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Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
So we need to start looking more indepth into our 40k vampires.

NB - This is for fluff / background, not stats!

Just how strong are they going to be?
What powers do they have?
What different houses will there be?

I have some thoughts but not the time to post yet, so I will let you all get talking first.
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
Well, I would tentativly put forward that for houses, we should at least have one that is stealthy and skilled at espionage, perhaps with shape shifting. Also, do we want a house that has psychic powers?
 

Count Erick

Wight King
Dec 28, 2008
465
Just how strong are they going to be?

I would be very, VERY hesitant to make them stronger or tougher than a Space Marine.
I'm sure most of you realize, that the profile of a space marine is NOT reflected in the rules to the degree of what it is per background, because if it was, Space Marines would be S6 T6, and a single squad would cost in the nature of 500+ points.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
When you say that Erick, what type of Chiro do you mean?

The oldest or original progenitors I imagine to be much stronger to be honest that even a space marine. Their whole body has basically been redesigned and augmented beyond anything that even the spaces marines have. Basically I imagine them to be monsterous creatures in human form.

However (before I get the OP rant xd), the original progenitors and even their direct offspring would be few and far between to balance this out.

In regards to the most populous generations, then yes I agree they be on par with the space marines, with the exception of being faster perhaps.

Sanai:

I do think we should have a Lahmian-esque house. As Erick said before, they can be stealthy sharp shooters etc.

I think we do want Psykers, the main question would be, do we want them all to have some kind of Psyker power same as VC, or only some Chiro's to have the power?
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
I reckon that psychic power should be limited to some.
Will the psychic power be purely for influencing people, or will they be able to zap people with it too?

Also, how vulnerable to the warp are chiros?
 

Count Erick

Wight King
Dec 28, 2008
465
Yes, I was referring to the 'typical' chyropteran with my comment. I do think that the progenitors should have greater stats than a marine.


I think we do want Psykers, the main question would be, do we want them all to have some kind of Psyker power same as VC, or only some Chiro's to have the power?
I think all of them should have the ability to control/heal the nanite-zombies, but other powers should be purchased, with some being only for certain households.

But this does ask the question: What is the Chyropterans relationship with the forces of Chaos?
 

Knightofni

Varghulf
True Blood
Aug 31, 2009
758
Actually I don't think that the Chiro's should be compareable to SM's, even the really old ones. Because they're human(ish), and less biologically enhanced than a SM.. yes they would have adapted they're own bodies to become stronger but nowhere near enough to beat seven foot of specifically engineered killing machine.

Think of it this way.. would an Imperial Techpriest.. or even the Fabricator General of Mars be as tough or as strong as a Space Marine and they're practically robots.


Personally I would be more inclined to go with the stealth-espionage route.. by all means give them weapons that can take on Space Marines in CC, but I really don't see them as lumbering hulks of muscle that could shrug off all that a SM could. If they have heavy augumetics then this could be represented by a invulnerability save or something but I'd steer clear of upping their strength and toughness.

Think DE characters.. nasty in CC but brittle, thus incouraging the player to use tactics and guile rather than pigheaded resilience.
 

Count Erick

Wight King
Dec 28, 2008
465
Think of it this way.. would an Imperial Techpriest.. or even the Fabricator General of Mars be as tough or as strong as a Space Marine and they're practically robots.

A better comparison would to contrast a Skitarii and a Space Marine.
Skitarii are, like Space Marines, specifically adapted down to a genetic level to be killing machines, and also have the technological might of the Adeptus Mechanicus at their disposal.

Can the Adeptus Mechanicus create millions of soldiers equal to and better than Space Marines?
Hell yes. The elite units of the Skitarii, the Praetorian Servitors, are comparable to Terminators.
Will they? No. The reason being: It would cost the Forge World a hell of a lot to make all their Skitarii this powerful, and Skitarii are primarily a defense force, or support for the vehicles of the Mechanicus.

I dunno...this is a tough question, because on the one hand the Tech Priests who where 'test subjects' where not warriors, and while the Nanites would enhance them, would it really be to the level of Space Marine? (a being designed by the Emperor to be the apex of infantry level military might)
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
I think we should remember, while they originally came from the tech priests, they arent tech priests anymore. They are something different, almost alien. Lets just make them as vampire like as possible while being balanced, and follow the following rule- Keep it Cool, Silly (I call it K.I.C.S :p)
Lets just do whats cool, and then use whatever fluff we need to explain it away.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Sanai – I have given my thoughts on your cool concept in the weapons thread – basically I don’t agree with it.

Knightofni – The way I see it is as follows:

Humans can be genetically modified, basically because it’s surprising how little of our bodies we actually use, how much potential is wasted in them. They can be tuned very high.

