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beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
Hiyas!

wow reading through some of your stuff, absolutely fantastic, love it all, kinda had an idea floating around in my head about a unit myself figured i'd suggest it/throw it out there (i havent thus far read everything you all have, so apologies if you already have something like this) i was thinking of having them use ion, but i kinda did em up to fit into your list

Rare choice

Necrophyte

20 points per model

M 4 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 8

unit size: 3-5

weapons/armor: hand weapon

special rules:
nagashi
thrall magic

Thrall Magic: The unit of necrophytes are made up of apprentice necromancers who may pool thier ability in combat to assist thier dark lords. To represent this the unit can be used in the magic phase and works just like a character using a bound scroll, the power level of the bound scroll is equal to the amount of necrophytes in the unit (ie if there are 3 necrophytes in the unit it counts as a bound scroll, power level 3). The unit can be used in the following of two ways

ION (or i guess ritual of birth)
When this spell is successfully cast it works just like ion (or ROB) except that it only brings back a number of models equal to the amount of necrophytes left in the unit. For example if there are 5 necrophyes left in the unit, and the spell is cast upon a unit of skeletons, 5 skeletons would be raised.

Gaze of Nagash
This is a magic missile with a range of 24", if successfuly cast this gaze of nagash causes x str 4 hits, where x is equal to the amount of neophytes left in the unit.

Only one of these powers may be used in each magic phase
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Hmm, this is actually not too bad of an idea.

We do need another special choice with the changes we are looking at making in the review, and I did want another Nagashi unit.

The only thing is how to make this work without the Legion's magic phase becoming waay over the top, as I can already Danceman having issues with this xd

Any suggestions from anyone?
 

TMS

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Nov 26, 2008
4,662
Sweden
The idea on its own is a good one although, like DoN said, much of it will depend on how it meshes with the rest of the list. I think it's good that you didn't include them acting as if they had a Wizard Level - units just shouldn't generate dispel dice, in my opinion. :)
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Yep, an interesting an idea for sure. Though, as DoN already pointed out... adding more "bound" spells to the magic phase is going to create further issues with some of the member base.

*IF* using this unit, it might be best to keep it even simpler, and just allow the "unit" to cast from the rituals list...

I agree with MS, no PD/DD from units.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Or perhaps we go down another avenue. Sephiroth has mentioned (since he has already been doing some playtesting), that there is issues with basic marching.

How about they are a group of lesser priests which instead support the dead. So perhaps undead units within certain range of them my may march, or maybe they can focus on one unit so it can march as normal.

They could also possibly like a lodestone, so if a unit with x inches is healing they can boost the amount of models healed?

So something that wouldn't added more spell power, but just enhance the effects?
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
Disciple of Nagash said:
So something that wouldn't added more spell power, but just enhance the effects?

yeah that seems cool to me, infact i was considering throwing a rule along with them in the first place anyways that made them good supporty units to throw characters in *for just them types of bonuses you mention*

perhaps change thier wargear around a bit and change thier thrall power to this

Thrall magic: Once per magic phase a friendly wizard within 12" of the unit may call upon the necrophytes for assistance. When casting a spell (be it rebirth or gaze of nagash) the wizard gains +1 to the dice he rolls for wounds or missiles per necrophyte in the unit.
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
Disciple of Nagash said:
We do need another special choice with the changes we are looking at making in the review, and I did want another Nagashi unit.

how bout doing something kinda like old loota boyz from 40k

have a special choice that you can only have 1 unit of that is something like this

Mastererd Undead

One special choice in the army may be a unit selected from the core choices of any other army book. The normal restrictions and upgrades to that unit apply except for the following

the unit now costs an additional %50 of its normal cost (ie if the unit was 12 per model it is now 18pts per model)

The unit now has the undead special rule
The unit looses any special psycological or leadership affecting rule (stubborn for example)
the unit may never be joined by a character


I dunno just thought it would be cool, open up neat conversions, and allow undead to be less humany

oh look i got some undead skinks

probably too powerfull tho
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
I like the idea of them allowing units to march, maybe something similar to the way necromancers allow units to march in the bloodlines project.

