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Emicrania

Wight King
Mar 3, 2014
486
Gothenburg, Sweden
Hi there, yesterday we played a 6 man (ofc man....) ,3 groupsgame with the expansion book , treasure and treachery if im right.
Pretty cool but gotta play it a bit more before decide.
However I was playn with a more experienced player and suggested me one thing.
to challenge a big block of dwarves and accept with my champion. Allegedly he would accept wih his general so I would be free to divide my blender attacks on his champion and bannerman.
Or if he would accept inly with his champ, the better cause I could focus his general.
Now this thing of choosing which dude to focus and wherever to make challenge with thd vampire is still confusing to me. Does anybody have a more clear idea of how do this works?
 

helemaalnicks

Grave Guard
Mar 22, 2014
249
Vampires aren't really good at challenges. Red fury is a commonly taken power, and it only works if you can score a bunch of unsaved wounds. With the saves and -1 to hits and high toughness of enemy characters, it's hard to get the most out of this ability.

If you do challenge, and because of it, you lose a combat, this is no problem if you're playing skaven. You can simply test on the general's leadership with steadfast and possibly a bsb. For undead however, combat resolution cannot be ignored this way, because you'll start to crumble. That is why typically vampires will try to break enemy units by scoring a lot of wounds and thus combat res against them.
 

helemaalnicks

Grave Guard
Mar 22, 2014
249
Emicrania said:
ok,but than focus enemy standard bearer or musician is a good thing,isn't it?

No, you can only kill models that are in the back of a unit, so it doesn't make a difference whether you attack a standard or musician or normal model.
 
Nov 13, 2013
927
Vancouver, Canada
The maxim to remember with Undead is this: one dead skeleton is two dead skeletons.

Generally speaking, every dead skeleton is 1 CR we are losing combat by, and thus taking wounds to crumble. WS2 T3 5+6++ just isn't resilient enough to do otherwise. You'll get the +4 SCR from ranks+banner, and perhaps up to 7 ACR from your blender lord, but that's it. Everything else is models coming off.

So this is where your champion comes in. Your opponent isn't going to decline a challenge and have you pick a character to send to the back of their unit, so it's just a matter of what will accept. However, even if they only accept with their champion you're still better off. Their champion has two attacks, which may well be hitting and killing two skeletons. Outside of a challenge that is killing 2 skeletons, and another 2 will die to crumble. In a challenge you're killing one skeleton, and one more is dying to crumble. That's 2 dead skeletons versus 4 dead skeletons. What's more, the champion is ALWAYS the first model raised, so he can do it all over again.

Unless you've trapped an enemy character in combat with your blender, and are about to pulverize him, there is no reason to ever NOT challenge with a skeleton champion. In fact, there is generally no reason to ever NOT challenge with an undead champion period (save the above circumstance). Not only are you denying downed bodies to your opponent, but you're also potentially denying them attacks if your champion is large enough and placed right. A unit of vargheists, for instance, run 1 or 2 wide, is denying a significant number of incoming attacks with a challenge. 2-wide is 80mm, meaning they're in base contact with 6 20mm enemies (4 straight on, 2 on the corners). Put the champion into a challenge and suddenly you have only 4 20mm enemies in base contact. Against a hostile horde that's 6 attacking models that you're denying.
 

Emicrania

Wight King
Mar 3, 2014
486
Gothenburg, Sweden
Thank you for the great explanation; visualize the crumbling effect in math really helped out.
however an infantry champion cannot block any of the other infatry model, isnt it?
 

Borgnine

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Jun 15, 2013
2,036
Pruszkow, Poland
That tip with visualizing that one dead skeleton are two dead skeletons was surely helpful - a simple thing, but can be omitted.

I'd only add that there is one particular exception to accepting with a champion, namely the chaos leaders - they get bonuses for each enemy killed in a challenge and by doing that you can screw yourself badly - at least that's how I think it is, maybe it's not that bad :rolleyes: But at least it's a step to turn challenges into what they should be, two leaders fighting together and not an annoyance of champions and denying attacks...
 

helemaalnicks

Grave Guard
Mar 22, 2014
249
Borgnine said:
That tip with visualizing that one dead skeleton are two dead skeletons was surely helpful - a simple thing, but can be omitted.

