Vampire Counts 8th Edition Handbook by Sunny & Najo

[The Sun King]

This thread is for the general discussion of the Guide Sunny & Najo’s Vampire Counts 8th Edition Handbook (2014). Please add to the discussion here.

 

[HERO]

GJ with this guys. I personally think Ghouls and Beguile should be blue.

Ghouls for 10 points have incredible synergy with the rest of our army and forms a better core than a lot of equivalents out there. While they have no armor save, they can be brought back and pose a threat to everything due to the sheer amount of wounds and attacks that they have.

Beguile is one of the best vampiric powers ever. It's incredibly cheap, can be brought on any popular Vampire/Lord combo, and offers incredible synergy with many of our items, other vampiric powers, and leadership modifiers. The cost associated with the fact that it outright offers better protection than most magic items and armors that costs 2x as much makes it incredibly cost-effective. There's no better protection for the general of your army for that price, none.

 

[Bullhax]

Wow guys, this is perhaps the best warhammer guide I've ever read.! Very extesive, very well explained variety in the rating scale to account for synergies.!

I ofcourse have a few tweaks to some of the ratings to suit my preferences/experience. That can't be helped, and you do say so in the 'disclaimer'.

That being said this need to be stickied, liked and linked to everyone who plays VC or warhammer in general.!

Insane job guys!!!

 

[The Sun King]

Thanks @HERO As I wrote in the introduction opinions will vary as Warhammer is not that clear cut and some things are better in different styles of play. With that said I think it was very nice to work together with @najo who has a completely different approach to playing VC than I.

Thank you so much @Bullhax! Let the spreading of the word begin - and it begins with you I've wondered if I should post it on Warseer, but I don't have a profile there yet.

 

[najo]

First, I like to say it was an absolute pleasure working with Sunny on this. We both put allot of time and effort into this project and I know I definately learned a few things from Sunny. We discovered how diverse our play styles are too and that brought a broader perspective to the handbook then we first expected. Vampire Counts really has a width and depth to it's builds and strategies, and that became quite clear as we worked on this together.

So, thank you to @The Sun King for inviting me to work on this with him. It has been a great pleasure!

@Bullhax Thank you for the kind words!

@HERO
Ghouls are on that edge, and we struggled with making them blue. In the end, their points cost, lack of full command. and armor save makes them a liability at times and we couldn't ignore that in our assessment of them. Ghouls do synergize very well with van hel's and mortis engines, but so do other troops, so those individual units are rated and reviewed with that in mind.

Beguile has two drawbacks that keep it from being blue. You have to invest in infrastructure to make it reliable, thus taking items and powers away from blending. When you take beguile AND AoDM, you just dropped quickblood etc. Also, it only gives you protection from one model in base contact. Other protection works against anyone attacking you. And, that one model still gets to hit, they just have to reroll those hits. So, you could have beguile fail easier than other protection. That said, it stacks well with other protection and does hamper a character in base contact with your vampire, but that isn't the best place for your vampire to be. So, all these factors push beguile into mid range at green.

 

[HERO]

Beguile has two drawbacks that keep it from being blue. You have to invest in infrastructure to make it reliable, thus taking items and powers away from blending. When you take beguile AND AoDM, you just dropped quickblood etc. Also, it only gives you protection from one model in base contact. Other protection works against anyone attacking you. And, that one model still gets to hit, they just have to reroll those hits. So, you could have beguile fail easier than other protection. That said, it stacks well with other protection and does hamper a character in base contact with your vampire, but that isn't the best place for your vampire to be. So, all these factors push beguile into mid range at green.

Wait, what infrastructure? You can take Red Fury, Quickblood and Beguile. The only thing you need for blending is Red Fury and Quickblood. As for the one model, maybe you don't see this the same way as I do, but any incoming damage possibly reduced is good. While of course this is something that's less useful on say, a Skaven swinging at your 1+/4++ Lord, it can make for an outrageous difference vs. more killy units and characters.

But this is your guys list and not mine, do with it was you please of course. I'm just pointing out that for 15 points, IMO there's not a better protection item in any of the existing army books, or in the BRB for the price (closest would be Shield of the Merwyrm). Especially when it doesn't conflict at all with your magic allotment, which is a boon by itself. And it only gets better with leadership modifiers, which you can take in your army as synergistic components.

Fair point on the Ghouls though, but for me, they are blue. Simply because there's not a lot of core in the game that scares off monsters and other MCs quite like ours.

 

[Regis Von Carstein]

Sun King and Najo: Awesome Guide guys. This is the best and most thorough guide I have ever seen. It not only states the obvious, but also goes into many of the intricacies of the playing VC +10

One thing I noticed is you did not make the Varghulf Blue ... even though you had nothing but good things to say about this guy. he is my favourite unit so I am a little biased....

