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#51
Hm. Quite the underwhelming errata/faq.

Was hoping to have the stubborn with more ranks rule have some kind of benefit for the deadites.

Oh well.

Helm/MOTBA/Black Periapt/Coach errata clear a few things up at least.

noticed dwarves didnt lose the dice pool contributions from their runelords-thanes-anvil. ick.
 
Joined
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#52
Yes, Dwarf antimagic is the shizz. Extra dice from Runesmiths/Lords, multiple runes of spellbreaking (as opposed to only 1 dispel scroll), and because we only dispel as an army at +2, if we fail to dispel we can still attempt further dispels.

If you roll double 6 for your magic phase, a properly tuned Runelord will change the ratio from 12/6 to 11/9 + spellbreakers.

Only thing you are getting off are IFs
 
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#53
yea, I always run into the +2 banner too.
I just end up chucking 6 dice at Summon Undead Horde and Vanhels with thralls/necros when i need something to go off against them.

Definatly an uphill battle against them these days.
(least they dont have cupped hands...)
 
Joined
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#54
Kalandros said:
Tamodan Varison said:
For MOVEMENT purposes, the Black Knights use Ethereal rules. in no other situation.
Of course it only does in that situation, it would be ridiculous otherwise... Any person with common sense would see that. Yet as we both now, not everyone playing warhammer uses common sense, some insist on playing literally by the book and FAQ :thumbsdown:. And were excactly does it say that it is for movement purposes only...?

page 45 'for movement purposes only, a model mounted upon a Skeletal Steed is treated as ethereal'
Unfortunately, the FAQ tells us to ignore the ethereal rules in the VC book. Yet let us stop this discussion before some maniac tries to use it :tongue:
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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#55
The DireWolf question is a very valid one, the are now not cav so yes I think they do now heal D6 wounds. I am still not sure whether that makes them worthwhile though.

As for the Wraiths - well I think if we all use common sense then of course they should crumble, especially as the have the Undead rule.
 
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#56
Not good, wolves arent fast cav, bats are no longer infantry so only get 1 wound with IoN making both of them worse at all of their uses. and most importatly there is no points reduction for the fear effect on core infantry.

4 points for a zombie, no need to test for fear to charge, no auto breaks etc, 8 for a skeleton or ghoul. Fear simply isnt worth the cost anymore. skavenslaves are better than zombies for half the points and can take equipment.

Time to swap armies im afraid, VC have no plusses and a myriad of minuses compared to 7th
 
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#57
Disciple of Nagash said:
The DireWolf question is a very valid one, the are now not cav so yes I think they do now heal D6 wounds. I am still not sure whether that makes them worthwhile though.

As for the Wraiths - well I think if we all use common sense then of course they should crumble, especially as the have the Undead rule.
Dire wolves still aren't classed as infantry so i'd assume we cant raise D6 of them, they may not be cavalry anymore but war beasts aren't infantry either.

i dont see much of a problem with the etherial rule, its exactly the same as the one in our book, and as has already been said our undead special rule covers wraiths and spirit hosts so they'd suffer from crumbling as our special rules overrule the BRB
 
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#58
I think the biggest changes are not in the ereta, but in the rulebook itself.
Fear and Terror has been nerfed majorly and as loquar said, our troops still cost the same. Fear now only forces the enemy units in CC to take a Leadership-test and maybe go to WS1. That's right folks, no auto-break, no charge prevention. All our core-units are more or less worthless now...

Only thing I can think of that could potentially ballance this is if the 8th edition's magic-phase turns out to empower the us drastically in comparison to 7th edition's. That way we could balance the sucky troops with more, FREE sucky troops.
 
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#59
Yeah, unfortuately wolfs are now War Beasts, so the loss of "Fast Cavalry" was simply a nerf, since they didn't gain the ability to raise d6.

Summon Creatures of the Night kinda sucks, doesn't it?


