• It's time once again to ferret out those murderous vampires in a new VAU - Vampires Amongst Us. A cross between Cluedo and a roleplay, sometimes gory and often hilarious! Find out more and sign-up! here.

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, this thread is to start discussion on Chiro Weaponry.

Please note this is to work out the fluff, rules are designed later.

Ok, so first things first. Before we get into any specifics, it would make most sense to see decide generically what types of weapon(s), these are.

My preliminary thoughts:

Nanobots - It would make sense that some of the weaponry - especially the most potent is enhanced by the nanobots. Or perhaps have this as an upgrade to normal weaponry?

Sonic Weaponry - We need to decide on the Cythor weaponry. Is it going to be sonic based (which I support as it fits in with the background better). If so is it a biological ability of the Cythor or technology?

Combination - Will there perhaps be a super weapon based in the combination of the the sonic / nanobots tech?
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
I agree with all 3 of your ideas there don. Why not? The compination of nano and sonic sounds cool for thier types of heavy weapons.

We know they have "devastating ranged weaponry", we should decide how exactly we want to work this wording on this fluff, it could mean a few different things. I know you like the up close and assaulty type stuff could just be really hard hitting and armor punching, not necesarially super long range? Theres play there.

The known fluff also states about them using weapons that shoot carbine spike things, thats why i proposed that Sonic Pulser in the other thread, basically it'd be a sonic rifle with 2 "modes" it can shoot in (ah old school plasma guns, how i loved you). Basically first the sonic energy would be used to propel a carbine spike - giving the weapon a longer range and rapid fire, the second being just an all out sonic blast that ignores armor but degrades over distance very rapidly.

I dont think we should stick solely to sonic for ranged, of course, there should be lots of variety.

perhaps a missile launcher like weapon that shoots really far, and launches a nano-canister? canister breaks open on the target and nanobots go about causing whatever kind of havok you like to imagine? could easily work just like a missile launcher with frag/krak shells...only we could make it a bit better?

just some ideas to get things started

Nano poisons?
nano force fields (protect you, or trap bad guy?)

Also gives the option to have lightweight armor *still let them fly* but really protective armor via nano enhancement (woo good save)
 

Morbraelle

Zombie
Jan 5, 2010
27
I'm kind of digging on Beeblicon's sonic spike-carbine idea, but there's one thing that's niggling at me, and that's the worry of crossing over into Noise Marine territory... I like the idea of the cythors having some technology based around their own biological sonic capabilities, but if the chiros all carry around sonic guns, they might just become a little too reminiscent of the Emperor's children.

Also, if our Chiros have adapted to resist sonic attacks, would this make them immune to the noise marines sonic weaponry? that would seem a little cheap, and we'd have to clarify why they are resistant to the Cythor's sonics but not the Noise Marines.

Personally, i'm seeing the chiro's specialize in some form of weaponry that has the option to either incapacitate or kill, with minimal damage to the body of the enemy so they can be rounded up for slaves/drained of precious blood,instead of splattering it all over the ground.. Needle pistols and carbines would seem approprately deadly, and different ammo could be used for incapacitating or killing enemies.

what do you guys think of needle guns and tech? they are covered in the 40k universe fairly well, but as of yet no army really uses them extensively. they could make a pretty sweet option, IMHO.
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
Morbraelle said:
I'm kind of digging on Beeblicon's sonic spike-carbine idea, but there's one thing that's niggling at me, and that's the worry of crossing over into Noise Marine territory.
Yeap thats why i insisted we throw in some other non sonic weaponry, i said lets not focus entirely on it :P thats why i think the sonic/carbine weapon mix is great, sure its a sonic weapon but its definetly not the same as the noise marines weapon.. and yeah, should limit the sonic weapons to just cythors, not chiros ( could be due to perhaps like you say, it functions of thier natural sonic abilities? cord to the brain anyone?)

