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Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Yeah, if that's on a heavy support type vehicle, i have no prob with Str9, Lance. (Thinking along the lines of Hammerhead w/Rail Gun in terms of power level) As long as theres only a couple... that should be fine.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Yes that is exactly the kind of power level I was thinking of.

Now do you or anyone else have any ideas? Also was looking at the "Wide Beam" rule, does anyone else think it is poor compared to the other rules?
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
actually DoN thats the only rule i personally couldnt think of anything to argue over :lol:

im envisaging a mass produced weapon (i.e. troops sidearms, rather than higher quality stuff) of that type as being 12" assault 1 or 2 weapons, with relatively weak s and ap values, say, s3 ap5 as standard....such a weapon would be sufficiently "spiky" that it would count as a cc weapon too...maybe some kind of dual glaive-rifle kinda thing, if you take my meaning?

if anyone is wondering on the imagery, im thinking of the crusaders from the manga hellsing, who had those wierd halberd things when they attacked london?
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
I think the wide beam rule is reasonable if there arn't going to be many things with frag grenades in the army, if loads of stuff will have them then it needs work.

Maybe rather then the unit firing the weapons counting as having Frags when charging, the unit being shot, if charged counts as having frags used against them.

All weapons with this rule must be assault weapons, if a unit is hit by a weapon with the widebeam rule in the shooting phase is charged in the assult phase the charging unit counts as having frag grenades.


This would allow you to use a unit to support another unit who is in charge range.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Meier - The Arm Cannon is meant to be the basic weapon. It's not that powerful so should be ok to go in the Chiro troops.

I do like CRD idea, that the unit is stunned so every unit charging any unit hit by the Wide Beam counts has having Frag Grenades. Anyone have any issues with this?

Now onto my next idea (and at this rate I'll be renaming this Project DoN's VC 40K if no one else comes up with suggestions).

As the Zeus cannon is going to be a rare weapon, we need a decent anti armour weapon. The Disruptor is ok, but it mainly negates rather than destroy. So here is an idea:

Ares Cannon
Named after a long forgotten god of war, this cannon was designed to be one of the most destructive weapons in the Chiro's arsenal. Previous encounters had noted that the tunnelling sonic beams, whilst good at drilling through armour, lacked the explosive capabilities to destroy enemy vehicles out right. The Ares fixes this problem by first firing a sonic beam, after which it fires a primed crystal. The crystal is taken along by the sonic beam and is hopefully delivered into the inner workings of its target. The crystal which was already activated before firing then explodes, generally causing horrific damage.

Range: 36"
Strength: 7
AP: 3
Heavy 1
Focused Beam, Lance

Explosive
Anything that is successfully penetrated will more than likely be outright destroyed by the ensuing sonic explosion
If the Ares cannon penetrates or glances and enemy vehicle the Chiro player may roll two dice on the Vehicle Damage Chart, picking the highest result.
If any other model is wounded by the Ares cannon, and it fails its armour save is applicable roll a D6. On a roll of 6 the model is killed outright, regardless of wounds, saves etc.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
The Ares looks alright to me. Will have to see if the 2d6 and take the highest on the damage result will compensate for it being only S7. Though TBH since the Zeus Cannon is gonna be rare and very powerful, I'd say just make it AP2, then you can do away with it being Focused Beam.

It seems we lack a high rate of fire weapon. Unless this army is designed to intentionally lack this, here's my proposal:

Helios Blaster

Range: 18''
Strength: 5
AP: 5
Assault 5
Pinning, Rending

What I have in mind for this weapon is that it could be carried by a mobile short to medium range firepower unit(definitely not for basic troops though). Perhaps make it available to an infiltrating assassin-type unit, making 'em a bit like an analogue of my beloved Tau Stealth Suits.

And here's another one. Perhaps a supplement to the Helios Blaster, or if you think it overpowered then perhaps as a replacement. This could possibly be a secondary/tertiary weapon for vehicles, like the commonly seen pintle-mounted heavy stubbers or sponson heavy bolters

Icarus Multi-pulse Cannon
This weapon is unique in that it utilizes a form of semi-indirect fire. The cannon launches a large crystal just above the intended target. A timed charge then detonates, causing the crystal to shatter and releasing a deadly rain of shards onto the foe. Each of these fragments causes a small sonic explosion upon impact, but the culmulative effects of many such explosions can literally force infantry to their knees with overlapping shockwaves from all around. However the Icarus Cannon cannot be truly considered an indirect fire weapon as its range cannot compete with most artillery pieces.

Range: 36''
Strength: 4
AP: 5
Heavy 6
Pinning
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
I like the idea for the Helios Blaster though I would either rudce the strength or the number of shots.

For the Icarus Multi-pulse Cannon to be pulse it has to use a blast template, and heavy 6 blast would hurt like hell, so i would reduce the number of shots on this one as well.

Resonance Blaster (sort of going for a meltagun type weapon)

A development of the Sonic blaster, it fires short range set of single frequency waves into a traget shaking it apart. Due to the intensity of the waves the cystals contained can quickly overload if used for too long, potentialy wounding the wielder.

