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Vanhels

Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
36
#1
So Vanhel's dance Macabre allows the affected unit to break the normal rules and pile in and attack twice.

I just want a confirmation on the order that this happens. Do I get the option to pick this unit for combat twice (when you can only normally pick them once) but still alternating with the enemy units, or do I get to pile in and attack and then immediately pile in and attack again?
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
True Blood
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#2
So Vanhel's dance Macabre allows the affected unit to break the normal rules and pile in and attack twice.

I just want a confirmation on the order that this happens. Do I get the option to pick this unit for combat twice (when you can only normally pick them once) but still alternating with the enemy units, or do I get to pile in and attack and then immediately pile in and attack again?
It's the first interpretation. So if you were to put in on a unit of skeletons and you pile in with them first, then your opponent would choose a unit. After that, you would get the second pile-in; this also allows you to change your target or to get close enough to a second target and pile in there.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
6
#4
Hi.
It's been a year but this question keeps coming up in my games. As far as I'm aware there is no official FAQ on it either.

I will have to humbly disagree with Alabaster on this, but would welcome any criticism or counter points.

I think the confusion comes from a lack of distinction and separation between choosing a unit to attack and the actual mechanics of making the attacks.

So here's my argument

Strait from the rules under Combat Phase: "the player who's turn it is picks a unit to attack with, then the opposing player must attack with a unit, and so on until all eligible units on both sides have attacked once each."...
(So I can only attack once; unless a specific rule says otherwise)

"No unit can be selected to attack more then once in each combat phase."
(I can't selected a unit to attack more then once; unless a specific rule says otherwise).

"An attack is split into two steps; first the unit piles in, then you make attacks with the models in the unit"
(So an attack is made up of two steps; piling in and attacking)

So a simple question.

When I select a unit to attack in the combat phase, how many times can it pile in and attack with its weapons?
The answer would be once.

When I select a unit to attack in the combat phase, how many times can it pile in and attack with its weapons if it has vanhels' danse cast on it?

all the spell says is; "that unit can pile in and attack twice in your next combat phase". That's it. no mention of timing, order or any exceptions or conditions.

so back to the question.

So the unit I've selected once, (because I can only select it once, the spell doesn't let me break that rule), can pile in and attack twice, (because that's what the spell says). one after the other since I have to resolve all the selected units attacks before moving on to the next player. I cant go back and forth.

what do you think?

Some arguments back have been: "but the rule makes no mention that you specifically ignore the normal sequence of events though. So the rule is literally allowing you to activate, (I think he means 'select a unit to attack with) twice instead of the normal one"

I would say that following my rationale above, I'm not ignoring the normal sequence. I select a unit to attack, then resolve their attacks which consists of piling in and attacking; in this case twice.

The spell does not say;" you may select this unit to attack twice in your combat phase". If I did that, I would be breaking the rules.

Some have also said 'be selected to' is meant to be there, otherwise it doesn't make sense. Thus reading
"the unit can be selected to pile in and attack twice in the next combat phase"

Firstly, I don't think adding text to a rule is a good way of explaining your point, (I hope I haven't accidently done that!).
Secondly I think it does make sense RAW following my rationale above. It does show however that the difference between selecting a unit to attack and the mechanics of attacking aren't very obvious at first glance.

Finally some say, " It would specify if you could pile in and attack twice one after the other", the example they use is Red Fury which states;
"Roll a dice after your general attacks in the combat phase. If the roll is less than the number of wounds they inflicted, they can immediately attack again."

I say Vanhel's does specify. It literally says you can pile in and attack twice. Twice is specified. I can understand that adding 'immediately' may help, but I don't think it's needed.

If the word 'immediately' was removed from the Red Fury description, would the general have to wait for the enemy to select a unit to attack with before it makes it's additional attacks?...

Over to you.

AND THANKYOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE!!!
 

Oppenheimer

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 26, 2013
Messages
556
#5
Yes, immediately is the key word. We always played that you have to wait your turn again to pile in a second time.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
6
#6
Thanks for commenting!

It would certainly make it more concrete. But is it absolutely needed?

What rule is making you have to wait till it's your turn to pile in and attack a second time? The spell doesn't impose any restrictions. And I don't believe the rules do either.

"pick a unit to attack with, then the opposing player must attack with a unit, and so on until all eligible units have attacked once each."

I understand this is the strict order we select units to attack. But the 'attack' itself...

"An attack is split into two steps: first the unit piles in, and then you make attacks with the models in the unit." A unit with Vanhel's cast upon it "can pile in and attack twice"

The spell is about the unit resolving its attack, not it's selection in the combat phase.

If you select the vanhel unit to attack, Then the opponent attacks; Then you select the vanhel unit again, you are piling in and attacking twice yes, But you are also breaking the rule that says, "No unit can be selected to attack more then once in each combat phase" (the spell does not permit that)

If you select the unit to attack, then as your 'attack' pile in and attack twice (which is all the spell says it does)... What rule has been broken?

And thank you for weighing in!
 

