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Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok then time to get working on some of the rules.

For those of you who don’t know, ideas are discussed, and when the majority agree, this first post is updated with the agreed concept(s).

So this thread is to start looking at basic weapons, because if we don’t have these then it will be difficult to design the units that use them. When putting forward ideas, please try and give as much detail as possible, what use you see them for etc.

So here are my ideas:

Firstly – generic weapon rules. These are special rules that relate to sonic weaponry, and all sonic weaponry will be one of these types:

Focused Beam
The advanced technology of the Chiro have managed to focus the powerful sonic weapons into a much tighter confinement beam. This focused shot acts like a drill when it comes into contact with a solid substance, causing vibrations at a molecular level which breaks bonds apart, thus being extremely effective at penetrating armour. However the beam can start to disperse over long distances, resulting in loss of efficiency
All weapons with this rule count as having AP2 when a roll of 6 is made to wound.

Wide Beam
The original weapons created by the Cythors were primitive, and this could only create a short range concussive blast. Nonetheless the power of the weapon is potent enough to disorientate their foe, leaving them vulnerable to assaults. Such was the effectiveness of this in close combat, that an adaptation was produced for various Chiro weapons
All weapons with this rule must be assault weapons, and if used prior to charging, the unit counts as having frag grenades when they charge.

Pulse
These weapons are generally more explosive in nature, sending out a shockwave over a certain area. The result can cause disorientation and nausea, as well being very disconcerting for the enemy.
All weapons with this rule must be blast template weapons. Weapons with this rule will have the Pinning rule, though the affected unit suffers -1 to their Ld to see if they are affected.




Ok, now onto the weapons:

Selene Arm Cannon
This weapon is the most basic weapon developed by the Chiro. The weapons host has their left arm surgically removed and the weapon grafted in its place. Instead of one crystal, a circular array of smaller crystals produces a focused sonic pulse when stimulated by the weapons nanobots. After firing the nanobots then need to recharge momentarily in the hosts bloodstream before firing again, meaning the weapon has limited firing speed. The main benefit of his weapon is that the host does not have to be entirely infected with nanobots to operate, meaning it can be grafted onto humans.

Range: 24"
Strength: 3
AP: 5
Assault
Focused Beam




Bacchus Arm Cannon
This variation is a marked improvement over the original, being much more adaptable, however with a notable difference that it is more integrated into the hosts body. It has much more complex parts, requiring that the host have a higher saturation of nanobots in the hosts body.
The weapon may fire in Mode A or B, chosen before firing. If a unit is using the weapons, the must all pick the same mode.

Mode A ......................Mode B
Range: 24...................Range: 12
Strength: 3.................Strength: 4
AP: 4.........................AP: 5
Rapid Fire...................Assault 1
Focused Beam.........Wide beam




Hades Disruptor
Perhaps one of the most unusual weapons produced by the Chiro, it was actually developed during their first civil war. With nano-shielding it became increasingly hard to effectively use sonic weapons against one another, and thus a weapon was designed to negate this. It works much like a standard focused sonic weapon on a much larger scale, however it fires a sustained pulse. When this comes into contact with any kind of energy field, it breaks it down and transfers it back on a inverse pulse, effectively “sucking” the energy from the target. This energy is then used to recharge the weapon for its next shot. Heavy and cumbersome, this weapon is nonetheless extremely effective against any energy shielding and machines.

Range: 36”
Strength: N/A
AP: (N/A)
Heavy 1

Any unit that is hit by this weapon must role for 1D6 for any of the following (rolling per group, not item):

- Any psychic equipment (ie. Force Weapons, Psychic Hood, etc)
- Any power weapons (excluding psychic equipment)
- Any invul saves (excluding psychic equipment)

On a 4+ those items cease to function until the start of the next Chiro turn. Any weapons simply count as normal hand weapons. Units that are in cover, or named special items are harder to drain, as such any successful rolls on these units / items must be re-rolled (though a dice can only be re-rolled once).

If a vehicle is hit, roll 1D6 and use the following table:

1 – The beam fails to successfully drain an effective amount of energy - No effect
2-3 The beam manages to partially drain the enemy Immobilised or may not fire weapons until the start of the next Chiro turn (owning players turn).
4-5 The beam manages to fully drain the enemy, rendering them defencelessImmobilised and may not fire any weapons until the start of the next Chiro turn
6- Overload! The drain has shorted many of the vehicles systems, resulting in damage. However it is possible the disruptor has drained too much… Same result as 4-5, however in addition also roll on the Vehicle Damage table. If a 6 is rolled on the table, in addition to the Vehicle being destroyed, the feedback destroys the Disruptor, instantly killing its bearer with no saves allowed.

NB: In the case of skimmers they are not destroyed if immobilised on results 2-5. It is assumed their anti-grav field simply fluctuates meaning then can’t move, but they don’t crash.