Space Marines are tuned very high, with the gene therapy etc, making them the killing machines they are. However on a scale of say 100%, where being a human is 0% i.e operating at base efficiency, I would say SM are around 50%. Might not sound a lot until you realise that is basically 50 humans rolled into one.

The way I see it, the progenitors have been enhanced to max. Every single cell in their body has been tuned to deliver maximum output, maximum efficiency. Everything is working in perfect harmony, the downside being the need to drink blood. So basically these guys are working at 100%, therefore should have much better stats.

HOWEVER – this relates just to the original progenitors. The later generations which will be the most populace in the army would be weaker.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Yes that is true. Realistically they should be better than the Cythor Friends, well the older generations should be at any rate.
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
So, from what I have seen, stealthy ninja killing in melee sounds like a nice idea for them, so, how good are they at it? If I was to put a list from top to bottom of whos good at stealthy ninja stuff, with the top being the best, where do they sit?
(I am not sure if the below list is correct, its just from the top of my head)
Ctan (this is justified as being top of the list because I have read in the old assasins codex I think it was, or was it the necron one a bit where a disguised ctan outfoxes and pwns a polymorphine assassin who didnt realise the ctan was anything but a corrupt human governor)
Imperial Assassins (Because they seem to be able to infiltrate and assasinate against almost any race)
Eldar (In daemonifuge one of them was on Terra I think. Thats pretty ninja.)
Chaos
Tau (Stealth suits baby)
marines (They can be stealthy when they want to, but really, at some point the 7 foot tall guy in huge clunky armour is gunna be detected)
Guard (They are actually okay at his compared to orks and stuff)

I think your average chiroptean should sit maybe on the level of an imperial assasin, or between the eldar and an assasin (a non polymorphine one, unless we have a house of chiropteans who can shapeshift) while progenitors outninja any assasin, but the ctan would sit at the top always.

What do you guys think?
Remember that anything I say on this is always just a suggestion, so lets not get too heated.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
I don't know on this one, as I am not too sure on the indepth fluff of some of the above.

I would suggest:

Progenitor (general) - Between Elder & Imperial Assassin
Progenitor (House specialising in subterfuge) - Between Imperial Assassin and C'tan
Younger Chiro's (general) - between chaos / Eldar
Younger Chiro's (House specialising in subterfuge)) - Between Elder & Imperial Assassin

That's just a guess? I am sure those who know a bit more about 40K background can help.
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
Okay, and if we have a psyker house, how powerful in their control of the warp?
I think definatly less powerful than the eldar, maybe even less powerful than space marine librarians.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
In regards to psyker abilties, I am with Erick on this. I would say they all have inante control over their nano subjects - I think this should not have a range limit however or we start acting similar to 'nids.

Then I think we should have some generic powers for all the Chiro's (HQ ones anyway), low level fluffy ones. Then yes I agree that we have some house specific ones, with the "psyker" house having some uber power.

In regards to chaos, I am not sure to be honest of their relationship with the Chiros - what are others thoughts?
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
Well Fantasy VCs as far as I have heard on these forums at least seem to control the winds of magic (which come from chaos the same as psychic powers do in 40k) without any effect on them from the chaosyness. Yes, the evil of it warps them, but the chaosy stuff has little or no effect.
Either way, we will be deviating from something. If we make em innume to chaos, thats deviating from 40k fluff alot. If we make them not innume, thats deviating from VC. Tricky decision. Some kind of freakish innumity due to a different kind of more subtle warp power maybe.
 
Or perhaps just make their 'magic' some from a completely speate direction?
We know these guys love nanobots, and we know that they have experimented on themselves a lot, so why not combine the 2: Nanobots implanted into them which boost their weak innate powers. That way it fits the technology and even better; gives the option for Magic Levels!
Aka - More Nanobots = Higher level.

Thoughts?
 

Morbraelle

Zombie
Jan 5, 2010
27
im thinking it's more like they focus their nanobots in different ways, to boost either their physiology, mental capacity, dexterity etc, as opposed to just the sheer quantity of the nanobots that make them all-round more powerful.
 

Morbraelle

Zombie
Jan 5, 2010
27
it does, however i'm thinking since the chiros were originally tech-adepts of Mars, they didn't originally have any innate powers, other than mechanical knowhow and bionic enhancements that tech priests love to sport.. Once the nanobots were introduced, it became mind over matter, and some chiro's i imagine strove to perfect their minds, other their bodies, etc. I do agree that the older Chiros with superior generations of the nanos would have more control over their development, where the weaker subsequent generations would have less control, but would further resemble the aspects that their sire chose to emulate.
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
firstly, sorry for wandering in unnanounced after being inactive for so long :redface:

secondly, the below quote from the weapons thread got me thinking about the chiropteran "zombies". in terms of general game rules vis-a-vis the background DoN put together (which i have only skimread sofar, so apologies for any mistakes/glaring errors/whatever). i apologise if this isnt the place for rule-theorycrafting, but i'll most likely forget before i can do anything better, and i have cobbled together a semi fluffish justification that might be viable in any case...my concept is pretty damned vague anyway lol :mrgreen:

Disciple of Nagash said:
Chiro “Zombie” Armweapon.

