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The magic phase, and you.

Abhorash.

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
282
#1
Ok, so ive been feeling a little off lately with my vampire counts, every game ive played recently starts out with me dominating, than something tragic happens (irressistable infernal gateway, hellcannon shot at my general, an assassin...etc.) so instead of calling my opponent lucky, ive started to blame it on my magic phase. How does your magic phase go? or how should a vampire's magic phase go? for me its like 1 invocation, 2 CoY, and a wind of undeath... should i be healing and raising a lot more? because i feel that im really not using my vamps up to there fulllest lately.
 

Drakim

Skeleton
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Messages
92
#2
I have to say the exact same is happening to me. The magic phase always seems to ruin the battle for me. I went lore of fire in my last battle, with no less than five power stones (and several regular vampires), against puny dark elves. I couldn't even kill enough of his squishy elite troops to pay for the power stones. ._.

Magic simply isn't reliable enough to be competitive with regular shooting when it comes to dissing out damage. You can fail to reach the casting value, you can get miscast, the enemy can use his dispel dice, or a dispel scroll, and then you can get a low number on the D6 or 2D6 hits you cause. THEN you finally get to wound. This is presuming you even have the right spells you want. I seem to miss Gaze of Nagash every time I roll for my four spells.

All regular bow or crossbow shooting needs to do is to hit, and then it can wound. There is just so much less that can go wrong.
 

Abhorash.

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
282
#3
exactly, i think its a sign that we must stick with raising and healing rather than GoN, and CoY maybe.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#4
I've been playing with a heavily restricted comp system, with only 6 power dice and a Corpse Cart... though skull staff and Lord of the Dead on my Lord goes some way to helping that! It's not exactly a powerhouse phase, but I kinda like it this way, where I really have to work to get the benefit...
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#5
Relying to heavily on your magic phase can be quite bad, because as mentioned it is a very unreliable phase. One bad role can end it all for you.

Firstly I would question why are you relying to heavily on magic, how many PD are we talking here? Ideally I think a VC army should have no more than 10 really, using the other points to bump up units, try and be a bit better in the combat phase. If you do this your actual army can do damage as well as the spells.

Secondly, yes the Lore of Vampires generally does work better for us, it was designed for us in the first place xD Priority should really go to making sure your units are sufficiently healed and combat capable. Remember that if a unit is entirely wiped out, no more raising it back. So you need to look at what the unit could be facing , whether it be concentrated fire power from archers etc, or are they going to be charged / flanked etc. Try and make sure your units, especially the ones with characters in, stay at least 15 strong for RnF.

Secondly don’t forget that VHD is most probably one of the best spells in the game. You should be using it to your advantage. You can potentially do more damage with a well placed flank attack than from casting CoY or WoU. I personally would save those spells for when IoN or VHD is not needed / feasible.

In regards to using other lores – yes they can be used, and they can be used well. Firstly make sure you take a lore that suits the situation and army you are facing, Taking the Lore of Metal against an army made of predominantly low armoured RnF is of course a waste. Secondly you will still have access to IoN, and I would make sure that has the priority. Finally, again as I said above, using different lores with a more combat orientated force can be more effective, as with more troops hopefully you can absorb more damage before healing, and thus can use your PD more offensively.

I would however in an army that is taking their main lord with a different lore, make sure I have a vamp with the Book of Arkhan, or a Necro with VHD. As mentioned that spell can win a game if used at a critical point.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Messages
124
#6
Im playing a lot of comped tournaments lately and I have almost exclusively been 1 diceing IoN and 1 diceing Raise dead with any vamp that has no +1 summon powers unless he can heal casualties.

I rarely use Van Hels either as it rarely goes off due to the opponent holding dice for it and I find I can get more raises off early because of them holding dice. Also I have found that if I do not even try to cast it for 4-5 turns my opponent sometimes forgets it and doesnt save dice so that if I need it on turn 5-6 I can get it off.

The next tourney I have is the same type of comp as lord fear just mentioned and I do like the low magic cap, makes everything count

It brings the game down to more combat orientated and removes the chance of any miscasts.

As such my magic phase (apart from 1,2,2,1,1,2 times) is pretty reliable and serves me well.
 
Joined
May 17, 2010
Messages
1
#7
Generally I agree with what has been said above. I never use anything other than the Law of the Vampires and find that RD, IoN and VHD are where you should be concentrating.

The other spells can be useful but the good thing about these is that each wizard can cast them as many times as they have power dice for and all have a relatively low casting value and can easily be cast 80% of the time with 2D6. This limits the risk of rolling a miscast and means that if you do cast your opponent will need to waste 2 or possible even 3 of their dispell dice to be sure of dispelling it.

I have recently beaten (one Massacre and one Solid Victory) a friend of mines Empire Army (I know beating the Empire doesn't count) twice with my 2250 point army. I used the same list each time and even though second time around he used lots of magic items to stop my magic phase he failed. I had a Lv4 Vampire, Lv1 Vampire and Lv Necromancer, Book or Arkhan, Black Periapt and Master of Black Arts so had 11 PD each phase.

He was so scared of my VHD and Book of Arkhan that he would hold back 3 or 4 of his dispel dice each turn (he was using the rod of power or whatever its called that allows him to store up to 3 magic dice from any phase). This meant that I was able to cast RD or IoN 4 times each magic phase.
 

