VC 40k - Physiology Of a Fiend

[beeblicon]

In addendum to the other threads here, which discuss a lot of society and tech that the cythor fiends have, i think it would be prudent to start a seperate discussion about the physiology or looks of a cythor fiend

What we know: - 7+ feet tall, strong, leering jaws with sharp teeth, bulging blue eyes, wings, and dagger like apendages

So we have a lot of how they look on the outside, whats left? well i have a few ideas im going to toss out there, get some feedback on

Brain of a bat-

Seeing as they are very bat like, we could build upon that, perhaps they have sonic location/radar? blindsight, this could have many functions, detecting hidden enemies, removing bonuses for defensive grenades, perhaps coupled with devastating randed weapons --- allow them (like one of the new tyranid units) to ignore cover when shooting, or to not have to draw a line of sight?

now that would be devastating randed weaponry, able to pinpoint and destroy hidden targets because they all know thier location

Another idea i had about them is, they seem, on the whole, extremely hardy, hard to kill, slow to die. Now bear with me here but i see some star trek posibilities...... Perhaps thier cells of thier body are very slow to break down after death, meaning thier neurons can still fire, thier brain cells in general degrade very slowly (instead of rapidly like ours)

Could have several uses like - Mechanically reviving the dead fiend later on with only slight brain damage - Recycling of the dead (keeping away from necrons) perhaps they harvest thier own dead for the neurons located in their brain, perhaps (heres the star trek thingy) they use the neurons in thier computer tech/weaponry? would be the fastest thinking computers there is <---- theres lots of things to expand on from here, all kinds of dreadnaughts/zombies/undead.... also makes me imagine a cortex of recycled and almalgamated brains functioning together as one super computer for them to use, heck they could even glean information from thier dead, or plug in fresh species dead to glean thiers?

Also, allows symbiosis of armor/weapons!

Body of the bat

Wings - I see these as light, allowing only personal flight, equipping a cythor with heavier armor and weaponry either greatly reduces thier flight capacity, or nullifies it altogeather, so flying units would likely be lightly armed and armoured (as seems to be the norm) <--- but lets take a page out of dark eldar, assault 4 weapons on flying? sounds like cythor carbon weapons to me (tho i say we make them use sonic weapons)

Natural Weapons
While there is lots of talk of eviscerating weapons, i say thier natural weapons just function as close combat weapons. You dont want to go and give them great shooting, then great cc, you'll end up with high priced uber warriors, perhaps these weapons combined with thier natural strength just give them a really good str score?

Sonic weaponry
Why under physiology you say? perhaps they have neural links to thier weapons (yes borrowed kinda from eldar) but i see these being more hardwired than eldarish, and also, perhaps more so hardwired into thier echo location sensing part of thier brain, brain locates targets and fires upon targets almost instantly.

sonic energy could pass through walls/barriers theoretically, but at a lower strength?

Suggested statline?
WS 3
BS 3
S 4
T 4
W 1
I 3
A 1
L 7

Of course, once bloodlines and the idea behind them are determined/established we should put the ideas here, as they will change things
I could see larger breeds of fiends bred for pure cc madness, and lithe camoflauged ones for assasinations

fits in well with the fluff too considering they breed like crazy (yay selective breeding)

 

[Onikaigo]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

...i think it would be prudent to start a seperate discussion about the physiology or looks of a cythor fiend

Umm....am I the only one lost here? A Cyhor Fiend? Link?

 

[Count Erick]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

For their profile, I think:
WS/4 BS/3 S/4 T/3 W/1 I/4 A/1(or 2) LD/7

Would be more appropriate.

Also, I think you might be overestimating the capabilities of Echolocation in biological animals.
Echolocation does NOT let you detect things through solid objects. Echolocation is noise the bounces off solid objects and returns to your ears.
This functions almost exactly the way sight does, you see light being absorbed or reflected from a surface, and interpret it.
The ONLY advantage that Echolocation has over sight, is that it doesn't need light in order to detect an object.

detecting hidden enemies

They would, indeed, not be fooled by things like Stealth technology, so yes, I can see them ignoring things like Stealth Fields used by the Tau or the Holofields of the Falcon

removing bonuses for defensive grenades

The prime example for defensive grenades are the Photon grenades used by the tau, which not only emit a blinding pulse of light, but also a defining noise.
If anything, the Fiends would probably be MORE vulnerable to this.

allow them (like one of the new tyranid units) to ignore cover when shooting, or to not have to draw a line of sight?

