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The end of The End Times. [MASSIVE SPOILERS!]

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
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#2
Holy crap! Is that the last page of Archaon? Who is the being that is falling in the sorry?
 

Shareya

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#4
It's the last page of the big End Times book that is out in some days. Can't really be sure who is the last fucker there! Could be the remains of Sigmar? Mr super powered Emperor? Nagash? We don't know for sure.
 

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
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214
#7
So I'm guessing whole new world with whole new setting.
Doesn't look good :(
Il hold complete judgement until I see what's happening after the end though :rolleyes:
 

Blutsauger

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#8
My motivation to buy into 9th edition just took a steep nosedive, but we'll wait and see what the rules are like I guess.
 

Zephyr

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#12
For those getting burning retinas reading that here's the text:

“And so did the world fell to oblivion.

The hungry rift in the middle of the lands of men devoured reality. It expanded slowly at first, but then it did with the hunger of a savage fire.

Invigorated, the gates at the poles broke free from their chains and joined the feast of their sister.

The peoples of the world beheld their doom and cried in desperation.

There were not two observers who saw the same. Some saw fire burning in the skies, others saw a whirlwind of icy stars, some others saw colossal tentacles and maws full of teeth drooling the very essence of chaos. Perhaps the Chaos Gods ascended their champions to daemonhood for the battles that took place amongst the flames, but it mattered little. The truth of those desperate wars was lost.

The Oak of Ages was the last to disappear. The sad driads’ song resounded beneath the pale skies while Athel Loren perished. With his passing, the Tapestry that held time and space together shrink and unraveled. Twisted by unnatural forces, it dissolved into nothingness. That terrible act of destruction could last the blink of an eye, or millennia. The Chaos Gods were not tied to time, and thus they did not notice it. Bored of their victory, they turned their backs to the destruction they had wrought, and so did the Great Game start anew in other worlds. In doing this, they did not notice the tiny dot of light that stumbled in the infinite darkness… the blazing essence of what was once a man.

He fell through the storms of absolute blackness, swinging for eons in the invisible tides. Then a shining orb appeared, the ferocious heart of a world as cold as the very abyss. Desperate, the being clung to the orb with a strength that could shake mountains. He stared firmly at the void and, from the darkness, the void stared back at him. It held tight to the sphere, regaining his lost strength. He reached with his hands, and a miracle took shape.

What would happen tomorrow? What about the untold legends and the cycle of the stars?

It truly was the End Times.

But also the beginning…"
 

hairyjeff

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
583
#13
I think this translates as " Look guys, we're f*&*&d, so let's rip it all down and try again. Do you think they're dumb enough to pay for it all AGAIN?".
 

Malisteen

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#14
I doubt they're expecting us to by it all again. I mean, if some of us do, I'm sure they'd be happy, but this whole end times deal is only happening because they already lost us. Whatever remained of the fantasy community wasn't worth saving, we bought so little. Blame them for letting it get so far, sure. Blame them for the decisions that brought us here. Blame them for running what was once the premier fantasy minis game and their own flagship product line into the ground.

But I wouldn't extend that animosity to the the end times or their inevitable conclusion, or even the new edition, regardless of whether you buy into it. Fantasy had already failed, to the point that they couldn't justify continuing it, to the point that they had seriously considered just dropping it flat out. Instead they they gave us a huge send off. If anything, that indicates a considerable amount of respect for the game and its history and its remaining players, that they would put as much effort as they have into saying goodbye.

Again, its a shame that their failed policies and decisions brought it to this point - their refusal to see the rising prices per model combined with rising model count per army destroying the game's accessibility, the glut of factions making the game impossible to stock, their predatory retail practices destroying local game communities, their refusal to meaningfully interact with their consumers or encourage local communities with organized play support and their rejection of competitive play in general allowing competitors to strip away game-oriented players, letting the game world go without meaningful development for so long that it became boring and stagnant, their trade, internet, and legal policies alienating condumers in a social media age where that matters more than ever...

I mean yeah, GW made a lot of terrible mistakes, which absolutely killed fantasy as we knew it, and yes, I'm quite bitter about that. But it was already dead when the end times began. What we got in the end times was, imo, a rather dignified burial, all things considered, and I'm quite thankful for it.

Doesn't necesarily mean I'm on board for 9e, though.
 
