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Grish

Liche
True Blood
Oct 11, 2007
5,319
Winnipeg, MB
Nurturing and decay are the same...? What? They may be different aspects of change, but grouping everything that changes and saying "look, they change, therefore they're the same concept" is silliness.

Eh I don't buy this argument at all, that all positive emotions feed chaotic demons bent on slaughter.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Because I lot of emotions are the same irregardless of whether they are produced for a good or bad reason. For example:

Man challenges enemy because pride dictates him to and thus feeds Khorne........

This can easily describe a Brettonian Knight (supposedly good) or a Chaos Lord (supposedly bad), the cause may be different but the end effect still produces the same result. Nurgle does actually represent growth and decay as described in the old warhammer books, his power can temporarily wax until it eclipses all the other chaos gods and then fade until he is the weakest in exactly the same wat as the aforementioned cycle.
Why do you think that so many people who start off with good intentions end on the path to ruin. Because a lot of the time (though admittedly not all) good intentions still produce results that can be used or perceived as negative.

As for the pain / pleasure......well it is true, I'm not going into details but trust me you can get to a certain point where excessive pain can produce excessive pleasure......
 

Belladamma Voltaire

Vyrkos Primogen
True Blood
Aug 15, 2007
2,829
Manchester, UK
Nurture and decay is a simple point as to some people, there are limits in parenting and when a line is crossed the parent is rotting the mind of the child they are are nurturing. An example of this would be someone teaching their child to be xenophobic. These limits are in different places for different people, like the pain and pleasure mentioned earlier.

As far as slaughter goes, the motive for the Daemons slaughtering everything has to be ascertained. The Daemons who attacked a Dwarfen stronghold to simply stop them remaking the Master Rune of Dominion is not a mindless act surely? This was an attack led by Khorne daemons too!

The problem for a lot of people is the lack of perspective on what Chaos is. It transcends good and bad mutating into the grey areas we know and love. Disciple of Nagashs reason is perfect for this. What difference is there on a battlefield for a Bretonnian Knight and a Chaos Warrior who challenge their opponents to a duel?
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Aug 19, 2007
3,472
Like GW says, The dark 4 are just the most powerful gods of chaos. There are literally hundreds of them. Trying to sum every feeling into the dark four is a losing game. While it is the subconcious of the living who fuel the gods it is by no means as black and white as Killing = Khorne, Having sex = Slaanesh. There are also "good" gods and they do not have to be some off product of Khorne or whatnot. Man creates gods through powerful traditions and beliefs, as do orcs and so on.

I am not however disputing that rage(for example) is Khornes thing. What I mean is, an violent act dedicated to another god wouldnt.

The only sentient beings in the legions of daemons are the gods and the daemon princes. The rest are just vessels of thoughts of the god that spawned them. Daemons as you say are indeed not just rampart beings who commits mindless slaughter.

What difference is there on a battlefield for a Bretonnian Knight and a Chaos Warrior who challenge their opponents to a duel?

Khorne champion has selfish motives that drives him. He wants to put many a skull on Khorne´s throne to reach daemonhood, or atleast become a powerful and feared warlord. Even if he has not sweared allegience to a specific god he is still fighting to get seen by the gods and to be blessed with immortality. Immortality and power is the selfish nature of the chaos warrior.

The knights motives might be unknown but you can be pretty sure who started this fight. The knight would fight beacause he is provoked to do so in order to halt the slaughter that would ultimately follow if the chaos warrior were to be left alive. The knight in return are a champion of nature and virtue, he puts his faith into The Lady(arguebly some sort of physical representation of Isha, the elven god of growth and fertility I believe).
 

The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Dec 23, 2007
2,586
Eire
It still produces the same effect though. Good people can still do bad things, there's nothing there to stop them from it. That very Knight might go on to become a chaos lord himself, maybe from being thrown out of his knighthood for being overly blood thursty, or by jelous rivals, or the most common, being seduced by the promises of chaos. Slaanesh could mask as the Lady of the Lake to him in a vision, and therefore corrupt him into doing un knightly things, like, hmm I don't know, maybe killing peasants for being "corrupted by chaos" or something else entirely against his code of Chivalry (sp?)

As for Lesser daemons being a mindless part of their God, I don't believe that is 100% true. In the Liber Chaotica, it said that plague bearers (maybe not all of them, I'm not sure) were once human, but Nurgle changed them into cyclopian monsters, that were rotten to the bone.