In virtually all cases, being in cover represents the combatant hiding behind some structure, be it a tree, lamp post or low wall.
Echolocation will be of no extra use in such situations, as the sound will bounce back from the object, just like light.

If in doubt just remember: Echolocation will ignore optical illusions, NOT physical barriers. A bat cant tell a whats behind a wall in front of it any more than you can, the only difference is that it can see the wall without any light.

 

[beeblicon]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

For their profile, I think:
WS/4 BS/3 S/4 T/3 W/1 I/4 A/1(or 2) LD/7

Also, I think you might be overestimating the capabilities of Echolocation in biological animals.

No i definetly was over-estimating, i just thought it would be cool :D

Also my first thought on a statline was a lot more like yours, only it just seems to be all over the place (which some armies have been in the past, but gw seems to be balancing things out)

Your probably right on the higher initiative, now that i think about it, and actually, echolocation perhaps would increase this still?

 

[Morbraelle]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/warbeasts/nephilim-soldier

I could see a Cythor fiend in this guy. he looks tough, bat-like, subterranean, and definitely would benefit from echolocation since he doesnt seem to have eyes!

Perhaps we could use Epic Thagrosh as either the cythor fiend alpha-bat, or the Chiro equivalent of a strigoi.

The cryxian warjacks, warcasters, mechanithralls, heck, nine-tenths of the army looks just about perfect for our concepts!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Just a note: As per the User Project guidelines this is not the place to start discussing rules. First we get all the background fluff sorted, then draw up a rough army list, then discuss individual units. Lets not jump ahead of ourselves here please.

In fact until we have agreed on the Chiro / Cythro fiend I think this thread should go on hold.

 

[beeblicon]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Just a note: As per the User Project guidelines this is not the place to start discussing rules. First we get all the background fluff sorted, then draw up a rough army list, then discuss individual units. Lets not jump ahead of ourselves here please.

In fact until we have agreed on the Chiro / Cythro fiend I think this thread should go on hold.

Sorry, i wasnt really meaning to get into the units particular stats/equipment/etc, i was really more focusing on the fluff aspect of it

not a lot about them is known, and some of the things about them could really affect the fluff you are using to determine whats what.

But yeah, i'll hold :D

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

That's ok, I understand where you are coming from. If we have agreed that the Cythor Fiends will be subjugated by the Chiro's (which is my vote), then as soon as that is definite we can then start looking at other areas more indepth.

We will need this thread to explore and develop the Cythor Fiends anyway, as we will have to develop their history as well.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

We are ok to use this thread now based on the agreed background discussion.

 

[dougan_2]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

if they use the echo location of a bat then wouldn't it be good rule-wise to say that they can see normaly in night fighting rules? Or see further then a normal squad? Also if they fly then deepstrike ofcourse or give them fleet?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Right then, so we are continuing the baqckground and fluff discussion, on the premise that the Cythors will be more the shock troops of our army.

Now I would imagine in them to be very offensive, but limited in defense. From the little fluff I have seen, if you let one of them get into combat it's not really a good thing, and they have some potent weaponry.

So based on that, and looking at the rest of the thread:

Wings - I think these should be fully functional (I hated the varhgulf having half-wings), meaning the Cythor Fiends can truly fly, similar to the way a bat flies.

Echo-Location - I like this idea, and it makes sense with them living in caves. It can also tie in with my suggestion in the other thread about their weaponry being powered by a crystal, as their "sight" would have picked up the resonance of these crystals. So this should mean they can see perfectly well in the dark, see through illusions, smoke bombs etc. I can't remember where I read it (was one of these threads), but someone wrote about them having fly-like eyes, with lots of cells? These cells transmit and collect the signals and enable them to produce accurate readings? I like this concept.

Claws - Fluff states they are meant to have very nasty claws. I think this should be a long hooked claw, that evolved over time to help them grip to the cave wall (where I would imagine they sleep, like bats xd). This has developed into a very strong claw, able to penetrate most / all armour.

Musculature - I would imagine they are more lithe than bulky, with wiry strength. This would mean they can deliver quite damaging blows, but have trouble taking damage in return.