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Malisteen

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#15
Apparently the incarnates are winning, and nearly save the world, when Mannfred in typical fashion picks the absolute worst moment to pull a star scream (having thrown in with Be'Lakor after Nagash sold Manny out to the elves to secure his place in the incarnate avengers), ruining everything for everyone forever.
 

El Syf

Crypt Horror
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
578
#16
If it doesn't have chaos in the name you're screwed!
Out of all the routes they could have gone down, chaos spills out of control and kills everything? I've been a big supporter of the end times thus far but this is too much. Now I'm wishing for once there was an instant win button for the good guys.
And what of all the characters who are important to each race but didn't even get a mention?
In 40k the chaos munchkins have trouble getting out of the eye of terror yet in fantasy they actually manage to destroy everything, where's Draigo when you need him?!
 

Malisteen

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#17
What, it ends exactly like they always said it would, and now your shocked and disappointed? EDIT: lord, do I hate animated auto-smilies with no apparent option to disable them. ugh. *insert non-animated, non-image emote indication that my comment was meant to be facetious and lighthearted rather than some sort of jab*

Actually, even if it does have chaos in the name, you're still screwed. Lizardmen got out of there, though. And there was a batch of wood elves that also escaped to some extra-dimensional refuge. The white dwarf sidebar implies skaven will whisk Skavenblight away to a safe haven as well. I would not be entirely shocked if Nagash is able to slip back to his pyramid before the complete end and pull the same sorts of shenanigans for sylvania (though it seems far more likely to me that he'll eat it to Settra). The glowing essence of what was once a man is almost certainly Sigmar/Franz, grabbing the fruit of the oak of ages to found a new human world. So bubblehammer could still be a thing, with at least that much continuity.

Maybe.

Not exactly holding my breath here. But seriously, they actually followed through on the ending they always foreshadowed. Good for them, imo.
 
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najo

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#18
If it doesn't have chaos in the name you're screwed!
Out of all the routes they could have gone down, chaos spills out of control and kills everything? I've been a big supporter of the end times thus far but this is too much. Now I'm wishing for once there was an instant win button for the good guys.
And what of all the characters who are important to each race but didn't even get a mention?
In 40k the chaos munchkins have trouble getting out of the eye of terror yet in fantasy they actually manage to destroy everything, where's Draigo when you need him?!
The warhammer world is in the realm of chaos. Always has been. Makes sense.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
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#19
I doubt they're expecting us to by it all again. I mean, if some of us do, I'm sure they'd be happy, but this whole end times deal is only happening because they already lost us. Whatever remained of the fantasy community wasn't worth saving, we bought so little. Blame them for letting it get so far, sure. Blame them for the decisions that brought us here. Blame them for running what was once the premier fantasy minis game and their own flagship product line into the ground.

But I wouldn't extend that animosity to the the end times or their inevitable conclusion, or even the new edition, regardless of whether you buy into it. Fantasy had already failed, to the point that they couldn't justify continuing it, to the point that they had seriously considered just dropping it flat out. Instead they they gave us a huge send off. If anything, that indicates a considerable amount of respect for the game and its history and its remaining players, that they would put as much effort as they have into saying goodbye.

Again, its a shame that their failed policies and decisions brought it to this point - their refusal to see the rising prices per model combined with rising model count per army destroying the game's accessibility, the glut of factions making the game impossible to stock, their predatory retail practices destroying local game communities, their refusal to meaningfully interact with their consumers or encourage local communities with organized play support and their rejection of competitive play in general allowing competitors to strip away game-oriented players, letting the game world go without meaningful development for so long that it became boring and stagnant, their trade, internet, and legal policies alienating condumers in a social media age where that matters more than ever...

I mean yeah, GW made a lot of terrible mistakes, which absolutely killed fantasy as we knew it, and yes, I'm quite bitter about that. But it was already dead when the end times began. What we got in the end times was, imo, a rather dignified burial, all things considered, and I'm quite thankful for it.

Doesn't necesarily mean I'm on board for 9e, though.
I think you are WAY to quick to fully blame GW on this.

I think its simple, fantasy was the first. It has grown over the years. We've played larger and larger games with it, because most of us wanted too. The current edition many of us feel is the best. It had problems, but those problems were not all in GW's control. Things like the generic nature and 3rd party options for alternatives to the miniature line and companies whose whole business model is making alternatives to fantasy plays a role in this too. Many players were buying armies from other sources than GW, this drives up prices, then higher prices and all of us playing larger and larger games drives players to find cheaper options.