Its tough to call the Black Knight rule, I'll ask at GW. I know what the spirit of the original rule was, but the FAQ says to ignore the (entire) rule and replace it with Ethereal. So maybe they MEANT to give our black knights a bit of a boost.

Time to swap armies im afraid, VC have no plusses and a myriad of minuses compared to 7th
I'm hearing a lot of this. But then again, its not like we became useless. We went from a top-2 army to a middle strength one. I don't play VC (or warhammer at all) to be uber-competative, I really like the fluff, the playstyle, and the models. I'm definately staying. If some people want to pout about not being able to defeat their opponents in the "purchase army book" phase anymore, let them.
 

Kalandros

Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
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#60
Its a change of pace, those who can't adapt are free to leave the army. They're definitely not doomed and not all that nerfed really, just adapt to the new system already! :D
 
Joined
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138
#61
I second the notion on adaptation. For me, I am lucky enough to just have to learn the new rules and not worry about what they were changed from in 7th. We still have a lot of combos with lords + equipment, magic lores, and new strategy that have yet to be seen.

I still think we are a force to be dealt with, we just need to focus on using our strengths and minimizing our weaknesses. Plus I am sure within 6-8 months we should see an Errata or FAQ for the 8th rules, so I will keep my gear in the VC camp!

- Strig
 

Nicodemus

Wight King
Joined
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402
#62
@ Black Coach are really good now if you are lucky you can have all 6 Effects 2 turn.

@ IoN. I hope the the IoN rule will overriding the rule book, if you can't rase up models in the unit the vampire stand in... well then he must have really BIG Shoulder Armour (Or what it's called =P), and if you can't heal yourself it's mean that you can't EVER (almost) heal you characters when you are in close combat because you have to see them.=S

@ Fear. Sure it's not as good as it use to be but still if you have Lore of death cast Doom and Darkenss and/or have Aura of Dark Majesty it's bad ass if they get ws 1, ZOMBIES CAN HIT. =D but EVERY one will have BSB now with the new rule so not that good.
 
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#63
ION when I was reading the main rulebook seemed like a buff spell. Buff spells didn't need LOS. If anyone wants to play it differently they can feel free to do it but they will not be playing me. I play for fun and if you make it unfun I will not play.

In 7th I never played the abusive broken lists. I played a fun list that could be beaten but got it's share of wins. But nothing that made people just want to scoop there models. I plan on doing the same in 8th. I have no desire to crush people. Crushing another player is not really fun for me or the other person.

Taking away the one thing that the VC do would be very unfun for me. If I can't raise away models within the area of effect, what purpose does it serve other than to make me easier to curb stomp. I think the 8th edition did plenty to nerf us I need no other nerfing.
 
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#64
8th did a lot to tone us down, but the most irritating thing for me is that the recent FAQs were not really thoroughly tested and are really bad-written, and leave us with huge questions and very much room for misunderstanding!

Yesterday i tried to use my black coach to suck the dice in my opponent's magic phase and he said: "Woah, since you do it in the beginning of magic, and the power pool is also formed at the beginning of magic, I as the active player (per page 10-11 in the rulebook) choose that you resolve your ability first and roll zero dice":O:O
I was in a happy mood and didn't hit him straight away, but to be honest i was really tempted!
 

Humaneater

Black Knight
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Messages
395
#66
Figured I'd start posting on a VC's forum now, since the new BRB = perfect excuse to play fantasy again. Besides, sick to death of Marines and 40k in general.

Some new rules highlights for me:

3 reasons to take Konrad in small games: 1 = PD's are more in number but less specific and spells are one per army, so I have no reason not to just take a 3 spell Necro (maybe on CC) and then take combat char's. 2 = Frenzy can now take a LD to not charge, and with a Necro as general in 12", Konrad takes it on LD7 which is a fairly average chance to pass. 3 = Being able to do lots of wounds to big units is key now, since if you dont whittle em down, they'll be getting a lot of attacks back ^^

2D6+M charge range and Supporting Attacks!!!!! I like this, just because its going to be fun in bigger games. 10x3 Wraiths anyone? 1500 pts of unkillable-ness.