Intelligence - Reasonable. These aren't dumb creatures, but vicious warriors who know how to fight, and have developed weapons to help them do so. I would imagine that have a society based in the physcially strongest ruling, but they have the intelligence not to kill those who are weak but intelligent, instead putting them to use to produce things.

Ethics / Morality - I don't think we should dismiss them as being entirely brutal killers, such as the DE. Instead I would say they are potent warriors who will not hold back to attack anyone who they consider their enemy, or who comes onto their territory. When they do attack, they do so with their full fury, giving the impression of mindless killers.
However to each other, or if you somehow gain their respect, they are loyal to one another, and live by a strict code of conduct, ritualistic duels of strength and challenge etc. Bit like Klingons in Star Trek.

 

[beeblicon]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Yeah, you pretty much got it summed up DON

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Great to hear you agree.

Anyone else, I am sure more people agreed to work on this project than who are actually posting o.o Surely some others must have comments, ideas........post dammit!!

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Yeah that sounds pretty good.

I will help out more when it comes to rules :vampire3: but i'm not particually good on the background front.

Imperium shoots aliens etc, aliens shoot imperium back pretty much sums up what i know about 40k background, oh and quite a bit about Nightlords (which won't help much here).

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Fair enough CRD - but you had better be there when we start working on rules which won't be too long!

So I was thinking more of the relationship between the Fiends and their sonic weapons. I was thinking that perhaps they have some way with their natural sonic abilities to activate it, creating a short range sonic pulse? This would explain why their weapons are still potent when compared to the nano ones, as they can use them naturally? Thoughts?

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Wow. I didn't even notice this being stsrted up, I missed the background discussion!

Oh well, I'l get over it. As to in-built sonic weaponry im guessing you're thinking they have weapons that amplify the Fiends own sonic 'abilities'.
If this is the case then the weapon would need to have some kind of resonance chamber, to reflect the sound waves back on themselves and build up the pressure, then have a release mechanism to send the sound in a specific direction. If this was the case then the Fiend needs some way to start the sound waves in the weapon. This 'starter-motor' effect would be caused by vibrations, so either the Fiend has one hell of a loud voice, or some other part of its body vibrates. Im of the opinion that another part of the body vibrates, and the most realistic place I can imagine would be the wings. If they beat at a high enough frequency then the vibrations in the air could be sent to the weapon and fired as a pulse.

However, I see 2 problems with this theory:
1) How would the sound waves be collected and sent to the 'weapon'? I can't amagine anything other than a giant scoop, which is ridiculous.
1) If we get an answer for the first problem, and the wings beating power the weapon - could the Fiends still fly? If they have apparatus to use the vibrations to power the weapons, then surely this would intefere with the ability to fly as it would obstruct the wings.

 

[Sanai]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Perhaps not. The vibrations of the wingbeats would pass throught the Cythors body and perhaps modulate the weapons frequency in some way, or perhaps modulates the frequency of the power source to keep it stable.
Depends where the sounds waves come from for the power source. Assuming it comes from the mouth, perhaps just a small gasmasklike mouthbit which transmits the sound signals to the weapon. These sound signals are then amplified and shot out the weapon.
Also, how did the Cythor evolve the sound pulse as a natural weapon? Im thinking that they took echolocation, and extended it to blast their prey with disorientating sound waves. (Im guessing their favoured prey may have been something smaller than the cythor, and flying, perhaps even another echolocator, or something with strong hearing, so they used the vibrations of their soundwaves to send waves of turbulence thru the air to mess up their preys flying, and used the intense noise to burst the eardrums of their prey, then snapping up the tasty morsel.

Another thing I think is important, is the reproduction. I know, 40k doesnt normally explore this, but I reckon its important for a batlike alien race.
So, I think bats do live young which they carry with them on their backs, but we may wish to change this, perhaps egg sacks that dangle in clusters from the ceiling? Like on Van Helsing? And how fast do they spread? Are we talking like one or two babies with long gestation, or do these things breed like rabbits and quickly overpopulate the place?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

As noted in the weapons chapter, I have posted about the Cythor weapons being fuelled by a crystal which is activated by sonic pulses emitted in the same way as their echolocation? I think this would make it a lot simplier than messing around with wings?

As for reproduction - I like the egg idea with Van Helsing, though I would say they have kids similar to humans time period wise.