Range 12"
Str 7
Ap 4
Assult 2 (maybe 3)
Lance, Focused beam, gets hot!
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
I totally forgot that Pulse weapons had to be Blast weapons as well. It wasn't what I had in mind. I've edited the Helios and the Icarus, what do you guys think now?

Regarding the Resonance Blaster, we may have one too many Lance weapons. Or it might fit right in just like Blasters in a Dark Eldar army. Can't be sure until the final shape of the weapons list and the army list emerge.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
To be honest I think with the Ares Cannon is fine at AP3, as it is primarily designed as a tank-killer. Plus with all the weapons with the Focused Rule, there should be enough shots ending up with AP2. I was wondering whether it should be put upto S8 though?

Helios Blaster - What's the fluff behind this? Is it a sonic weapon, firing multiple pulses? If so personally I would put it AP4 to show it being more powerful at basic armour penetration that the bog standard Arm Cannon, with the Focused Beam rule. This is then a reasonable special assault weapon designed to be carried by troopers. Throwing out 5 S5 shots at AP4, which could end up at AP2 seems to be potent enough to me. Not sure why the Pinning Rule though?

Icarus Multi-pulse Cannon - This seems to be an idea candidate for the barrage type weapon Meier requested? I would personally put it with the same stats with Heavy 4, Pulse, Blast, Barrage. It would be great as the rain of crystals pins the enemy, but is balanced by its relatively mediocre stats.

Resonance Blaster - I quite like it, and the Lance rule on such a short range weapon is interesting. Not sure about having more than one shot though - if two shots hit, it would mean the tank etc is going to pretty much die. Oh yes, the weapon needs a Greek sounding name.......as does the Arm Cannon and some others.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
Disciple of Nagash said:
Resonance Blaster - I quite like it, and the Lance rule on such a short range weapon is interesting. Not sure about having more than one shot though - if two shots hit, it would mean the tank etc is going to pretty much die. Oh yes, the weapon needs a Greek sounding name.......as does the Arm Cannon and some others.

Have you met a melta gun :tongue:. I don't see it as potent as a meltagun and it also will do less against heavily armoured troops due to the AP being high. It will still need a 5 or 6 to get a penetrating hit vs most enemies armour and you need to get close to the enemy first as well.

If the ares cannon is supposed to be a good anti-armour weapon I would put it up to str 8.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Thanks for the suggestions Evanm7 xd

I have updated the first post with the names.

So any more comments on CRD and Sweeney's ideas?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
The Ares Cannon might be a bit much with all the special rules. Bright/Darklances are Str 8, Lance, and Focused Beam compensates for the slight drop in AP (though it'll still deny saves from almost everything in the game). Then, you are adding Explosive, it might be okay.

Also, I suggest rewording Explosive to may add an extra dice... instead of rolling two dice. You might want to state that if used versus a vehicle with Holo-fields (or something similar) then they cancel each other out. (Trying to roll 3d6 and choosing the result from the 2 highest and the 2 lowest dice makes my head explode... is that what you wanted from the explosive rule :clown: )

I'll look at the other stuff in a couple hours :D

/edit:

The Helios Blaster looks fine to me, pending point costs. It looks in line with Assault Cannon or Cyclic Ion Blaster rules.

Resonance Blaster seems like an odd cross between a Plasma Pistol and a Blaster. Hmm.. either Assault 1 Blast, or Assault 1. I'm not sure about Assault 2... might be okay if point costed correctly and if limited to one per squad.

Icarus Multi-pulse Cannon reminds me of a Whirlwind or maybe an Exorcist (if it could fire Frag missiles). I'm okay with this one actually.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
Well pinning is really kinda gravy on the Helios, so it can be removed if you want. Haven't really thought of its fluff beyond that it should be an evolution of sonic weapon technology. I think it should stay Rending though, as mentioned by Bishop it's meant to be an equivalent of the Assault Cannon

I'm fine with the Icarus becoming a Barrage weapon, though I think its range should be increased to 48'' in such a case to match IG Mortars and Whirlwinds. The Icarus was originally intended to fill the heavy bolter equivalent gap, so we'll need a replacement in such a case. The Helios would not fit in such a role, so we'll have to come out with something else, perhaps something like this:

Athena Cyclic Pulse Cannon

Range: 36''
Strength: 4
AP: 4
Heavy 4
Focused Beam(maybe?)

BTW, how about Kratos Blaster for Resonance Blaster?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
You don't really need to fill all the "gaps" in comparison to the SMurf armoury... we'd be here all day :D

Most armies have a gap somewhere, when compared to the imperial army lists.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
That may be true, but I can't think of any army that lacks a high ROF heavy bolter/heavy stubber equivalent - every army has such a weapon! From Tau to Necron to Ork to Imperial, everybody uses a good ol' machine gun.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, so after the various comments, are these ok to be added to the weapons list:

Ares Cannon
Named after a long forgotten god of war, this cannon was designed to be one of the most destructive weapons in the Chiro's arsenal. Previous encounters had noted that the tunnelling sonic beams, whilst good at drilling through armour, lacked the explosive capabilities to destroy enemy vehicles out right. The Ares fixes this problem by first firing a sonic beam, after which it fires a primed crystal. The crystal is taken along by the sonic beam and is hopefully delivered into the inner workings of its target. The crystal which was already activated before firing then explodes, generally causing horrific damage.