This barrel shaped weapon is surgically grafted to the zombies army which has been amputated below the elbow. The firing circuitry is attacked to the neural impulses of the hosts arm.
Inside this cannon instead of the singular crystal like the Cythor weapons which produces a short range blast, there is an array of smaller crystals arranged in a circular fashion. Upon an impulse form the hosts neural system, the nanobots in the weapon emit an electromagnetic field with similar sonic properties as the Cythors. This results in the crystals activating, and thanks to their more advanced arrangement etc, fire a tighter, longer ranged sonic pulse. The nanobots firing the weapon then must enter the hosts blood stream to recharge, however these are small enough in number to not require the host to feed, however it does mean the weapon is quite slow firing, (i.e one shot per turn).

anyway. what i was thinking is that these zombies could be, after a certain fashion, similar to slaved-servitors. they would be "bound" to the controller through minute electrical impulses emitted by the controll ing chiropteran tech-priest, which enables the use of the weapon and target designation and prioritisation along basic tactical protocols. in the event that the controlling chiropteran (god im having trouble spelling that right lol) becomes incapatitated (i.e. a casualty in game) this low level signal is interrupted, and the nanobots revert to simpler (i.e. the most basic level) of programming.

what this could theoretically equate to would be similar to the death of the general for a VC army, but instead of chiro-zombies dropping dead they suffer penalties to their bs and i characteristics (-1 to each)? these zombies might also have the fearless quality (assuming it still exists, i dont have the most recent ruleset)

and another little bit, in reference to shielded heavy skimmers: how about some sort of *technobabble on!* "phasic-transubstantial field" which means that an attack is caught within multiple overlapping low power forcefields, which have the effect of the attack basically hitting several hulls before reaching the real one? the ingame effect could be that a ranged attack can never do better than glancing on a 5 and penetrating on a 6 (or something like that, this is likely overpowered) with the trade off being that vehicles so equipped have lower than average armour for their points (so no armour 14 for example...armour 13 might be the highest attainable).

what do people think?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
I like both of those ideas of lot actually Meier. We do need some kind of control for the zombies, which your idea looks like a pretty good basis.

The multiple shields is an interesting one. As I said before I think we can do a lot with the shields, and personally I think we should as a "unique" aspect of this race.

Perhaps one of the heavy skimmers armaments could be a shield generator? Thus this could be a destroyed by a weapon destroyed result? The actual shield tech itself I am not sure about the above....hmmmm. Perhaps we could have different shield modules, that can be bought as an upgrade to the skimmers?

One module could just be pure high defensive shielding as above, one could be adaptive (maybe you can change the armour values per turn with this, weakening defence on one side to increase on another?), one could be camoflauge shielding etc?

Depending on the type it could cost x amounts of upgrade, plus it could take up so many weapons slots on the vehicle. So if we designate all the heavy skimmers have 3 weapons slots, then the strongest shield could take up all the weapons slots, meaning poor offence but great defence.

Just some ideas?
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
firstly, i think that the idea for the weapon points being used for the shield is decent, perhaps with a little modification, but ill think more on that later.

i think the different shield forms could be used for different hull-roles.

for example, a scout vehicle (possibly a similar overall loadout to an SM landspeeder) could have the camo one, which could make it so it counts as moving at full speed for enemy shooting purposes (requiring a 6 to hit unless thats changed-i cant remember the details...is it over 12" that this comes into effect?) whilst moving slower. as a trade off we could make it so it is not technically "fast". it would only have a 12" move speed, but if it moves over 6" it gains the bonus of the camo-field.

my idea could remain with the heavy tanks (leman russ/land raider equivalents as a minimum, up to and including titans if the cythor/chiro have them, though im betting rules for titans would make that moot tbh), and medium tanks (around the level of predators, chimera talos', falcons etc...) could sacrifice firing the main gun so that power is used to shift armour values? so that, for example, tank A is flanked on two sides, 1 by a predator, the other by an SM squad with a heavy bolter, and tank A cannot turn to take the predators shot on its front, nor can it kill the predator (weapon too weak or crew shaken). it sacrifices the ability to fire the main gun so it can reallocate an armour value so the predator cannot so easily manage a penetrating hit on it, and it can still fire its secondary guns against the SM squad.

what dyou think?

ps-i gotta admit this shield concept really took me too :)
 

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