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Vanhel's Danse Macabre

Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#1
Our gaming group had a get together tonight where we played a pitched battle of TK vs VC. It was two players with 1K of TK each (so 2K all up) against two players playing with 1K of VC each (again 2K all up). While the armies would work together, they were still treated as each being a seperate 1K army in terms of you would have two generals/herophants on each side etc. and would generate seperate army power dice.

Anyways, I had two necros in my 1K list, and both rolled Invoke and Danse as spells, as well as one necro had the book of arkhan. We had the situation where I had invoked a unit of skellies in a previous turn, and had them positioned to charge one of two SSC's on a hill. I successfully cast a Danse on the unit with one of the necros, but they came up about an inch short on the SSC. So I then did an invoke with the other necro to increase their number, which was tried to be dispelled but failed. I then used the book on the unit which went through successfully to charge the unit into the SSC.

This is where the disagreement arose. My friend was adament that you could not successfully cast Danse on the same unit in the same magic phase, if it had already been successfully cast. He stated that he had always been told in tournaments that you couldn't, and referred to the TK's incantation of urgency which states in the description that it can only be cast on the same unit once per phase. I was just as adament that you could cast Danse on the same unit more than once per phase, and pointed out that in the description for Danse, it does not state that you cannot do this, whereas in the TK urgency description, it specifically states that you cannot. I also asked him to show me in the BRB where it states that you cannot. We could find no mention of it being stated that you could not cast a movement spell more than once on the same unit during the one magic phase. He thought he had seen it answered in an errata or faq somewhere (he could be right, as he does own the errata's that GW have published). In the end he allowed it, but wasn't happy about it, and as it's his place where we get together to play, he made it a house rule that from now on, you can't cast it more than once per phase on the same unit.

It is his place, so I do respect his right to make that a house rule, and I understand why he was not happy about it, being as though over the next two turns I not only took out the SSC, but also his herophant, liche priest, and tomb prince that accompanied the SSC, while my VC partner did the same to the other SSC including the other herophant, liche priest, and tomb princess. It helped to secure the solid victory for the VC.

But for future tournaments and games against other opponents in other places, I'd like to have this cleared up. Did I take the right stance and call it how it works? Can you cast Danse on the same unit (successfully, of course you can make more than one attempt to cast it if you have more than one magic user with the spell or if you have the spell and the book on the one magic user, and the first attempt with either the book or the spell is dispelled) more than once during the same magic phase. Or was my opponent right, and if so, where is it stated either in the BRB or in any errata or FAQ?
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#2
He is simply wrong, and a sore loser. You can cast the same spell as many times on the same target as many times as you like- you could even cast Curse of Years on a unit twice. Tomb Kings' rules say they can't have it done multiple times on one unit, and it is very likely that the new VC army book will disallow multiple castings on one unit, but at the moment, you can do it as many times as you like. It's nasty, but so it taking two SSCs (It's not suprising that cheesy players are so quick to whine about unfavourable rules but always willing to abuse them themselves when it suits them)!
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#3
Cool, that is what I thought. But it's a good mate and the gaming group is a good bunch of mates, and probably by the next time we have a games night the new VC book will be out so it will probably end up a moot point.

And yeah, the two SSC's was cheesy. The TK players also had 5 magic users between them (two herophants, two liches, and then one of the Princes), 3 Ushabti, 3 Tomb Scorps, about 40 archers, and only two units of skeleton warriors. We got lucky in that they chose to do 'come from below' on two of the Scorps, but they didn't come up until turn 4 and 5 respectively, by which time we had pretty much taken out all their magic and had them crumbling.

We knew to expect cheese, and knew how relentless the TK magic is, so went it fully prepared with 4 Lvl 2 Necros (2 in each VC army) with them kitted as 2 with book of arkhan/dispel scroll (we were playing as 2 seperate 1K armies working together, but who were still independant, thus you could take 2 books), and the other 2 with 2 dispel scrolls each. So 6 scrolls in total, and then I got lucky and rolled Invoke and Danse on both my necros.

Have to admit that it was very nice for a change to be the one purposefully targeting the magic user that would cause the army to crumble rather than it being the other way around. :D
 

Skaramak von Carstein

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
1,636
#4
I would agree with EVC as I also can't find anything to say you cannot do so.