I'd only add that there is one particular exception to accepting with a champion, namely the chaos leaders - they get bonuses for each enemy killed in a challenge and by doing that you can screw yourself badly - at least that's how I think it is, maybe it's not that bad :rolleyes: But at least it's a step to turn challenges into what they should be, two leaders fighting together and not an annoyance of champions and denying attacks...

I'm playing against WoC tomorrow, should I prepare my fighting characters (wight king, baby vamp) for challenges?
 

Borgnine

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Jun 15, 2013
2,036
Pruszkow, Poland
helemaalnicks said:
I'm playing against WoC tomorrow, should I prepare my fighting characters (wight king, baby vamp) for challenges?

Chaos Warriors MUST issue challenges whenever it's possible, and being as strong as they are they will murder champions easily and at the same time, shield themselves from attacks from the rest of the unit - that's a bummer. On the other hand not responding to a challenge will make him put away your most capable warrior out of combat - and that's even more of a bummer, especially when you have only your blender to do damage. Lastly, big bad Chaos Lords are perfectly able to be better in single combat than our blenders, so that's a tough choice sometimes whether to really answer that.

I don't have this much experience myself, but I think having some challenge capabilities to kill his baby chaos heroes and champions would be beneficial. And even more - WoC tend to be low in numbers and tough to crack - our usual strategy of dealing sick amount of wounds with characters won't work as well here, so I think preparing for challenges would be quite viable.
 

helemaalnicks

Grave Guard
Mar 22, 2014
249
I was actually gonna use a master necromancer. I think it'll be alright, I have loads of killing blows in my army, and I was planning to turn the battles in my favour by using shadow magic and a corpsecart.

I'm especially looking forward to using -x ws on the opponents of graveguard, they'll have the banner of the barrows, for a potential 2+ to hit 2+ to wound.
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
Pirate Robot Ninja of Death said:
What's more, the champion is ALWAYS the first model raised, so he can do it all over again.




This is 7th edition rules. This is not true anymore, champions NEVER get raised, especially not if they got killed in a challenge.
What you suggest is that a champion challenges, gets killed, raised back, challenge again and so on and so on..... 8th edition thankfully got rid of that OP nonsense which made it far too easy for vamps to lock an opponent character into a continuous and unending challenge sequence.
Read the rules for raising models in our AB, champions do not get raised back from the dead, all you can ever raise are normal rank&file models which excludes champions.
 

helemaalnicks

Grave Guard
Mar 22, 2014
249
Skittelz1981 said:
Pirate Robot Ninja of Death said:
What's more, the champion is ALWAYS the first model raised, so he can do it all over again.




This is 7th edition rules. This is not true anymore, champions NEVER get raised, especially not if they got killed in a challenge.
What you suggest is that a champion challenges, gets killed, raised back, challenge again and so on and so on..... 8th edition thankfully got rid of that OP nonsense which made it far too easy for vamps to lock an opponent character into a continuous and unending challenge sequence.
Read the rules for raising models in our AB, champions do not get raised back from the dead, all you can ever raise are normal rank&file models which excludes champions.

"First, the champion is resurrected" is what it says in the AB. The champion gets raised first, then the musician. Page 26 under 'resurrecting fallen warriors'.
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
i know what ive been confusing, its the standard bearer that never gets raised.... ive been playing that wrong for a long time lol
 

Burnanation

Crypt Horror
Mar 29, 2010
573
Woodstock VA
You can direct attacks against a unit champion if he is not in combat.

Example 1:

Block of dwarves with hero/lord in it charge your block of skellies with your blender in it.

Challenge issued by the Dwarf Hero, accept with your skellie champ.
Blender or unit targets the dwarf champion not in the issued challenge, and the rest of the attacks go into the dwarf block.
Dwarf hero bashes your skellie to bits.

Your turn, raise skellie champ. Challenge issued. Accept with skellie champ.

Hopefully you have killed lots with your blender and now the Dwarves break.

If not, Dwarf turn, challenge, and now Vampire accepts or goes to the back. If he accepts the vampire is locked in combat until the Dwarf id dead, the Vampire is dead, or the dwarves break.