-If they pass a Ld test everyone within x inches can march or you may choose one unit within ? inches and allow that to march.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Yeah I think them helping other units march is a definite one. However I think it would be better to be a variable amount to represent them chanting and and not being fully skilled. It should also be affected by the enemy - keeping everyone contentrated is difficult when you're being killed.

Something along the lines of:

At the start of the Legion's movement phase every Undead unit within (D6+ number of ranks the apprentice unit has) of the apprentice unit may march as per the BRB. However if there is an enemy unit with 12" the apprentice unit must take a Ld test, if this is failed they loose their concentration this power has no effect for that turn. If the apprentice unit is in contact, they cannot use this power.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
Disciple of Nagash said:
Something along the lines of:

At the start of the Legion's movement phase every Undead unit within (D6+ number of ranks the apprentice unit has) of the apprentice unit may march as per the BRB. However if there is an enemy unit with 12" the apprentice unit must take a Ld test, if this is failed they loose their concentration this power has no effect for that turn. If the apprentice unit is in contact, they cannot use this power.

I like the sound of that but i thought they would be small units like beeblicon initial idea, rather then big ranked up units. As i don't think Nagash would clump all his apprentice necromancers into one place. Having them in big units could also lead to a 'conga line' where someone gets a unit of 15 of them in a long line behind there army allowing everything to march pretty much. You could change it to D6+ the nuber of apprentices over 3.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
How about allows marching within d6" per every three models, or fraction thereof... with a minimum distance of number of models in the unit. This would allow a small variable distance for smaller units while being decent in larger units.

example:
1 Apprentice - d6" (minimum of 1")
2 Apprentice - d6" (minimum of 2")
3 Apprentice - d6" (minimum of 3")
4 Apprentice - 2d6" (minimum of 4")
5 Apprentice - 2d6" (minimum of 5")
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
Bishop said:
How about allows marching within d6" per every three models, or fraction thereof... with a minimum distance of number of models in the unit. This would allow a small variable distance for smaller units while being decent in larger units.

example:

ooo i quite like that, and it represents them being underskilled and such, nice
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
The main issue I see with having such small units, is that they could be easily killed off? They will not be monsters / heavy armoured etc, so if they are going to be a small infantry unit I can see them being wiped out quite easily?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
I see the unit being used as a supporting type unit, hanging out behind the main force (like where you usually find a Corpse Cart)... granting some marching bonuses to the nearby units.

Hmm... for a bit of defense, how about:
Shrouded in Mystery : insert fluff here, I don't write fluff :D
Any enemy models that target the Apprentice unit with mundane shooting suffer -2 to hit (but 6s will hit regardless of penalty).
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Hmm, perhaps that would work, so this is what think looking at the discussion:

Necrophyte

20 points per model

M 4 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 8

unit size: 5-15

weapons/armor: hand weapon

special rules:
nagashi
thrall magic

Thrall Magic
Insert Fluff
Roll on the following table at the start of every Legion turn:
1-5 Necrophytes still alive: 1D6
6-10 Necrophytes still alive: 2D6+2
11-15 Necrophytes still alive: 3D6+3

The total is the range from the Necrophyte unit in which any Undeads unit may march move for that turn only. Only units that are in this range at the start of the Legion turn may march as per the BRB.

In addition any Undead unit that is within this range and suffer from crumbling at any point until the start of the next Legion phase (check distance at the time when the crumbling would occur), they suffer one less wound than normal.


Shrouded
The Necrophytes of Nagash are not warriors, and only take to the battlefield to further their training in necromantic lore. As such they shroud themselves in the darkest of shadows and avoid the enemy at all cost
The Necrophytes may not willingly charge the enemy. Any time an enemy unit wishes to shoot, charge or in any other way interact with the Necrophytes (such as cast as spell), the Necrophytes must take a Ld test. If passed they managed to keep themselves hidden and the enemy unit may target someone else instead. If they fail the test they may be targeted / charged etc as normal.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
Looks ok but i can see a couple of uses that may not be as planned, waliking in 1 15 man long line while using the genrals Ld to stop nearly all enemy shooting as they can't see anything else. For shrouded i think its better if they can't use the genrals Ld for it.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
I would agree on that - perhaps we also put in that if they pass the test they do not block line of sight or something?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Yeah, that could be abusive.