Oppenheimer

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 26, 2013
Messages
556
#7
Only other thing I'd add is that lots of units have the ability to pile in twice. The Lord of Slaanesh on Demonic Mount's cmd ability and Bretonnian Pegasus knight on the charge for example. You could compare their wording or ask players who use their armies if you want to get more opinions.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
12
#8
I just looked and both examples pointed out by Oppenheimer specify "can be selected twice in the combat phase."

I'm inclined to go with OP's interpretation.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
6
#9
I did too. Thanks for jumping in. I'm going to risk sounding like a brat and keep going! Please forgive me and understand I'm just trying to unpack this in my mind...

I read from the warriors of chaos and bretonnia warscroll compendiums. I think that's the only place they are located. They actually read, "can be selected to pile in and attack twice, instead of only once...".

which is very different to "can be selected twice in the combat phase."

Piling in and attacking comes after selecting a unit to attack. It's a separate step. A unit with a rule or spell allowing it to pile in and attack once, twice or ten times only needs to be selected once

From the rules

You pick or select the unit to 'attack' once; "the player who's turn it is picks a unit to attack with, then the opposing player must attack with a unit, and so on until all eligible units on both sides have attacked once each."

you can't pick the unit to 'attack' again. "No unit can be selected to attack more then once in each combat phase." (unless the rule or spell said "can be selected twice in the combat phase." which it does not).

So you pick a unit once to make an 'Attack', which is...
"An attack is split into two steps; first the unit piles in, then you make attacks with the models in the unit".

In the case of the Slaneesh lord or peg knights, you repeat this process "...twice, instead of only once...".

Or, if you want, "can be selected (once) to pile in and attack (make an 'Attack') twice, instead of only once...".


I told myself I wouldn't write a book this time...

Sorry all.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
6
#10
how about this...

It's my combat phase.

I pick a unit to attack with. I choose my skeletons who are doing the Danse Macarbe. Now that I've picked them I attack with them.

I pile in, then attack with my weapons, now is the only time I can pile in and attack after all; and since Vanhel's danse macarbe says I pile in and attack twice, I do so again immediately, because I can't save it for later as I'm not allowed to pick the skeletons to make an 'attack' again this phase.

Once I've finished making my 'attack' (consisting of piling in and attacking twice)... the opponents army is dead and I am victorious! Or if by some stroke of luck one of their member has survived, my opponent may choose them to make an 'attack.

1."the player who's turn it is picks a unit to attack with, then the opposing player must attack with a unit, and so on until all eligible units on both sides have attacked once each." CHECK
2."No unit can be selected to attack more then once in each combat phase." CHECK
3."An attack is split into two steps; first the unit piles in, then you make attacks with the models in the unit". can I do that twice? (From the Vanhel's Description)" That unit can pile in and attack twice in your combat phase" CHECK CHECK AND CHECK

What rules have I broken? Please tell me specifically because I don't want to be a jerk arguing this if the answer is right there!

The OP would be braking the first two rules btw.

Thanks for you time with this guys
 
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
179
#11
I think that all such abilities work identically, just with different wordings.

You can select the unit twice per combat phase.

That's the consensus in my meta anyway, hopefully a future errata will clear everything.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
6
#12
But does meta make right?

I just want to know what rules I'm breaking as per my examples above if I pile in and attack twice before my opponent picks a unit.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
46
#13
You'r not breaking any rules because this is one of the many grey spots or strangely worded rules Games Workshop have with their games

But has a general consensus i have witness on the internet and in my meta it permits you to attack with the unit, opponent chooses one and after you can attack a second time.

If your opponent accept your vision of the rules then you have no problem, but like i said the majority view it the other way and i also think it's the idea behind this rule. If Games Workshop wanted to give the unit 2 pile-in and attack one after the other i think they would have worded the ability like the blood fury command trait.

just my 2 cents
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
6
#14
You'r not breaking any rules because this is one of the many grey spots or strangely worded rules Games Workshop have with their games
If I'm not breaking the rules; (meaning I can concisely describe and justify the application and effect of the spell), how is it grey?

Is it the rules as written or the meta that murkys the water?

But has a general consensus i have witness on the internet and in my meta it permits you to attack with the unit, opponent chooses one and after you can attack a second time.

If your opponent accept your vision of the rules then you have no problem, but like i said the majority view it the other way and i also think it's the idea behind this rule.
Does this mean meta overrides rules? I actually think it can (and should) if all players agree, or if there's a tournament FAQ for example. But in these cases rules are replaced or reworded to eliminate differing visions of a rule.

In a situation where there is no official FAQ or agreement (such as the internet!) should we be guided by the Meta when deciphering RAW?
The meta way is proven to have broken the rule as written; if not by my tedious posts above, then by the acknowledgement of the alternative 'not' breaking the rules.

If Games Workshop wanted to give the unit 2 pile-in and attack one after the other i think they would have worded the ability like the blood fury command trait.
Similarly, if they wanted the vanhel's player to wait for the opponent to attack before piling in and attacking a second time (the way the 'meta' says it works) they would specify as they do in Maniak Fury

"You can pile in and attack with this unit a second time at the end of each of your own combat phases)"
Note: 'a second time' not 'Twice' and 'at the end of your own combat phase'

Using other rules as a way to infer meaning is a risky business. We need to be able to asses rules individually.
 
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