If the Vampire goes to the back, and your unit doesn't turn to dust, you raise the skellie champ, accept the next challenge with skellie champ.
 
Nov 13, 2013
927
Vancouver, Canada
Skittelz1981 said:
Wtf.... im a blind cunt on this one lol
this changes the whole freakin game o_O

Haha, yup. Skeleton champions are the best 10 points you can spend in this army, period :P Their utility is pretty ridiculous.


Since we're on the topic though, here's a few other things to keep in mind re: accepting challenges with a champion.

1) You don't get CR for multi-wounding a single-wound model...unless you're in a challenge. In that case the full value of all multiwounds is counted for CR (though remember, you can only overkill by 5).

2) You can't beat an already-dead model for extra CR, but everything striking at the same initiative step DOES. So the death hag on a cauldron and both attendants will get their attacks, but the star dragon ridden by a HE noble would not. Same goes for thunderstomps.

3) Some enemies (i.e. chaos characters and champions) get bonuses for being in challenges or killing things in challenges. Keep this in mind.

4) If an enemy is going to be steadfast/stubborn/win combat by the end of combat, they may well decline a challenge so that their character can go to the back, then make-way to wherever they wish next round of combat. People will frequently do this with mages, or combat characters that don't want to be fighting the blender lord in combat. Don't let them use this as an opportunity to hide from you.

5) Speaking of which, remember that you CANNOT ATTACK MODELS IN A CHALLENGE. Emphasis because it DOES mean that you can block models from attacking. If you're only in base-contact with a character/champion, you can only attack that character/champion. If that model is in a challenge, your attacks are wasted. Keep this in mind both when accepting challenge and issuing them. Also keep this in mind when placing your general (i.e. don't put him on the outside of a unit, put him right in the middle).

6) Also remember how this affects positioning. The acceptor always moves towards the issuer, but ONLY if they can do so by "switching places" with a rank-and-file model. If they can't get in base contact by switching places then you just "pretend" that they're in base contact.

That's actually really important. That death hag on the cauldron? She can't make way if you're attacking her unit in the flank, because she can't switch places with a rank-and-file, so all of her attacks are lost. Issue/accept a challenge and she can, because you just "pretend" that she's in base contact.
 

Borgnine

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Jun 15, 2013
2,036
Pruszkow, Poland
Now that is some good info :thumbsup: Thanks Ninja!

Regarding point 6 - I was wondering, how does it work when you have bodyguards - let's say one character with OTS and one with the Nightshroud - both on the both sides of the combat character - how does it work in challenges? Does the issuer 'pretend to be in base contact' only with his opponent, or with other models too? Can you displace bodyguards to stay close to the combat character? Or maybe the issuer can drag the combat character away from the bodyguards? Can you even 'make way' with three characters?

Every now and then one sees 'bodyguards' on lists and won't they just stop working when the challenge is issued and characters displaced? o_o
 

Bounce

Varghulf
May 3, 2012
746
That pretend they are together rule actually causes me a lot of headaches for what it means exactly with regards to how it affects all the other models in combat
 
Nov 13, 2013
927
Vancouver, Canada
Borgnine said:
Now that is some good info :thumbsup: Thanks Ninja!

Regarding point 6 - I was wondering, how does it work when you have bodyguards - let's say one character with OTS and one with the Nightshroud - both on the both sides of the combat character - how does it work in challenges? Does the issuer 'pretend to be in base contact' only with his opponent, or with other models too? Can you displace bodyguards to stay close to the combat character? Or maybe the issuer can drag the combat character away from the bodyguards? Can you even 'make way' with three characters?

Every now and then one sees 'bodyguards' on lists and won't they just stop working when the challenge is issued and characters displaced? o_o

BRB 102
FIGHTING A CHALLENGE
If a character accepts the challenge, move him into base contact with the challenger — after all, what good is the narrative of a challenge without the visual reality? If, for whatever reason, this is not possible, assume that the two models are in base contact (this might require a little gumption to work out, so it's best to move the model if you can). These two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other — they cannot be attacked by any other model for that round of close combat.


So upon closer consideration my answer is...well who the heck knows. GW decided they'd rather have a whole paragraph about how different races narratively frame challenges than how you actually move character models to make a challenge work.