He is the only non-Frenzied, non-hero unit that can march without the general... Which is a huge plus for us, who have to keep a lot of our units clustered in a circle of radius 12 inches around our general.

Another interesting choice you made is making Gaze of Nagash Blue... I find that on a VL, I prefer to have something more combat oriented. On a necro who sits in a bunker, it is of limited use because he is usually hanging out at the back. I have never really used it, as you usually have better/ more needed spells to cast.

Also, Bat swarms should be red I think. No matter what arguments any of us make... I have never seen Bat Swarms make any VC list I have seen, my own or online... I think that says it all.

 

[Regis Von Carstein]

I had a thought... wouldn't it be REALLY COOL if there was some mechanic that would adjust point values of units/items/powers based on how often they are used in VC Armies? The ideal would be to get everything to be 'Green'. Basically it would work like supply/demand in a free-market economy.

For example, since everyone loves to take the TG, his point values would keep increasing by some function of how often it appears in lists. This would cause the TG to get more expensive, until some point value was reached which was deemed to be OK, but not great. Same thing would happen with weak units. Our bat swarms would fall in points until people started including them in lists.

Same with Vampiric powers... I can see Master Strike being worth 3 points.... and Supernatural horror maybe 10?

This is a theoretical scenario, but it would be cool to be able to use everything that is in our Armybook and to be able to face more everything in other armies... just a random thought

 

[najo]

Wait, what infrastructure? You can take Red Fury, Quickblood and Beguile. The only thing you need for blending is Red Fury and Quickblood. As for the one model, maybe you don't see this the same way as I do, but any incoming damage possibly reduced is good. While of course this is something that's less useful on say, a Skaven swinging at your 1+/4++ Lord, it can make for an outrageous difference vs. more killy units and characters.

But this is your guys list and not mine, do with it was you please of course. I'm just pointing out that for 15 points, IMO there's not a better protection item in any of the existing army books, or in the BRB for the price (closest would be Shield of the Merwyrm). Especially when it doesn't conflict at all with your magic allotment, which is a boon by itself. And it only gets better with leadership modifiers, which you can take in your army as synergistic components.

Fair point on the Ghouls though, but for me, they are blue. Simply because there's not a lot of core in the game that scares off monsters and other MCs quite like ours.

There is plenty of infrastructure. Anything that boosts WS, supplies a minus to hit or induces fear synergizes with beguile. But all those things lead to fear bombing or putting your vampires in harms way. I personally like beguile, but items like charmed shield, enchanted shield, dragon helm, opal amulet and seed of rebirth can be more effective in the right builds. For something to get blue, it's nearly auto include. Because beguile is subjective by play style and builds, green reflects that.

 

[najo]

Sun King and Najo: Awesome Guide guys. This is the best and most thorough guide I have ever seen. It not only states the obvious, but also goes into many of the intricacies of the playing VC +10

One thing I noticed is you did not make the Varghulf Blue ... even though you had nothing but good things to say about this guy. he is my favourite unit so I am a little biased....

He is the only non-Frenzied, non-hero unit that can march without the general... Which is a huge plus for us, who have to keep a lot of our units clustered in a circle of radius 12 inches around our general.

Another interesting choice you made is making Gaze of Nagash Blue... I find that on a VL, I prefer to have something more combat oriented. On a necro who sits in a bunker, it is of limited use because he is usually hanging out at the back. I have never really used it, as you usually have better/ more needed spells to cast.

Also, Bat swarms should be red I think. No matter what arguments any of us make... I have never seen Bat Swarms make any VC list I have seen, my own or online... I think that says it all.

First off, thank you. Sunny and I are glad your enjoying the guide. We had a lot of fun making it. As for our buddy the Varghulf, we both see his value, but when compared point for point and pound for pound with the mortis engine and terrorgiest, and that he compete with them for rare slots, ol'ghulffy slips down to green.

As for gaze of Nagash, read the description closer. It does state that it's green in the army builds you speak of. I play the same style and have little use for it. Sunny's style uses gaze to core out chaff and pop off soft targets. In defensive, necro death magic type builds you are going to use gaze to do your shooting.

As for bat swarms, take them 1 wide and flank with them. They also double as redirectors.

 

[Alastor]

Great guide guys, really useful stuff. I disagree with ghouls, I think they should be a lower ranking. I'm agree with everything else though, and it's helped me reconsider a couple if units too. Might get me some hero wraiths...