Morbraelle said:
what do you guys think of needle guns and tech? they are covered in the 40k universe fairly well, but as of yet no army really uses them extensively. they could make a pretty sweet option, IMHO.

Dark eldar, who i love, and thier yummy yummy 24" assault 4 weapons that they can have 4 of in a squad on jump pack models *drool*
 

Morbraelle

Zombie
Jan 5, 2010
27
hmm. I think the weapons you are referring to are 'splinter' technology rifles, which are a little different to Needlers. as far as i know, splinter tech uses a solid core, which is then split into tiny 'splinters' that are (magnetically?) projected at the enemy. needle pistols and such actually have seperate needles in cartridges which i believe are propelled by compressed gas, or something like that. I'm thinking something like Fabius Bile's Xyclos Needler, perhaps with some longer range due to their focus on this tech?
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
Well the official fluff mentions a spike shooting weapon, so that should be included.
Perhaps make the basic unit be equiped with Spike Rifles, and with sonic blasters as a short range special weapon that some members of each squad uses.
Heres some things that can actually be done in real life with nanotech, to give us a good idea of how to start with nanotech gear-
Nanomedecine- Tiny robots in your bloodstream that repair and possibly reinforce damaged/sick cells. Nanobots can also deliver drugs and chemicals accuratly to specific parts of the body.
Catalysts- To help produce chemicals and create fuel cells. Im thinking nanotech power sources.
Quantum Computng- Epicly good computers.
Aerospace- Lighter and stronger materials for aircraft.
Construction- Better materials, but from a sci-fi standpoint, imagine if you could place a framework and have your building assemble itself out of individual molecules?
Optics- Really good optics and stuff to make you see better and zoom in with your own eyes and stuff.

Then theres stuff thats in sci fi and gaming, such as the nanosuits in crysis.
And has anyone ever read a book called prey? Its about swarms of nanobots that were developed for the military as scouts, which are self reproducing and smart, and can fly. They go haywire and form hives and kill people, even going inside people and taking them over. Perhaps some kind of nanoswarm weapon would be kewl.

So heres some nano-related gear ideas-
NanoSpike Launcher- A souped up spike gun, this one launches a hollow spike, full of nanobots. These nanobots act like a flesh eating virus, eating away at whoever the spike hits.
Nanoswarm Launcher- This weapon fires some kind of canister containing millions of flying nanites. These Nanites eat away at whatever they come in contact with.
Nanoarmour- This suit of flexible armour is light as cloth and as hard as diamonds, depending on the situation.
Nanosuit- This Improved nanoarmour not only has the qualities of Nanoarmour, but has active nanites in its construction, making it self repairing, powered, and it even accelerates the users biology, making him stronger, faster and superior in every way. (Think like the Crysis one)
Nanogauntlet- This gauntlet plugs into nanite resevoirs implanted in the users body, enabling the user to launch and control a short range swarm of personal nanites, which he can direct to devour not only his opponents, but also his opponents weapon, giving him the advantage in close combat.
NanoArray- The NanoArray, which can be carried on ones back, or mounted on a vehicle, controls swarms of defensive flying nanites, who seek out and attempt to disable or disintegrate any incoming projectile or threat.


I think for the basic spike carbine, we should avoid using sonic parts, as a spike carbine sounds nice and stealthy, but if you make it sonic propelled, its gunna make alot of noise.

With the noise marines sonic weaponry, we could just say they work on a diff frequency.
However, should the cythor even be innume to their own weaponry? Humans make weapons that are most likely to harm humans, wouldnt the cythor be the same? If it was harmless to themselves, how would they think of making it a weapon? Unless their natural sonar abilities isnt just for navigation, but they can naturally blast prey with their own sonar, making them create sonic weapons in the same way we would make a hunting spear into a pike.
 

Count Erick

Wight King
Dec 28, 2008
465
Well the official fluff mentions a spike shooting weapon, so that should be included.
Actually, I'm still waiting to see where it does mention spike weaponry.