Yanda

Black Knight
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
376
#8
I disagree DoN. I like VDM but if you play regularly your opponent will see it coming. I personally think IoN is a better spell. The ability to heal our own units makes it a very overpowered spell that can be cast with 1 dice at times. The ability to heal a group of black knights that are on the verge of dying or healing a Wraith vs an opponent that struggles to fight etheral can be game changing. So while my opponents waiting for me to cast VDM all magic phase hes letting my little heals go through giving me a better chance to get outnumber if they get into combat and a better chance to make units auto-break. Why even bother taking the book of arkhan? Everyone I play started saving 1 dice no matter what I cast to stop me from using the book, now they keep 2 or more to ensure they can dispel it or to see if I have any other bound items. This "Wait till the end" style of dispelling can play right into your hands if you use VDM and the Book as Psycology. Besides half the time I want to take the charge so I dont have to go through 2 combats before I can heal the group backup. Ghoul Tarpit for the win.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#9
Well if they're saving all their dice for VHD and letting IoN go through so easily, then that should tell you which is the "better" spell, or at least which is most feared. At the end of the day they're both top spells and win us many a game...
 

Abhorash.

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
282
#10
I have either 10 or 12 power dice in every list. I guess i should stop wasting every cast on CoY and Wind of Undeath. Also why is Book of Arkhan so crucial, and considered so devastating? i get some aspects of it, but all i have ever accomplished with it is casting it on some GG in CC... so, how do you use it?
 

Yanda

Black Knight
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
376
#11
The book is so useful because it casts VDM at Power level 3. So your opponent needs to roll a 3 to dispel it. VDM is incredibly useful as it aids us giving us additional movement to position ourselves in benifital locations. This can help you get flanks, get out of charge vision, get you into combat where the opponent thought you were out of range, get a unit back in combat that is far from the battle and more. It also gives you ASF and Re-Roll Misses (Like hatred but not forced to overrun). Its a really good spell and its uses are infinite when it comes to tactics and options to help us win combats. It really is a great spell, and when playing VC an opponent has to keep in mind which characters have the spell and where.
 

Dklyn

Crypt Horror
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
550
#12
I like a strong magic phase, but that's has more to do with preference than strategy. It also has to do with the fact that one of my main opponents plays dwarves and he generally packs a lot of dispel dice.
But I find that danse and CoY are both really fun and useful spells: I find CoY can be potentially devestating on the following turn if not dispelled and is a great way to drain them of their power dice the following turn (power lvl 8 means that if they want to be sure to get rid of it they'll need at least 3 dice). If you have two wizards getting it off a magic phase, then his magic phase is pretty much shut down or he can watch one (or both) of his units lose 1/3 of their troops. Pretty insidious and absolutely hilarious.
Danse is just an all around great spell that can be recast several times. Having a necromancer to make sure you have it is always important. If you have an important Close Combat in there, having them reroll misses is fantastic, as is ASF. If you're going magic heavy, I'd also recommend using a corpse cart and one or two bound spell items. These Power level 3 items (ASF from corpse cart) are a great way to drain their dispel dice. Best part is being power level two means the opponent will probably only use 1 dispel dice to get rid of it, and 1/3 of the time it'll go through anyways. Boo yah! :)
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
99
#13
Yanda said:
I disagree DoN. I like VDM but if you play regularly your opponent will see it coming. I personally think IoN is a better spell. The ability to heal our own units makes it a very overpowered spell that can be cast with 1 dice at times. The ability to heal a group of black knights that are on the verge of dying or healing a Wraith vs an opponent that struggles to fight etheral can be game changing. So while my opponents waiting for me to cast VDM all magic phase hes letting my little heals go through giving me a better chance to get outnumber if they get into combat and a better chance to make units auto-break. Why even bother taking the book of arkhan? Everyone I play started saving 1 dice no matter what I cast to stop me from using the book, now they keep 2 or more to ensure they can dispel it or to see if I have any other bound items. This "Wait till the end" style of dispelling can play right into your hands if you use VDM and the Book as Psycology. Besides half the time I want to take the charge so I dont have to go through 2 combats before I can heal the group backup. Ghoul Tarpit for the win.
From the sounds of this you run a magic heavy raise style list. And your points are very valid for this. However running a combat list (I normally have 5-6 PD at 2500 level) means book of arkhan is much more essential because the danse is so much more essential. Holding the book back for one or two turns is a great way to lull the opponent into assuming you dont have it, bring it out for that perfect charge after you have sucked his dice and hopefully a scroll or two away and it easily repays its 35 pts.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#14
The Book of Arkhan is amazing! If your opponent is saving DD dice for the VDM, then those are DD dice that are NOT being used to dispel all your other spells. So, 2 DD minimum per VDM and 1 DD min for the BoA.... that could give you free reign (or pretty close to it) at getting the rest of your spells off.

Alternately, spam the crap out of VDM until he is out of DD... then use BoA (which maybe was forgotten) :D

Using the BoA at the end of the Magic phase to draw out Dispel Scrolls seems to be my favourite hobby :innocent:
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,549
#15
I try to really on the magic phase as little as possible, I only bring 7 PD usually so they need to be applied carefully, though I usually just go for the CoY on ther biggest unit and hope they forget about it in there phase :vampire3:

On a mostly unrelated note can you use scrolls to dispell a RiP spell in a subsequent (check out that fancy word) phase?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#16
Capt Rubber Ducky said:
On a mostly unrelated note can you use scrolls to dispell a RiP spell in a subsequent (check out that fancy word) phase?
I do not believe so. Pretty sure that Dispel Scrolls can only be used vs a spell when its first cast (pg 122 BRB, Dispel Scroll entry states that it can only be used vs a spell during the initial casting)
 
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