Poseidon Launcher
This weapon was designed to be anti-infantry, subduing large numbers of unarmoured foes with ease. It works into two parts. The launcher is basically a tube with a crystal that when activated fires a capsule. The long firing chamber means the weapon has great range, although for stability the weapon requires to be fired when stationary. Once the capsule hits its target, the outer casing breaks apart, causing the now exposed nanobots to activate. Rather than just firing the crystal that was also in the capsule, they overload and destroy themselves in the process, causing an equally catastrophic reaction in the crystal. The ensuing sonic explosion is massive, though somewhat lack in armour penetration

Range: 48”
Strength: 6
AP: 5
Heavy 1
Large Blast
Pulse




Zeus Cannon
The pinnacle of Chiro technology, this weapon is the most powerful non-titan weapon at their disposal. A specially cut crystal the size of a man is activated producing a massive sonic shockwave. This wave is then directed into a shield sphere which resonates at a frequency found to increase the power of the pulse. This has an exponential effect, cause the blast to build up to cataclysmic proportions. Just before it overloads the containment shield it is then released upon a focusing chamber that tightens the blast into a devastating beam.

Range: 48"
S: 9
AP: 3
Heavy 1, Blast, Lance
Focused Beam, Pulse

This weapon must be mounted on a chassis that can support three or more weapon / shield nodes (I will discuss this elsewhere), and takes up three full nodes. It also requires a very stable platform, and thus can only be fired providing the chassis as not moved that turn.

When firing this weapon, no role to hit is required. From the weapon place a straight line across the board. Any unit / vehicle on this line is hit by the beam. Using the small blast template with the centre hole place on the line, move the template down the line. Any models touched by the template are counted as being it by the weapon. Once you have confirmed who has been hit, resolve to hit as normal.




Ares Cannon
Named after a long forgotten god of war, this cannon was designed to be one of the most destructive weapons in the Chiro's arsenal. Previous encounters had noted that the tunnelling sonic beams, whilst good at drilling through armour, lacked the explosive capabilities to destroy enemy vehicles out right. The Ares fixes this problem by first firing a sonic beam, after which it fires a primed crystal. The crystal is taken along by the sonic beam and is hopefully delivered into the inner workings of its target. The crystal which was already activated before firing then explodes, generally causing horrific damage.

Range: 36"
Strength: 8
AP: 3
Heavy 1
Focused Beam, Lance

Explosive
Anything that is successfully penetrated will more than likely be outright destroyed by the ensuing sonic explosion
If the Ares cannon penetrates or glances and enemy vehicle the Chiro player may roll two dice on the Vehicle Damage Chart, picking the highest result. Against Eldar holo-fields this rule and the holo-fields cancel each other out, thus the Chiro player would roll one dice for Vehicle Damage as per normal.
If any other model is wounded by the Ares cannon, and it fails any save(if applicable) roll a D6. On a roll of 6 the model is killed outright, regardless of wounds, saves etc, as per the Instant Death rule, however this is regardless of the targets toughness.




Helios Blaster
Needs Fluff

Range: 18''
Strength: 5
AP: 5
Assault 5
Rending




Icarus Multi-pulse Cannon
This weapon is unique in that it utilizes a form of semi-indirect fire. The cannon launches a large crystal just above the intended target. A timed charge then detonates, causing the crystal to shatter and releasing a deadly rain of shards onto the foe. Each of these fragments causes a small sonic explosion upon impact, but the culmulative effects of many such explosions can literally force infantry to their knees with overlapping shockwaves from all around. However the Icarus Cannon cannot be truly considered an indirect fire weapon as its range cannot compete with most artillery pieces.

Range: 48''
Strength: 4
AP: 5
Heavy 6
Pulse, Blast Barrage




Kratos Blaster
A development of the Sonic blaster, it fires short range set of single frequency waves into a traget shaking it apart. Due to the intensity of the waves the cystals contained can quickly overload if used for too long, potentialy wounding the wielder.

Range 12"
Str 7
Ap 4
Assault 2
Lance, Focused beam, gets hot!




Athena Cyclic Pulse Cannon
needs Fluff

Range: 36''
Strength: 4
AP: 4
Heavy 4
Focused Beam




Cythor Sonic Blaster (needs better name xd)
The original weapon from which all the sonic weaponry of the Chiro and Cythors was developed. A crystal in the base of this weapons activates when subjugated to a particular sounds frequency emitted by the Cythors. Though crude in design, the resulting blast in nonetheless extremely potent though of a limited range. As of yet whilst, the Chiro have modified and improved in some ways on this technology, they have not yet managed to achieve the raw power that the Cythor variations have. Whether this is down to the actual frequency emitted by the Cythors is a topic of much debate.

Range: 12"
Strength: 5
AP 6
Assault 2
Wide Beam



So that’s some ideas to start off with – comments & ideas please?