Honestly, I don't really like the idea of using nano-machines as an offensive weapon.
Firstly, the nano-machines that are inside the Chyropterans must be microscopic in size, at least. These nano-machines are designed to HELP their host, not to destroy, kill, or break down carbon and use it to form new nanites.

Any nano-machines that are created for use in weaponry must be of a COMPLETELY different type, in both size and operation.
Divorced from Mars, without any advanced machinery other than what they brought on their SINGLE surviving ship, I see it as HIGHLY unlikely the Chyropterans would be able to develop a completely new type of nano-machine that's that advanced.

Also, if these nano-machines are going to be used as a weapon, they must be able to do the following things:
Be able to know what objects are Enemy and Friendly. This actually wouldn't be that hard, as Friendlies would probably have a device which transmits a code identifying them as Friendly, but the problem is this:
Nano-Machines designed to break down Carbon Molecules will not only break down Biological carbon molecules, BUT EVERYTHING.
Plants, animals, civilians, BUILDINGS. They will continue to replicate exponentially. There is a way around this however: you could build a 'timer' that could disable or kill the nanites at after a set amount of time after launch.
But think about it for a moment.
What if some small malfunction happened, and the timer didn't go off.
Everything on that planet is gone.

All this also begs the question: If the Chyropterans have invented Nanites so advanced they are only able to target Enemy Combatants, and will die off at after a set ammount of time (AKA: THE PERFECT NANITE WEAPON) Then:
Why don't they just drop a single bomb, with several of these nano-machines in it, and use them to completely wipe out all enemy resistance on the planet?

I think perhaps we have ridden the Nanite-horse a bit much, why don't we take it back to the barn and bring out some fresh steeds to try out, like the tried and true Laser-pony, or perhaps the oft neglected Psychological-attack-mare, or even the Energy-Draining-gelding?
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
Count Erick said:
Actually, I'm still waiting to see where it does mention spike weaponry.

I've posted a few times, the exact quote and reference, i really dont feel like doing it again so could you please check it out in the other posts.

Count Erick said:
All this also begs the question: If the Chyropterans have invented Nanites so advanced they are only able to target Enemy Combatants, and will die off at after a set ammount of time (AKA: THE PERFECT NANITE WEAPON) Then:
Why don't they just drop a single bomb, with several of these nano-machines in it, and use them to completely wipe out all enemy resistance on the planet?

Well this is where fluff comes it, you can easilly, easilly justify anything you want to do with them, come on! its sci-fi, heres some possibile limiters for you

short range - the nanobots do NOT think for themselves instead recieve commands via uplink, if that uplink is severed/turned off the nanobots do nothing.... this is i infact highly realistic -- instead of having memory inside the nanobot it simply functions as told (read up on it you'll see what i mean) - Theres lots more i can elaborate on this but i think you can conjure your own ideas

Inability to replicate - Offensive nanobots without a host to work in conjunction with perhaps no way of efficiently replicating, and lets face it, anything they do is going to ahve some sort of degredation, as the bots destroy whatever it is they are destroying they grind themselves down to uselessness

Limited power - As above, perhaps offensive bots have no way of generating power for themselves and have a limited life supply

And as for the perfect nanite bomb, well, what about the imperiums virus bombing? they can bombard a whole planet with viruses wiping out the living things, and leaving everything else inact, if you include any of the limitations above i mentioned i dont really see how this is that different (plus the vast amount of nanites required to do it would be limited)

if we need more reasoning i can throw some more ideas in
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
Already, right now in the real world, nanotechnology is already being looked at as a weapon. In secret, but there is little doubt its being looked at. Its already publicly being researched for other things.
Also, just because they leave the techpriests doesnt mean they become technologically backwards. Leaving the narrow minded imperium would free up these guys to do actual research and devise new tech without being burned at the stake. Also they would have all the alien facilities of the Cythor at their disposal. Mars isnt the center of the technology universe.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
Count Erick said:
Divorced from Mars, without any advanced machinery other than what they brought on their SINGLE surviving ship, I see it as HIGHLY unlikely the Chyropterans would be able to develop a completely new type of nano-machine that's that advanced.


