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Undead legion question

Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
29
#1
According to army builder if im playing undead legion I cant use magic item from the vampire count book is that correct? like I cant use black periat or Nightshroud etc...
 

estwheadn

Black Knight
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
301
#2
No, you should be able to give your vampires and necromancers and wight kings magic items from the vampire counts army book. Maybe try battle scribe
 

Alastor

Black Knight
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
311
#4
As they are written by human beings, it's possible one of the writers has taken the limited (and frankly, ridiculous) view that UL can't use army specific items. Wait for the next update and use battle scribe in the meantime.
 

John Rainbow

Crypt Horror
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
598
#5
This issue seems to be up for debate on a lot of forums at the moment. No one has reached consensus although Adepticon has ruled that Legion lists can only use BRB items. Not sure if other tournies will follow suit.
 

GDD

Grave Guard
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
200
#6
This almost makes me angry. There isn't ONE warhammer forum atm without this stupid discussion! It seems like they understand and give up when discussing this for a while, but some people are just so incredibly stubborn..

The discussion is LITERALLY what the word OPTIONS implies.. The people that agree with this are just afraid of the legions lists. Or that's what they end up looking like to me.

Rant over.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
293
#7
a) sod tournaments and "Adepticon" and b) it's fairly obvious that you can take army specific magic items for your units.

Honestly, just when the undead get an upgrade there are people who just want to tear them down and say "you can't take this and that", when in reality the rules as intended support taking army specific magic items.
 

John Rainbow

Crypt Horror
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
598
#8
Calm down guys! While I think that the intent of the rules is clear, the fact of the matter is that RAI doesn't mean anything to most competitive events. The only thing they care about is RAW and as it is, RAW just isn't clear otherwise there wouldn't be an issue.
 

estwheadn

Black Knight
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
301
#9
It says you can use units out of the the vampire counts army book. A vampire with magic items from the vampire counts army book is a unit from the vampire counts book. And thus you can take it. There is nothing to say that you can't take your own magic items and there is nothing to say that you can mix items from different army books (tomb king magic items on a vampire). So why either of these claims are being made is beyond me
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
293
#10
Well you would think that since the books are combined into the Undead Legions, then the magic items become a combined armoury so you can take TK items on a vampire for example, I don't see anywhere where it says that you can't do that, and I think the whole point was to make it so that you can combine TK items with VC units. I don't see how, from a background perspective, the Tomb Kings would keep their magic items to themselves when they've been united with the vampires by Nagash.
 

estwheadn

Black Knight
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
301
#11
Ya no you definitely can't do that. Units from the Vampire Counts book and Units from the tomb kings army book does not mean you can mix and match wargear. That's like giving tomb king bows to zombies. Basically you are taking units from different army books and putting them in the same army. If you have a unit that can't be taken in a normal vampire counts army, or a normal tomb king army, then it is illegal unless it is from the undead legions army list (like morghasts, mortarchs and nagash himself). It's like in 40k when you take allied detachments. Just because the armies are allied doesn't mean that you can put holofields on a rhino
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
293
#13
They're not "allied" they're ONE ARMY, so therefore all the magic items go into a single list for the entire UL army. That's my interpretation of it. Also your comparison with giving zombies bows is ridiculous, they don't have that option in their unit entry in the army list. This is a different matter entirely.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
293
#14
Also, point out to me right now where it says you can't take magic items from the TK list on a VC unit and vice versa when using the Undead Legions army list. Go on.

Also point out to me where it says that the Undead Legions count as two allied armies.

Oh and while you're at it, explain to me how any of what you're saying makes sense from a background perspective, and how any of what I am saying makes the game unbalanced any more than the Undead Legions list itself.
 

estwheadn

Black Knight
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
301
#15
1) It says quite clearly in the nagash book something like "you may combine units from army book: tomb kings and army book: vampire counts into a single army". A vampire being able to take tomb king magic items is DEFINITELY something that would need to be SPECIFICALLY STATED that it is allowed. You know what else isn't SPECIFICALLY stated either way? I can physically 'remove a model from play' anytime I want just by picking it up and throwing it across the room. But it isn't specifically stated that this model doesn't count as 'being removed from play' for game purposes and therefore it is dead. SO pretty much anytime I want to kill something on my opponents side I can just pick it up and it's dead. If that doesn't get the point across that the "if it doesn't say I can't do it, then I can" mentality just has no place in warhammer then I don't know what will.

2) It doesn't. But it doesn't need to either. They are units from separate books and thus just don't have the access to those items. In fact why don't YOU give ME one example of an army book allowing a character to take magic items that is from a different armybook where neither book specifically says they can and neither of those books is a supplement for the other.

3) From a backround perspective anyone could probably use any magic item. There's really no reason why my vampire hero couldn't pick up the banner of the world dragon and start raping you with it. And as to balance, there is a lot of testing/balancing that goes into making the army books, that is why the number of magic items in most armies was scaled down. Those items are tested and designed to be balanced on the units from the army book it came from. AND items and units are tested against those combos as well. Using other army's magic items throws all that testing out the window because it wasn't designed to be that way. Whether you get lucky and it doesn't actually upset the balance all that much is not the point. For a specific example I am pretty sure a tomb king in a chariot with the nightshroud was never meant to happen.

P.S. do you also think you can combine the enchanted shield with other magic armor?
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
293
#16
P.S. do you also think you can combine the enchanted shield with other magic armor?
Hurr hurr hurr very funny. Not.