Fantasy has been supported as best as they could support it and get a return I'm sure. The send off its getting (with hope of rebirth of some kind) is fitting. It shows respect to us fans as you have said. This path was set in stone long before the competitors to GW showed up. Honestly, with fantasy being as generic and as successful as it was, meant that copy cats would come to the party. But the market is niche and only has some many of us to support it.

I think the feedback is what drove fantasy into the ground. But I don't think they are done with the property. We know liazardmen and skaven made it out, chaos will be there, the incarnates have great power tied to the winds of magic and those winds are a part of the realm of chaos itself.

Let's see what happens before we give up hope. Even though the sky fell, burned up and disappeared :tongue:
 

Malisteen

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#20
Competition drives prices down, not up, as firms that charge more for their products lose market share to those that charge less. That is exactly what happened woth fantasy, and it is absolutely gw's fault for not seeing it. There are two ways to respond, either find a way to lower prices, or find a way to distinguish your brand as a superior good. GW opted for the latter, with ever more impressive, more detailed models, and that could have worked, except that that strategy was irreconcilably at odds with the battle scale game they were producing. A hobby game cannot survive without fresh blood, and picking up warhammer fantasy in 8e was simply prohibitavely expensive. There's no real way around that.

What happened was inevitable, and was only exacerbated by their many moves over the last many years wearing away the loyalty of their consumers and retailers, allowing their competitors to market themselves as companies that care about games and gaming communities, 'unlike those other guys'.

Hopefully the lessons of Oldhammer's death have been taken to heart, and hopefully newhammer will get the chance it needs do demonstrate such. We'll see. I'm not holding my breath, but I'm not passing out torches & pitchforks, either.
 

Shareya

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#21
I was going to utter the same thoughts on this subjects.

Warhammer Fantasy is INCREDIBLY expensive, it's a hobby you will just touch unless you have a lot of spare money. While 40k is popular due to extra grimdark and Space Marines, than it's also cheaper, lot cheaper actually. I am pretty sure more people would dare to try fantasy if they did not have to go bankrupt for it.
 

hairyjeff

Crypt Horror
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583
#22
My only big disagreement with Najo's post is that of the 3rd party models. Now, I'm not talking re-casts - that is immoral, illegal, and just greed. But many other model manufacturers were going long before GW. Some were bought out, some litigated out of existence, some died a natural death. It seems contradictory to blame them for undermining GW, when most of them are making models for their own game systems, which we as players have chosen as better/cheaper/ more readily available to use in our armies. I use both Mantic and GW models in both game systems - only one complains. GW's habit of trying to claim IP on historical and ancient mythological ideas and creatures has been a constant irritation to myself and many other historians, professional and amateur.And it has lined the pockets of the legal system, money that could have cut prices of models. But what has destroyed the game has been their blindness to the glaringly obvious - bigger armies at higher prices aren't going to sell. Yes, the models are some of the best available, but that doesn't convince a harassed mum or dad who's already in shock at paying out for a rule book, and then discovering they need another one for the army, and then that they have to have models to a certain amount of units and a character (or more), and then they need templates, and so on and so on….. The boxed sets were a great introduction, but the basic business model became one of squeezing the customer. It's a shame, because they had it all in their hands, but lost their way. I really hope they can find the way back.
 

najo

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#23
I wasn't saying that GW tried to claim the ownership over generic fantasy. Just the opposite. Because they can't, it allowed competitors to make fantasy models that worked very well in warhammer.

And that part I said abut minis is true. Most of the major fantasy model manufacturers (mantic, avatars of war, raging heroes, etc) came about after GW had established warhammer. In fact, most of the earlier manufactures of fantasy miniatures either are out of business or they are basically making figures for D&D. I'm not saying those companies can't do that. I'm saying it was inevitable that Warhammer being generic in a lot of ways would fall prey to competitors. 40k is IP that can't happen too.
 

najo

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#25
@Seneschal your post should be in the other thread with the discussion about no more army restrictions. Apparently we can build anything we want. No minimum units, no minimum core, no max heroes or lords. No cap on duplicates. Storm of Magic monsters are in. Cats and Dogs living together!
 
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