I think perhaps we have ridden the Nanite-horse a bit much, why don't we take it back to the barn and bring out some fresh steeds to try out, like the tried and true Laser-pony, or perhaps the oft neglected Psychological-attack-mare, or even the Energy-Draining-gelding?

I fail to see what Mars has got to do with this. Who says every race's advanced technology must be derived from the AdMech? Tau being a case in point...

That aside, I think we should also have energy draining as another focal point, to anchor their ties to VC
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
How about an anti-vehicle weapon that saps its energy reserves, not doing damage, but disabling its systems (Im thinking like immobilising/weapon destroyed/ etc but non permanent)
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok let’s try and draw this back together, as we have ideas flying all over the place. It would be good if we can try and work through things in a logical fashion.

So firstly, some of the suggestions are there because they are “cool”, we need to keep things in perspective, and try and think why things would be produce, what tech they have as a basis to work from.

So I am going to go through some of the suggestions and give my thoughts:

Sonic Weaponry – Cythor
It seems there is some disagreement regarding the fluff on this. If indeed there is no fluff regarding the “spike” weapons I would much prefer to avoid using them. I like the idea of Cythor Fiends have just purely sonic weaponry, which again fits with our current background. Thinking further on it, the weapons could be crude tech, with the resonance created by a particular crystal found on that world, which is incorporated into the weapon.

The weapon differs from noise marines, as whilst noise marines use concussion force, the Cythor’s weaponry creates a sonic “tunnel” effect, which visibly looks almost like an energy beam. However it works by in way drilling into the target, using the sound waves to destabilize the molecules.

Sonic Weaponry – Chiro
Discovering the above tech, the Chiro’s have built on it, creating larger / faster firing versions.

Nano Weaponry
This seems to be a main area of misunderstanding, so I will clear up my ideas, and also touch on some of the suggestions:
Body Enhancements: There is no need for this. All those that have nanos are already as enhanced as they can be, creating our vampire type race.
Armour: Not practical. They don’t have an unlimited supply of nanobots, and they reproduce by fuelling themselves off their hosts blood. I think the Chiro’s would find making armour out of them a waste of time. It would however make more sense to develop the magnetic field / shield idea.
It makes much more sense as they all already have it, and it could be adaptable to different weaponry. In fact I have loads of ideas on this one which really need its own thread to discuss the different variations.
Nanobot Ammo – Nope. Not only would it be very difficult to program / create the nanobots, you also run the risk of the enemy capturing your bots in this fashion, especially if you are spraying them all over the place. When I mention enhanced weaponry, I mean targeting systems, increasing the output of an energy weapon.

Tech in General
Erick is right in one area. The Chiros would not have the massive resources, nor the full knowledge of the imperium to draw on. This would mean in some areas they are starting from scratch, on a barren planet. Whilst building on their tech is feasible, you have to remember their resources may be limited. This is the reason we can give for their sudden appearance into the 40k universe, along with looking for food and slaves.

Draining tech
Well we have the afore mentioned “Leech” integrated nano weapons which are ok. If you want a feeder weapon how about this:

Sonic Disrupter
A heavy weapon combining the sonic weaponry with nanobot control systems. The beam this weapon emits breaks down the bonds, but instead of dispersing them, pulls the energy along an inversed sonic pulse within the main beam. Whilst less destructive than its counterparts, it is excellent fro draining energy from automated weapon systems / tanks etc, rendering them useless.
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
I really like that weapon you wrote up there don, thats gold ( the way i envision that would look in my head, just pure awesome)

And interestingly enough, while reading page 44 of the black templars for fluff about cythor fiends, the first paragraph actually talks about something else

talks about a WARP SPAWNED VAMPRIE taking control of an imperial planet. lol wtf?

the snippet of fluff i got from cythor fiends was from here http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=136933.0
they are trying for quite an list of all the races, and they are trying to base it on fluff, they have a quote about cythor fiends apparently from the black templar codex, that states they use spike weapons, perhaps someone could confirm?
 