And finally, as for other Gods in Warhammer, there has to be, but they have things in common with the chaos Gods. So you worship the good guy, and you still help the bad guy.
Once strong enough belief exists, so does the God. Although the big four are still the largest, and have the biggest "fan base" of worshipers.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Aug 19, 2007
3,472
Why yes of course but that would be outside of the context. I dont see how things he might do or become is relevant to what the knight is doing right now. He is infact entering combat to kill the chaos lord and by the very definition of the word denying the choas warrior a chance to keep on killing. He is doing so in belief he is doing The Lady's work and this action probably saved alot of lives. I´d say the very combat itself would tap into Khorne´s realm but the actual kill isnt done in his name at all, infact khorne's will would if anything have been undone at that very moment.

So it does not produce the same effect. A god needs worship to grow in strength, not just random actions. It is after all by the power of thoughts they exist and if I wholesomly believe I am doing Khaines great work and have no thought whatsoever about for example Khorne then Khorne does not exist in my mind.
As a result he will lose power, especially if a large group direct their thoughts and celebrations to other gods as well. That is chaos, thoughts and belief in actions, not just the act of killing.

While being mindless themselves, the gods is not. Thus they have a guiding will but they are without choice and any behaviour suggesting they have a choice is merely something that seems that way, ie like slaaneshi daemons might seem to take delight in pleasure but really they´re just doing what they were created to do and dont have any choice in the matter.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Oct 11, 2007
5,319
Winnipeg, MB
I talked to a friend who has been in this since the beginning, and apparently in the first Warhammer book (? not sure what book he was referring to) there were demons of Law, among others. Anyone familiar with that?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
I'm aware that way waaaaaaaaaaay back there was loads and loads of different daemons and gods, some of which wouldn't be considered evil incarnate.

But then I find that evil and good happens to be a point of view for example I am a pagan, from my point of view the things I do are ok, not evil etc, but from some orthodox Christians point of view I am probably a devil worshipper and will spend the afterlife in hell. (By the way not putting anything down, just using it as a reference).

I think that particular point can be applied quite easily to happenings in the warhammer world, say you've got a guy who's killed people for his own valid reason (meh, he thought they were mutants) but the majority of the public believed he did so because he was doing it for Khorne, so where does the belief theory stand then, is the belief of the man stronger than the belief of many or vica versa?
 

Ghouly

Liche
True Blood
Jan 15, 2008
5,517
Prince George
Have any of you read the new demon army book Demons even the lesser ones have free will they can think for themselves for example there was a Bloodthirstier who got jealous of Korn and tried to kill him.
 

Belladamma Voltaire

Vyrkos Primogen
True Blood
Aug 15, 2007
2,829
Manchester, UK
Skarbrand was far from being a lesser Daemon. He was mightiest of the Bloodthirsters placing him in the second in command position. He's going to have free will simply because its better for Khorne that he does. His problem with Khorne was based on his own free way and the sudden desire, as planted by Tzeentch, for change.
 

Raziel

Crypt Horror
Jan 14, 2008
550
My bed
I read somewhere that Khorne's fed by all war, doesn't have to be dedicated to him, FYI. Oh, and Nurgle also represents the fear of death.
 

Dark Lord Nihilus

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jul 8, 2008
1,408
I know this goes way back but just to clear up some confusion. And be forewarned it will be based on 40k because the two are interrelated, especially in terms of chaos.

The first believer was the first sentient life. There was nothing before there was a believer.

That's actually incorrect. The first sentient life, surprisingly, had no connection to chaos, whatsoever. In fact chaos was anathema to them.

there is an anti-chaos but its not necessarily good. The Anti-Chaos is actually the chaos itself. If the energy wins then it destroys itself, therefore the only way of letting Chaos die is to let Chaos win,

There are in fact two forces which have the capacity to destroy chaos, neither of these forces are "good" in the conventional sense. The first is chaos itself as Voltaire said. The second is the C'tan, and their active plot to spread the pariah gene.
 

Dark Lord Nihilus

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jul 8, 2008
1,408
The C'tan are definitely not the Old Ones....and I had warned that I was using 40k fluff to back up my statements, which ae obviously invalidated if 40k and fantasy do not exist in the same "universe", and the argument as to whether the two exist in the same universe is a very long, inconclusive, and off topic one, although their is evidence denoting either.

If they are within the same universe than the C'tan do factor in, if not than they don't.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
The current stance backed up by GW is that the two universes are separate. For the purposes of this discussion I think we should follow that route. The discussion on whether they could be the same universe or not is for another thread.
 

Belladamma Voltaire

Vyrkos Primogen
True Blood
Aug 15, 2007
2,829
Manchester, UK
I'm resurrecting this thread to coincide with the resurrection of the 'Vampires good/evil?' thread as I believe the two are connected in some way. You've read my argument, now come on, give me a rebuttal!
 

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