Finally, we can use the ring against Infernal Gateway... Seems silly that one of the most common insta-kill mechanics in the game ignored the best trick to avoid it...

On the other hand there are soem gaping holes in this book, and things i just generally don't like.

The most obvious one seems to be the empire steam tank problem... Big lump of metal, that's IMMUNE to the Lore of Metal... Its immune to stuff with no Str value, and NONE of the spells in Lore of Metal have Str values (specifies in the Lore Trait or w/e its called, that lore of metal has no str value and is based off unmodified armour save of the target...).

As for VC's issues, I just think that they've completely changed the way we work. Before, our fundamental advantage was always charging and going first, because of our VHD. Now, its kinda irrelevant whether we go first or not, since killing models from the front rank doesn't remove attacks unless there are no models to make the attacks. What this means is that we're better off minimalising our Core (i.e. 25%) and just filling up with stuff that's gonna do the damage, like GG or Wraiths. And, to do it effectively, we need to take a lot of em, or we just won't be able to do enough wounds to get the CR. I get the feeling we're gonna feel less Character based, and more spammy and bloated to play with, since filling up with 10 wide units will just be soooo attractive to people who played with the Invo-spam list from 7th. The one army I decided NOT to play with was Skaven when i started WH, and the Bloated+Spammy is basically, what they are... I've enjoyed playing small games with VC's so far since the ghoul rush strigoi list is easier to pull off now our M4 footsloggers are better, but I'm not sure about playing VC's in bigger games... may stick with WoC in 2000+.

Oh, and now the Book of Arkhan is useless, since bound's now need PD to cast... I spose its a 3+ cast VHD evry turn till it fades, but tbh 1-dicing anything is risky now, the Natural 1 or 2 rule is gonna hurt that book alot. Since, 2-dicing, you may aswell cast the ordinary one anyway.

Along the same lines, CC's are looking a bit less attractive too, but I'm tempted to take 1 or 2 with Lodestones now, since a bad PD roll could hurt a lot (especially since I'm avoiding a caster heavy army in exchange for 1 or 2 Necro's and full Combat Characters otherwise). Balefire won't be as delicious as I found it before either, since people will be rolling lotsa dice for their spells anyway.

Overall I don't mind this book, I'm still indifferent as to which army I prefer playing with (VC's or WoC) but since I don't know a decent WoC forum I'll stick to VC's on here now.
 

Nicodemus

Wight King
Joined
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Messages
402
#67
Yesterday i tried to use my black coach to suck the dice in my opponent's magic phase and he said: "Woah, since you do it in the beginning of magic, and the power pool is also formed at the beginning of magic, I as the active player (per page 10-11 in the rulebook) choose that you resolve your ability first and roll zero dice":Osurprised
I was in a happy mood and didn't hit him straight away, but to be honest i was really tempted!
If I was you I would play as many Ethereal units as possible and then say that they don't take damage by Crumble and CR just to learn him a lesson. And if his still saying that BC can't take any dices kick him in the crutch, his genes are not allowed to spread.=P
Off course will Ethereal take damage from Crumble and CR and the BC will steal dices, sure BC. (Don't kick him in the crutch it's evil.=P)

2 = Frenzy can now take a LD to not charge, and with a Necro as general in 12", Konrad takes it on LD7 which is a fairly average chance to pass. 3 = Being able to do lots of wounds to big units is key now, since if you dont whittle em down, they'll be getting a lot of attacks back ^^
And if you have a BsB you can re-roll the test if you fail. ;)