Count Erick

Wight King
Dec 28, 2008
465
I've posted a few times, the exact quote and reference, i really dont feel like doing it again so could you please check it out in the other posts.
And I responded to that before my last post on this thread. I'll post it again here:
Helbrecht immediately declared a crusade agaisnt the Cythor Fiends of the Ghoul Stars, taking the fight into this desolate region of space, from which no expedition had ever returned. Within eight years the xenos population of the outlying systems had been exterminated and the crusade pushed onwards to the aliens home world, but upon reaching the core systems, they where found to be eerily empty.
that is copied verbatim. There is no mention of any weaponry at all.

And as for the perfect nanite bomb, well, what about the imperiums virus bombing? they can bombard a whole planet with viruses wiping out the living things, and leaving everything else inact, if you include any of the limitations above i mentioned i dont really see how this is that different (plus the vast amount of nanites required to do it would be limited)
The Virus Bombs used by the Imperium for Exterminatus do not wipe out all living things and leave everything else intact.
When the Virus Bombs begin breaking down all biological life on the planet, HUGE amounts of flammable gasses are released into the atmosphere.
At this point the ships in orbit fire a single shot into the planets atmosphere, which ignites these gasses, causing a planet-wide firestorm of unbelievable heat.
Everything on the planet is turned to ash. Nothing but dirt survives.

The Diference between this and the possible Nanite-bomb, is that in the Imperium's Exterminatus, the planet is rendered useless. Completely useless. It becomes nothing but an asteroid with even its atmosphere burnt away.
The Nanite-Bomb would be infinitely more viable as a weapon, and it would not need "vast amount of nanites" as they would simply reproduce exponentially.

Also, just because they leave the techpriests doesnt mean they become technologically backwards. Leaving the narrow minded imperium would free up these guys to do actual research and devise new tech without being burned at the stake.
This is a one of the great misunderstandings of 40K. The Adeptus Mechanics DOES in fact, research new technology, it simply takes them many centuries to to test that technology, and then put it into the field.
The assault cannons space marines use? Those are not STC weapons, they where developed by Mars.
Titans? Those are not STC weapons, they where developed by Mars.

I fail to see what Mars has got to do with this. Who says every race's advanced technology must be derived from the AdMech? Tau being a case in point...
...The only reason I can possibly imagine you would post that Sweeny is if you hadnet botherd to read any of the background we have come up with.
We have established the fact that Chyropterans where techpriests. OF COURSE THEIR ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY IS DERIVED FROM THE ADEPTUS MECHANICUS.
Additionly, I never stated once that 'every races advanced technology must be derived from the AdMech'. I guess not only are you not reading the background that we have decided upon, your also not even bothering to read what I've been typing.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok lets calm it down a little please. This is meant to be fun, not a heated discussion ;)

Erick, what do you think of my views on the weapon discussion? (couple of posts up)
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
Count Erick said:
that is copied verbatim. There is no mention of any weaponry at all.
Yep, thats why i asked for confirmation, i quoted from some trusty sources that made lists of races based on fluff only. I dont have the black templars book to skim through it, yes i've read page 44 and see that there is only that little snippet there, but one of the things mentioned was a battle report somewhere in that book, i cant confirm or deny

Im not trying to fight you on this, or insist we use spike tech (i'd prefer we not too) i just wanna make sure things are accurate, your being a little too aggresive and i just wanna start by apologizing if i rubbed you the wrong way on any point, im not trying to shoot you down or anyhing, again, just wanna make sure its all accurate

Count Erick said:
The Nanite-Bomb would be infinitely more viable as a weapon, and it would not need "vast amount of nanites" as they would simply reproduce exponentially.

ok, first of all, like i said, there could be many limitations to stop this, second off your just assuming that the nanites would have the ability to perfectly reproduce and keep going. Like i said, its sci-fi! you can easily justify it not working because of a bunch of limiting factors you throw into the fluff, least of which being they cant reproduce :P -- I do get where your comming from but i think your going a little overboard on what you think nanotech will be able to do, its all theoretical and untill it exists and works its sci-fi and you can fluff it (within reason) how you want. Personally, how you view nanotech working is entirely different than i do.