What you don't seem to understand is that we're not talking about two separate books here, as you like to keep raving on about. We're talking about an entirely new army list, essentially a new army book, the Undead Legions, that COMBINES the Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts books, but instead of printing it all out again they simply say "these two armies are now one, please refer to the army books for details". Ergo, the magic items from both books are now part of that one army list, the Undead Legions, and thus any character from either book can take an item from either book's magic items list.

Even if you can't do this, which you can, you can take those magic items in your UL army ANYWAY just by taking a Tomb King / Prince / Liche Priest / whatever. It makes absolutely no difference, or very little. You can't put DoE on a Vampire Lord, you can't use the Banner of the Undying Legion to make uber Blood Knight deathstars, it's not going to make the game any more unbalanced than it already is.
 

estwheadn

Black Knight
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
301
#17
It doesn't say anywhere that "these two books now count as one" however it literally does say that you can include units from both army books in an undead legion. I know how badly you want this, believe me I want it too. But its just not so
 

GDD

Grave Guard
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
200
#18
@Undying Scourge

"these two armies are now one, please refer to the army books for details".

Yes. Options as in the units options from it's own book, as the end times book points out by listing units as belonging to "TK" and "V".
Meaning you can take any option the unit has in it's respective book.

"Ergo, the magic items from both books are now part of that one army list"

Sadly no. It does not say that anywhere.

On a completely different note! Standard of the undying legion can be put in blood knights through a Tomb Herald bsb on a skeletal steed,
but there is no point :tongue: The resurrecting fallen warriors page states that vampiric models can only get one wound per successful casting of a spell, or through an item.
I got excited about that for a second.
 
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#20
@Undying Scourge

"these two armies are now one, please refer to the army books for details".

Yes. Options as in the units options from it's own book, as the end times book points out by listing units as belonging to "TK" and "V".
Meaning you can take any option the unit has in it's respective book.

"Ergo, the magic items from both books are now part of that one army list"

Sadly no. It does not say that anywhere.

On a completely different note! Standard of the undying legion can be put in blood knights through a Tomb Herald bsb on a skeletal steed,
but there is no point :tongue: The resurrecting fallen warriors page states that vampiric models can only get one wound per successful casting of a spell, or through an item.
I got excited about that for a second.
There are two ways of reading it and neither reach you conclusion.

1. Anywhere it says "tomb kings army" or "vampire counts army" replace with "undead legions" because the books have been combined.

2. Tomb king/vampire characters may take 100 points in magic items. But the ones in the books are tomb king or vampire counts army only which you are playing neither of. Meaning they are off limits to an undead legions character.

There is no support for your interpretation aside from how you think it should work.
 

GDD

Grave Guard
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
200
#21
@LordTobiothan

1. It does not tell you to do this anywhere. By that logic you could ride a VL on a coven throne in a unit of skeleton chariots.
It names itself as a "Undead Legions List" in the... Headline? (Donno if that was proper english by me)

2. On page 20: "An Undead Legions army can include any of the units listed below (...) you must use the unit profiles, points, costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either VC or TK".

In the army books the units have the options to use BRB items, and army book items. Very clear to me. The ET book has updated army wide special rules, but not unit special rules. Am I not allowed to use my unit rules either because I'm not playing a VC army?

You get my point. I hope.
 
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#22
@LordTobiothan

2. On page 20: "An Undead Legions army can include any of the units listed below (...) you must use the unit profiles, points, costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either VC or TK".

In the army books the units have the options to use BRB items, and army book items. Very clear to me. The ET book has updated army wide special rules, but not unit special rules. Am I not allowed to use my unit rules either because I'm not playing a VC army?

You get my point. I hope.
No where in a tomb princes set of options does it say you may use the tomb kings book magic items, it says you may use 50 points worth of magic items.

In the magic item section itself is where it tells you who can use those items, and it says characters in a tomb kings army. Since you are not playing a tomb kings army and only using there units, you cannot take those magic items.

Also the tomb kings chariots only allow characters from a tomb kings army to join them, characters from an undead legions army are off limits.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#23
It is very simple. Undead legions replaced the pages that say Army Special Rules at the top in TK and VC with its own Army Special Rules. That's it. That's what the book says. Units within the books still use all their options, unit special rules, etc. This includes magic items from the book. GW did not intended for units and items to work any different inside the undead legions than out side of it beyond those army special rules page being changed. People are over complicating this. Everything that is changed is specially described in the Undead Legions rulebook. If they intended for magic items to be disregarded or combined, or vampires to join chariots or royals to not be able to, they would have stated it in a rule or in a designer note like they did about undead and the general/ heriophant being slain.

I'll grant it's not perfect RAW, but it's very clear RAI if you don't go adding things that aren't said or not there. Just put the two books in front of you and then read the undead legion rules and make the changes as you go instead of adding in rules or interpretations that aren't there. Simple.
 

GDD

Grave Guard
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
200
#24
@LordTobiothan Earlier you told me to replace TK or VC army with LoU everywhere. Now you are directly contradicting that. Again: It describes itself as "the Undead Legions Army List", and tells you to refer to the armybooks.

As Najo points out people are over complicating this.
 
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#25
Any time you use the word "intends/intended" there are a hundred different things that can come after that word and each one is believed by at least one person.

Which means it hardly matters what you think was intended.
 
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