See, in 40k it's not so bad, since units have gaps in them to start with, so if you fail to "see" the unit... then you can just target a different one (Tau Stealth team, Eldar Harlequins, etc).

I'm not sure what the best course to take here is... since "ignoring" them might lead to a situation wherein the enemy unit declares a charge "through" the Necrophytes! And that's just silly too!! And what if the charger can't fit?? ie. the Necrophytes are 0.5" in front of the "new target" unit...

Also, the test should only occur once per turn (or maybe once per phase). Taking 10-15 Ld tests during the Dwarven shooting phase (as an example) is just going to slow things WAY down.

So, how about this (my changes are in Red):

Shrouded
The Necrophytes of Nagash are not warriors, and only take to the battlefield to further their training in necromantic lore. As such they shroud themselves in the darkest of shadows and avoid the enemy at all cost.
The Necrophytes may not willingly charge the enemy. The first time each phase (or turn, not sure which is better) that an enemy unit wishes to target or affect in any way, [shoot, charge or in any other way interact with the Necrophytes (such as cast as spell),] the Necrophytes must take a Ld test. If passed they managed to keep themselves hidden and the enemy unit may target someone else instead. If they fail the test they may be targeted, etc as normal. Necrophytes may only use their own Ld unless the army general is a Disciple of Nagash in which case the DoN Ld may be used as per the normal "General" Ld rules.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
I agree with the changes though the worries you have put forward are valid. I am not sure how to get round them though - any suggestions?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Well it could simply be stated that despite not blocking LoS, no units may charge through the Necrophytes.

As for the "conga line" issue... how about, due to the nature of the Shrouding and the focus required, it will only function within a small area; As such the Necophytes suffer a penalty to their Shrouding Ld test of -1 per rank/file beyond 6 models.

So, here the revised entry:

Shrouded
The Necrophytes of Nagash are not warriors, and only take to the battlefield to further their training in necromantic lore. As such they shroud themselves in the darkest of shadows and avoid the enemy at all cost.
The Necrophytes may not willingly charge the enemy. The first time each phase (or turn, not sure which is better) that an enemy unit wishes to target or affect in any way, the Necrophytes must take a Ld test. Due to the focus required, the Shrouding functions better within a small area; As such the Necophytes suffer a penalty to their Shrouding Ld test of -1 per rank/file beyond 6 models.

If passed then they managed to keep themselves hidden; the enemy unit may target someone else instead and the Necrophytes do not block LoS any purpose except for charging. If they fail the test then they may be targeted, etc as normal. Necrophytes may only use their own Ld unless the army general is a Disciple of Nagash in which case the DoN Ld may be used as per the normal "General" Ld rules.


How's that?
 

Dreadgrass

Necromancer
Dec 20, 2009
846
Hi all,

If I can interject here on the topic of the Shrouded rule, I think its becoming a bit too convoluted and rulesy, forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a simple "skirmishers" rule and maybe an extra -1 to hit with shooting suffice? I Understand where your coming from, and the rules your thinking up are really cool, but the army has an awful lot of special rules already and the more you add, and the more buffers/ extra bits you add to items, the less opponents you'll find and the less chances you'll have to use what you've spent so long creating...

Just my 2 cents...
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
I'm with Dreadgrass this time round. Let's use the KISS rule and just make them Skirmishers. Oh, and they should be Alive so as to be able to flee as a charge reaction
 

Dreadgrass

Necromancer
Dec 20, 2009
846
I'd definately say alive, gives a nice feel as the Lord/ Hero are the undead "masters" and these are sort of the acolytes/ clergy of Nagash.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
I think skirmishing would work, for the shooting bit. But a 15 man skirmishing unit could cover 30" +3D6+3 at either end so they unit cap would have to be brought down a bit.
 

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