Range: 36"
Strength: 8
AP: 3
Heavy 1
Focused Beam, Lance

Explosive
Anything that is successfully penetrated will more than likely be outright destroyed by the ensuing sonic explosion
If the Ares cannon penetrates or glances and enemy vehicle the Chiro player may roll two dice on the Vehicle Damage Chart, picking the highest result. Against Eldar holo-fields this rule and the holo-fields cancel each other out, thus the Chiro player would roll one dice for Vehicle Damage as per normal.
If any other model is wounded by the Ares cannon, and it fails any save(if applicable) roll a D6. On a roll of 6 the model is killed outright, regardless of wounds, saves etc, as per the Instant Death rule, however this is regardless of the targets toughness.


NB: Bishop - I didn't undertand your rewrite of the explosive ruke. Did you mean that the player rolls 2D6 togther on the Vehicle Damage chart?


Helios Blaster
Needs Fluff

Range: 18''
Strength: 5
AP: 5
Assault 5
Rending

NB: Focused Beam is put in as all Sonic weapons have to have one of the rules. IIRC correctly Rending works on the to hit roll? So in this case this weapon has two chances of scoring an AP2 hit with each shot.


Icarus Multi-pulse Cannon
This weapon is unique in that it utilizes a form of semi-indirect fire. The cannon launches a large crystal just above the intended target. A timed charge then detonates, causing the crystal to shatter and releasing a deadly rain of shards onto the foe. Each of these fragments causes a small sonic explosion upon impact, but the culmulative effects of many such explosions can literally force infantry to their knees with overlapping shockwaves from all around. However the Icarus Cannon cannot be truly considered an indirect fire weapon as its range cannot compete with most artillery pieces.

Range: 48''
Strength: 4
AP: 5
Heavy 6
Pulse, Blast Barrage

NB: I think the range should be kept to 36", jusat because another army has long range does not mean our weapons should match it.


Kratos Blaster
A development of the Sonic blaster, it fires short range set of single frequency waves into a traget shaking it apart. Due to the intensity of the waves the cystals contained can quickly overload if used for too long, potentialy wounding the wielder.

Range 12"
Str 7
Ap 4
Assault 2
Lance, Focused beam, gets hot!


Athena Cyclic Pulse Cannon
needs Fluff

Range: 36''
Strength: 4
AP: 4
Heavy 4
Focused Beam
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
My concern with the Ares cannon was simply an issue of clarification. The interaction between something like a holo-field could be confusing. I'd play this as either: a)roll 3d6 and then drop the highest (holo-field) and drop the lowest (explosive). b) they cancel each other out, and just do a standard vehicle damage roll.

On the Helios blaster.. rending on the hit and the wound roll might be too much given the high rate of fire.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
DoN, I think you are misrepresenting/misintepreting what I said regarding the Icarus' range. What I meant was that the standard for all light barrage weapons in 40k is R48'', as seen from the IG Mortar and SMurf Whirlwind, so why not the Icarus? BTW if it's going to be a Barrage weapon then I think its ROF should be lowered to Heavy 4 or 5, 6 is a bit much,

Regarding the Helios, Rending on the to-hit roll is 4th ed. It has been changed to work on the to-wound roll in 5th, making Focused Beam on the Helios redundant. I would agree with Bishop that it would be too powerful if you could Rend on both the to-hit and to-wound rolls, but this is not the case currently, and shouldn't be either.

Regarding the Ares Cannon, I think the Explosive rule needs to be reworded slightly as such:

If the Ares cannon penetrates or glances and enemy vehicle the Chiro player may roll two dice on the Vehicle Damage Chart, picking the highest result. Against Eldar holo-fields this rule and the holo-fields cancel each other out, thus the Chiro player would roll one dice for Vehicle Damage as per normal.
If any other model is wounded by the Ares cannon, and it fails any save(if applicable) roll a D6. On a roll of 6 the model is killed outright, regardless of wounds, saves etc.

-This clarifies the holo-field issue as mentioned by Bishop. I opted for the simplest solution here(cancels each other out)
-Reworked the wording regarding non-vehicle models. The way it was worded previously, it only works against 2+ armor save models since the opponent specifically has to fail an armor save and the Ares is AP3(you cannot fail a save you do not get in the first place). I changed it so that it would work if a save of any sort is failed. Unless this actually was the intention?

@Sanai: Perhaps, but we'll have to see how the weapons will be distributed as well.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Oh, I knew I missed something, just couldn't remember what.

The "explosive" kills a model outright should be worded to follow the normal Instant Death rules. (ie. models which are immune to ID should also be immune to "explosive").
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, I have amended my post - how do they look now?

@ Sanai - it looks shooty as all we are discussing is weapons. However they will be limited / distributed in such a way as not to create a shooty army.

Any ideas for CC weapons?
 

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