I would say that CC with balefire are much better now because if you fail too cast a spell with a wizard that wizard are not allowed too cast more spells this magic phase so I would say that having a CC with Balefire could be really good.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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#68
Nicodemus said:
I would say that CC with balefire are much better now because if you fail too cast a spell with a wizard that wizard are not allowed too cast more spells this magic phase so I would say that having a CC with Balefire could be really good.
That is actually a really good point. Either they fail and can't cast any more spells, or they try and use more dice hopefully KABOOM! Hmmm
 

Nicodemus

Wight King
Joined
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Messages
402
#69
Disciple of Nagash said:
That is actually a really good point. Either they fail and can't cast any more spells, or they try and use more dice hopefully KABOOM! Hmmm
Yeah VC now have 2 really good anti magics ...units, BC and CC, the problem is that CC doesn't counts in the % in Core units so you need too take 100pts+ from Special, heroes or rare.

About models with 2d6 attack and more. I don't remember where I read this now but it was about a model that did 2d6 attack and in the rule book it say that you can't have more then 10 in a characteristic and then the person had asked GW if the model could get more than 10 attacks and GW sad no he can only have 10 attacks. Will this apply to every model that have 2d6+ attacks? Like CC and Mountain Chimera that have 4d6 attacks. I not saying that 10 attacks are bad but still. =P
But than again I can't remember if I read it on a forum or in a Errata so I not sure how good the facts are.
 
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#70
The thing about 2d6 attacks being capped at 10 is in the DOC errata, in the question about Dark Insanity. Also, remember the chimera is frenzied too, so it's 4d6+1 poisoned attacks!

While we're on the chimera topic... can it be VDM'ed or healed? If a vampire uses Transformation of Kadon, does he retain the undead rule? Or could we have a non-undead dragon in an undead unit? :s
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
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#71
TheZombieSquig said:
The thing about 2d6 attacks being capped at 10 is in the DOC errata, in the question about Dark Insanity. Also, remember the chimera is frenzied too, so it's 4d6+1 poisoned attacks!

While we're on the chimera topic... can it be VDM'ed or healed? If a vampire uses Transformation of Kadon, does he retain the undead rule? Or could we have a non-undead dragon in an undead unit? :s
As the spell doesn't say you lose the special rules of the model, you are still Undead. And you can still benefit from other vampiric powers.

I'm surprised by the DoC FAQ cap on 10 attacks. It's not really characteristics when you have to roll for it, imo.

A vampire with Sword of Bloodshed and Red Fury can have more than 10 attacks per round, he still doesn't have more than 7 attacks in his characteristics.
 

Johnny B

Grave Guard
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
283
#72
I spose its a 3+ cast VHD evry turn till it fades, but tbh 1-dicing anything is risky now, the Natural 1 or 2 rule is gonna hurt that book alot.
Failing to cast a bound spell doesn't stop the bearer casting normally; its the item that fails, not him/her.
 

Nicodemus

Wight King
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
402
#73
how do a unit/model see now? I have read the "line of sight" rule on page 10 but it doesn't say if a model see 90 degrees or 360 degrees, What I have heard it's gone but how do you decide which angles a model/unit see now then?
 
Joined
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#74
I am confused by what your opponent did @Nepenthe, since the BC abosorbs power dice, he needs to roll his dice right? I have yet to use a BC so iam a little concerned by this. Can anyone shed some light on this topic please?

Thanks!
-Strig
 

Nicodemus

Wight King
Joined
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Messages
402
#75
Strig said:
I am confused by what your opponent did @Nepenthe, since the BC abosorbs power dice, he needs to roll his dice right? I have yet to use a BC so iam a little concerned by this. Can anyone shed some light on this topic please?

Thanks!
-Strig
The BC's Evocation of Death rule say "at the start of every magic phase, the black Coach can absorb magical energy." And technical you don't have any Power Dices at the start of the Magic phase because you have t roll how many power dices you will have.

at page 30 in the rule book, the rule say that you roll how many power dice you have this magic phase at the start of the magic phase, so the question is what do you do first. Steal the power dice that's not existing (with other words you don't steal any power dices) or determine how many power dice you have.
 
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