I also believe this may change with the forthcoming new rule book.
 

Voltaire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
2,763
#5
EvC is correct in assuming that there is no limit to the amount of times you can cast any single spell from the VC book on a single unit. Just be prepared for a bit of agitation when the enemy calls you everything under the sun.

This should be rectified in the new VC book though.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#6
Voltaire said:
Justg be prepared for a bit of agitation when the enemy calls you everything under the sun.
Yeah that was pretty much what happened after I cast two danses and an invoke to the same unit, which charged it into one of the two SSC's they had and proceeded to destroy it and the herophant, liche priest, and tomb prince that was accompanying it. I got the daggers look followed by one of my opponents making it a house rule (it's his place) that you couldn't cast danse more than once on the same unit in the same phase in future games. Oh well, march is not far off so it'll no longer be an issue..
 

Faust

Skeleton
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
62
#8
Greetings.

Darknesseternal no offense meant but your friend is being a child. The TK are an entirely different army from VC. Just because they both are undead does not mean they operate the same. TK magic is unique and seperate from ours, we have no limit on how many times we can cast on our units. I have raised a unit in size twice and danced it twice at a TOURNAMENT and the opponent I womped never so much as looked twice. Then again she was a cheeseball Tzeentch player with more spell dice than 3 other armies combined.:rolleyes: The player is your friend so I will offer no advise but I hope your game keeps going.

Faust.
 

The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
2,586
#9
I have to agree with everyone here, although I might be new here, I have done this spell combo before against Orcs and Goblins (a slaughter to the Orcs). Tome Kings can only do it once because they're not cool enough to it twice, but Vampires are, in two words, Bad-ass.
Its a loop hole that should be used. After all, who's afraid of a unit of zombies who can move up to 24 inches a turn. They're zombies!!!
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#10
If your friend persists in this ridiculous houserule, then next time you cast the spell, move a unit its FULL move/charge distance, and when he freaks out just tell him that either you play it fully Tomb King-stylee, or you play by the rules. When your Black Knights/ Coach charges 24" in one turn or your Fell Bats 40", then I'm sure he'll see our wisdom.
 

Skaramak von Carstein

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
1,636
#11
EvC said:
If your friend persists in this ridiculous houserule, then next time you cast the spell, move a unit its FULL move/charge distance, and when he freaks out just tell him that either you play it fully Tomb King-stylee, or you play by the rules. When your Black Knights/ Coach charges 24" in one turn or your Fell Bats 40", then I'm sure he'll see our wisdom.
I like that idea :devil:
 

Noctis

Skeleton
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
78
#12
EvC Thats a fantastic idea!

What ever person said l agree with, thats the purpose of the spells.. to strike fear into who your playing.
No body has ever batted an eyelid if l do a double invoke on one unit of zombies so it stands to reason with the spell and the book l can double cast Danse, it's a good spell.

While there are spells that l dislike alot, l'd never make a house rule to nerf it, (un)live and learn :)

However it's not pleasent to fall out with your friends over such a moot point, it might get cleared up with the new rules, but at the same time it might still stand as the creators of VC might consider it a "VC" thing to do and to happen.

Hope it gets resolved, and happy gaming.

Noctis
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#13
Firstly, Faust, no offense taken whatsoever. I found the whole thing at the time really weird, as he was referring to how the TK ruling states you can do it only once, but the VC rules don't mention that at all. So I was standing there, asking him to show me where it stated I couldn't cast more than once with danse on the same unit, but not wanting to cause an arguement at all.. when he said he was making it a house rule from now on that you couldn't do that.. my jaw pretty much dropped and hit the floor.

But as Noctis pointed out, it's not pleasant to fall out with friends over such things, so I'll just deal with it when we play at his place. I mean, this is a mate who him and his wife got me a $150 ticket to see Iron Maiden in feb for xmas.. do I really want to fall out with a friend like that over a game of warhammer? Obviously no, so I will take my lumps with it. If something similar ever comes up though that benefits him, I'll be sure to remind him that he made a house rule ruling against such things.
 
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