 

[Flem100]

Great. Thx for this

 

[Alastor]

@Flem100 why wouldn't you be able to give vampires magic armour? What rule are you referring to?


Edit: I see after my page refreshed that you edited your post. Does this mean you retract your objection?

 

[HERO]

There is plenty of infrastructure. Anything that boosts WS, supplies a minus to hit or induces fear synergizes with beguile. But all those things lead to fear bombing or putting your vampires in harms way. I personally like beguile, but items like charmed shield, enchanted shield, dragon helm, opal amulet and seed of rebirth can be more effective in the right builds. For something to get blue, it's nearly auto include. Because beguile is subjective by play style and builds, green reflects that.

Anything regen is build specific and eats magic item costs. Beguile does not, so while it's not 5 points like Charmed Shield, it's pretty much an auto-include for me in competitive play since it protects your blue Vampire Lord on TOP of other elements in your army. The fact that it comes from Vampiric powers and can be taken on top of Red Fury and Quickblood is what makes it amazing. You can take all the forementioned items on top of having Beguile, so Beguile never competes with those items and need to be ranked separately. Aura of Dark Majesty or Doom and Darkness is hardly considered fear-bombing, because they wreck face in general.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, this is my opinion, which will be different than yours because this entire tactica is an opinion piece.

 

[Flem100]

@Flem100 why wouldn't you be able to give vampires magic armour? What rule are you referring to?


Edit: I see after my page refreshed that you edited your post. Does this mean you retract your objection?

Yep. I found the rule in the rulebook that said that if you have options to buy normal armour then you can by magic armour as well. Else wizards cannot wear armour and vampires are wizards.

 

[GDD]

Fantastic to finally see this type of guide here on Carpe Noctem too. Great work.

Now it's time to start on that undead legions guide eh? (No seriously.)

 

[najo]

Fantastic to finally see this type of guide here on Carpe Noctem too. Great work.

Now it's time to start on that undead legions guide eh? (No seriously.)

I'm actually collecting notes on that now. The main issue though is undead legion lacks use over time right now. Between Sunny, myself and the longevity of these forms and all the great threads by its members, there is a ton of playtesting and experience to go off of. If it wasn't for all of the great feedback from our members here and threads like Sunny's army challenge or great advice previous moderators have given, our guide would be no where as accurate and complete as it is. Undead Legions on the other hand would be speculative and many players are figuring the combinations and strategies of that out now as we speak. We will see what we can figure out shortly.

 

[najo]

Yep. I found the rule in the rulebook that said that if you have options to buy normal armour then you can by magic armour as well. Else wizards cannot wear armour and vampires are wizards.

It's the reason Nightshroud says necromancers can wear it, cause if it didn't, they couldn't.

 

[hairyjeff]

Loved it ,guys. Really good as an over-view. My only disagreement ( and this is only because of play styles in my locale ) is that Cairn Wraiths have really worked for me. But as you said, different things work in different ways. Thanks for all the effort.

 

[The Sun King]

You're welcome Jeff! Glad you enjoyed it. Could you give us some insight in how the Cairn Wraiths as unit work well?

 

[hairyjeff]

It's very simple. both my main opponents have horde armies( O&G,and a Chaos marauder army ) They are both very light on magic, and haven't realised that they need to stop casting against my Lord in his large, protective unit, and go for the ethereals instead. It's a tactical matter which I expect them to realise sooner or later. To be fair, I have been playing about 3 times as long as both of them put together, but don't see why I should point out such a basic idea to them. The third guy I play,much more experienced, just seems to ignore them - haven't sussed his reasoning yet. It seems to be a very local approach - I recently played a Canadian visitor - he used my dwarves - and I got totally munched. I don't think this will help many other players, but it's always worth watching for the low magic enemy - it makes huge difference.

 

[najo]

What's interesting with end times lords and heroes percentages being official now, you are better off taking wraiths as heroes, hide them in units, then have them pop out and form a unit in their own once you got them close. Saves rare points for better units and gives you a more powerful version of the cairn wraith unit.

 

[TMS]

This is really good. Big thumps up for putting this together!

One expansion you could consider is to add in a review of the common magic items as well, with suggestions on how to put them to good work.

 

[Regis Von Carstein]

Take Wizarding Hat on your SGK. This way you get a level 2 SGK

But seriously... that might be nice idea.

I love the power stone. Such a basic item and what a surprise when your opponent thinks you only have 1 PD left and is smiling with her 2 DD, only for you to 3-dice that all important bubble Van-hell's or invo and watch her smile dissapear

 

[The Sun King]

Thanks Master Spark! Scalenex encouraged me to do so as well but I think I'm gonna take a break from writing