If we wanna use nanotech offensively, we can easily justify and throw in fluff, if we dont then its a moot point, so that should be decided (and would put an end to some arguing)


And sorry if it seems its getting a little heated DON, never meant for that to happen, everythings staying civil ;)
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
Who cares if they are away from Mars. Sci-fi. It doesnt have to be plausible, it just has to be cool. We dont want our guys to be orcs do we?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Actually Sanai – that is entirely wrong. The idea of this project is to create a race that can plausibly fit in with the 40K universe, which means fitting in with the pre-existing fluff. Creating cool stuff just for the sake of it, without indepth thought and why / how it fits, will just result in a failed project that no on will take seriously.

Now, no more arguments please. If you want to argue do it via PM or elsewhere.

Back on topic – I have made some comments regarding the tech – any opinions please?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, so are we ok with building on the following then:

Cythor Weapons: Sonic weapons, crude design but potent, fuelled by crystals found only on their homeworld?
Chiro Weapons: Based on the Cythor weapons, however majorily upgraded, output and targetting systems enhanced with nanobots. This will form the basis of the heavy weapons, tank type weapons etc?
Cythor Armour: None / minimal such as leather.
Chiro armour: Nanobot shielding, varying in effectiveness depending on the percentage of nanobots in the host body.

If everyone is ok with that, we can perhaps start looking more indepth how each piece of tech would work?
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
Yeah looks great so far

Disciple of Nagash said:
Chiro armour: Nanobot shielding, varying in effectiveness depending on the percentage of nanobots in the host body.

Hrmm interesting, kinda just puts an idea in my head of them able to dedicate high percentages of nanobots in thier body to defense, or to offense, but not both, could be interesting.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
beeblicon said:
Yeah looks great so far

Disciple of Nagash said:
Chiro armour: Nanobot shielding, varying in effectiveness depending on the percentage of nanobots in the host body.

Hrmm interesting, kinda just puts an idea in my head of them able to dedicate high percentages of nanobots in thier body to defense, or to offense, but not both, could be interesting.

I like that idea, a trade off between defense and attack, could give them the option for very powerful defense and attack but keep them balanced because they can't use both at once (plus maybe some middle ground).
 

beeblicon

Black Knight
Dec 27, 2009
355
How bout some sort of long range impaler? heck you say it launches barbed carbine shafts, connected to the gun via some sort of nano steel wire? (or just steel wire)...could even use sonic propulsion or dons idea with that heavy weapon. This would obviously be a shorter ranged heavy weapon, shoot it at the target, it impales them and opens up its barbs, then quickly drags/reels them back in. Obviously this gun would be to "capture". In game? well perhaps any target slain by the weapon who's toughness is lower than the firing models str is considered captured. For each captured model the cythor fiends get +1vp at the end of the game?
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
My bad - I somehow missed out the first page of the background thread.

Regarding the impaler thing, the trouble is 5th ed largely doesn't use VP any more. And it would be a bit unfair if every captured model nets you bonus KP, as that can stack up really fast. The nanobots attack and defense thing sounds cool but it seems a bit unwieldy for a mechanic meant to see play.

BTW would you guys want to have 'life leeching' as a branch of their weapon technology? Or perhaps as part of their psychic powers?
 

About us

  • Our community has been around for many years and pride ourselves on offering unbiased, critical discussion among people of all different backgrounds. We are working every day to make sure our community is one of the best.

Quick Navigation

User Menu