The way I've always run this is that the characters "make way" into base contact. If you can't "Make way," then you "assume" they're in base contact. Barring a line I'm missing I don't see how to run it otherwise.

For instance, I had an issue the other day where I charged my two solo vampires into a unit of skullcrushers. The hero vamp with lance hit the unit, while the lord vamp hit the BSB riding a demonic steed as well as the unit. BSB challenges, hero vamp accepts...so now what happens? my hero vamp re-locate to an illegal position (not maximizing) in order to get into base-contact with the enemy? Does my vamp lord shove over? Or is this where we "just pretend"? It made a difference, since depending on how they landed one or both vampires could have been out of base-contact.

As for your question, my ruling would be that yes, they stop working. The rules say assume the two models are in base-contact, but not to assume that they're also in base contact with models next to them.


That said, the reality is that GW doesn't care about these sorts of things. They likely consider everything I've written thus far an 'abuse' of the challenge system, which is meant to facilitate "narrative" challenges between your two kitted up super combat lords. Using challenges to deny incoming attacks just isn't what the rules were written for, and we're unlikely to ever see an FAQ telling us why.
 

Count Lupei

Zombie
Feb 16, 2014
36
Alberta
Ya, those two extra words "or affected" (by any other model) would have just been too clear and concise to fit in with the narrative of the book though.
Sarcasm most deffinately intended;)
 
Nov 13, 2013
927
Vancouver, Canada
Count Lupei said:
Ya, those two extra words "or affected" (by any other model) would have just been too clear and concise to fit in with the narrative of the book though.
Sarcasm most deffinately intended;)

I know, right?

What's worse is that they're obviously aware of these issues and aren't willing to fix it. They're in the business of selling pretty books, and people won't buy pretty books if they're constantly having to update them.

Perhaps this is just my personal bias as an aspirant to the profession, but I truly believe they need to hire someone with a law degree to write their rulebook. Someone who really understands how important tight wording is, and knows how to craft a sentence that's less open to interpretation. I mean heck, it's an undergrad degree for them over there: they ought to be able to find one who will work on the cheap, and law schools are lousy with wargamers.

People try to defend their rules by saying that they're a "miniatures company, and that the rules are there to assist you in running narrative-focused games." But that's total crap. I play loads of RPGs
and they're all written tighter and more concisely than the BRB. GW feels the need to write a whole damned paragraph on what you should shout when you declare a challenge, but leave the most important part (actually moving the model) up to a single vague sentence. Arghhhh.



TL;DR - challenge shenanigans are awesome, but the rules are crap. Also be careful being too gamey with blocking incoming attacks using a challenge: people will start to think you're a rules-lawyering rat bastard :P
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
The way I've always played it is that whoever accepts the challenge, has to move. If it's impossible for him to move, then the character issuing the challenge moves. If it's not possible for either of them to move, then we just leave them where they are and assume they are in base contact.

For instance, I had a game last week where two Chaos chariots charged into my Black Knight unit. My unit contained a Vampire Hero with the Nightshroud, and my Vampire Lord. One of the chariots was a normal one, and the other was ridden by a hero with the Helm of Many Eyes (which grants the bearer ASF).

After the chariots had moved, the one ridden by the champion was not in base contact with my lord. I issued a challenge, and as per the rules "If a character accepts the challenge, move him into base contact with the challenger" his chariot had to move over to the edge of the unit to be in base contact with my lord. The only way he could move to be in base contact with my lord was to ALSO be in base contact with the Vampire Hero bearing the Nightshroud, which meant the Chaos hero lost his ASF.

We had a short debate on the rules at this point, and he thought that ONLY items carried by the characters in the challenge could affect the challenge. I was more of the opinion that things outside of the challenge CAN affect the challenge. For instance, a magic banner that affects the participants would continue to do so during the challenge, or if a unit had been 'netted' by Night Goblins, or was affected by one of those High Elf characters which grants a ward save to the unit.

Whoever accepts the challenge has to move, and if the only way for them to move is to end up in base contact with another character (bearing the Nightshroud or OTS, for example) then, well, that's just the luck of the draw.
 

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