 

[Sanai]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

Great :p I loved the awesome gross egg sacks hanging from the ceiling in Van Helsing.

Also, what kind of morality do fiends have? Do they have honour? Do they even care about family? Would they eat their own mother if they were hungry?
And how advanced are they before the Chiros come in? Do they have space travel? Did they have warp engines?

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

I was thinking that perhaps they have some way with their natural sonic abilities to activate it, creating a short range sonic pulse?

If you want their weapons powered by crystals, then what is this 'natural sonic ability' to which you refer?

And yes, Egg sacks are cool and gross, so perfect.

 

[Morbraelle]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

the natural sonic ability to which he is referring is the advanced echolocation that the cythors employ to navigate the vast, lightless subterranean caverns in which they developed. After encountering the Chiro's, i imagine the tech-savvy vamps probably found some way of amplifying their sonic capabilities, perhaps with some indigenous crystals. (although thats sounding a little too much of a knock-off of vespid technology to me)

I would like to see their sonic attack as some sort of debuff, like a minus to initiative, or lowered leadership stats. this seems more believable and stylish, as i see these guys fitting into the scheme as fast assault monsters!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

As Morbraelle says, they can emit sounds to use echolocation. They then found a certain frequency they can emit can cause the crystals to discharge.

I imagine them to be a lot less advanced that the Chiro's, but they are innately intelligent. Thus they we able to fashion this into a weapon which fired a short ranged sonic burst.

 

[Meier Lenk]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

one thing that is (afaik) universally the case amongst flying animals is that they have a very light bone structure; this would "put the kybosh" on them being too tough physically, but it also makes them faster...if we decide this is the case for the cythor, then i dont see it too unfeasable that they should be relatively weak in physical terms, but very nimble and agile in their own (presumably) graceless way. at the moment (seeing as van hellsing has been mentioned) im thinking that they might look like the vampires in that to an extent....have we got a general shape for them yet? becuase i am imagining vestigial forearms that are used to hold their equipment or use tools atm, with the knife like claws on their wings and their legs being used for climbing and gripping the walls of their homes.

also, (assuming no one else has said this yet, ive only skimread this thread so far, as im rather tired. ill delete this comment if appropriate) the cythor, in the development of their weapons will have had to be careful with the frequency at which they work, lest the disrupt their ability to "see" using echolocation; i would think their sight would use very specific frequencies of sound and any overlap would cause "optical illusions" or the like.

 

[Sanai]

RE: Physiology Of a Fiend

While in mythology and stuff angels/harpies/dragons are often depicted as having 2 legs, 2 arms, and a pair of wings on their back, this is never the case in nature.



As you can see in this diagram, a wing is actually an arm that has been evolved for flight. See where that claw is, how the structure of the wing comes off that bit? Those long things are actually fingers, connected by a big bit of stretched skin.
Also notice the claw. Bats use that claw to help them climb and stuff. Now here is how we sci-fi it up and make a batlike creature able to manipulate objects. What we do is it has more fingers, so where that single claw is, we have a handlike structure made up of fingers, so that the wing is now also a working arm with graspers.

Now, for moving around on the ground. Heres a pic of a bat "galloping"



Notice how it uses the clawed part of its wings to help it move. Sorta like when a pteranodon walks (except a pteranodon is more upright due to its large size.)
Also anologous to a monkey or ape walking with its hands as forelimbs.
However, a cythor is sentient, and a sentient being needs to be able to use its hands to do stuff, like operate tools and weapons. So I propose we take a page out of the primates book, and give it multiple ways of locomotion
1# Most comfortable and fastest method of walking, the quadrupedal method. Wings fold back, enabling it to use its hands like a gorrillas knuckles are used.
2# Upright walking. Walks on its hind legs. Is slower, but frees up the hands.
3# Fly.

Now, this would affect the way they fight, because for them to run or fly, they need to holster their weapon. I would imagine them having a strap or sling which there weapon is on, so when they wanna use their wings or their hands for locomotion, they just let go of there weapon and it hangs on their back.

The GW varghulf is modelled as using quadrupedal locomotion for walking, but still uses its claws to swipe at things, and could probably stand on its hind legs.

 

[Bishop]

That's pretty cool (the bats stuff).

Hey DoN, I too only agreed to help with the rules aspect. When you guys start working on that shoot me a PM or make an anouncement so that I/we can participate in the rules process.