NB: This thread is purely for weapons, no units, vehicles / shielding etc.
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
hmm. i think the "b" type zues cannon should be a seperate upgrade in its own right, and perhaps be assault 2.

since its an assault weapon, and is all about getting cranking up decibels up close and personal, how bout we name it the "bacchus" assault variant? if we actually go with ancient greek/roman names for things, itd be slightly more suitable, since bacchus was the god of sex drugs and rock n'roll. :vampire3:

i dont think the basic arm cannon should possess the rending attribute, rending weapons tend to be special weapons like the assault cannon or genestealer talons, rather than standard sidearm. as such could it be the case that all upgraded sonic weapons have one of the rules you hashed out? itd also make the mode "a" zues gun stand out more, as it is theres nothing to seperate it from the basic gun if we split the modes into different guns.

*ninja edit*

after thinking about the arm cannon, how about we have a pistol equivalent "light" arm cannon? same stats as its big brother with 12 inch range? it wouldnt adversely effect the use of cythor close range weapons, indeed the b type arm cannon could be an upgrade choice to give the unit an extra bit of kick.

*edit ends*

for the launcher, might i suggest that it be a heavy 1 pulse weapon, str 5 ap4, small blast template? with this weaker profile we would have more opportunity to add them to squads, im thinking the upgraded weapons could be up to 4 per unit atm, at least for the zombies, with a caveat im gonna post up in the relevant thread to see what you think of it. the large template is specifically for very heavy weapons (forgotten the name used sorry) like the leman russ battlecannon or the basilisk earthshaker...


*edit part 2*
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
hmm. i think the "b" type zues cannon should be a seperate upgrade in its own right, and perhaps be assault 2.

The idea between the upgrade, would be a weapon that can switch between modes. Whatever these modes are could be variable, but I think having a weapon that could do that would be a great weapon for veterans / elite units

since its an assault weapon, and is all about getting cranking up decibels up close and personal, how bout we name it the "bacchus" assault variant? if we actually go with ancient greek/roman names for things, itd be slightly more suitable, since bacchus was the god of sex drugs and rock n'roll.

Yep, like that idea xd

i dont think the basic arm cannon should possess the rending attribute, rending weapons tend to be special weapons like the assault cannon or genestealer talons, rather than standard sidearm. as such could it be the case that all upgraded sonic weapons have one of the rules you hashed out? itd also make the mode "a" zues gun stand out more, as it is theres nothing to seperate it from the basic gun if we split the modes into different guns.

I would disagree with this. I think it makes the sonic weapons unique, rather than just copies from other armies with different names. I am open to other suggestions to the rules, so for example if you think the rending rule is too strong for a standard weapon, perhaps we can come up with something ourself? So for example maybe a 6 to wound just counts as AP2 rather than auto wounding?

for the launcher, might i suggest that it be a heavy 1 pulse weapon, str 5 ap4, small blast template? with this weaker profile we would have more opportunity to add them to squads, im thinking the upgraded weapons could be up to 4 per unit atm, at least for the zombies, with a caveat im gonna post up in the relevant thread to see what you think of it. the large template is specifically for very heavy weapons (forgotten the name used sorry) like the leman russ battlecannon or the basilisk earthshaker...

Again, I have to entirely disagree. This is just basically copying weapons from other armies and renaming them. I think having a heavy weapon that creates a large blast is unique. If it is too strong, perhaps the strength can be brought down a notch, bit I strongly feel the large template should be kept.
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
Disciple of Nagash said:
I would disagree with this. I think it makes the sonic weapons unique, rather than just copies from other armies with different names. I am open to other suggestions to the rules, so for example if you think the rending rule is too strong for a standard weapon, perhaps we can come up with something ourself? So for example maybe a 6 to wound just counts as AP2 rather than auto wounding?

hmm, i like this. the zues variant could as such, using a more refined crystal, perhaps have a higher AP value then? if a standard mass produced gun has this quality itd make sense the better version will have greater capability. so the zues variant could, for example, be a rapid fire ap3 rending weapon? backstory excuse would be difficulties in acquiring parts of sufficient quality, since they cannot by synthesised?

as to the related issue of switching weapon type; such a weapon would have to be rather expensive and probably limited to chiro hq and elite for balance' sake i think.

Again, I have to entirely disagree. This is just basically copying weapons from other armies and renaming them. I think having a heavy weapon that creates a large blast is unique. If it is too strong, perhaps the strength can be brought down a notch, bit I strongly feel the large template should be kept.

hmmm...

i think if we were to make the launcher type lbt, itd have to have a low strength and high AP to ensure its balanced...so perhaps the launcher could be guess range,heavy-1 (maybe heavy 2?)/ s-2/ ap-5/ barrage? itd change its role from that of actual killing to disruption of enemy movement; i think this would make a good role for a chiro heavy weapon. we need more though; currently we dont have a concept for a heavy anti-armour weapon, or even a standard anti armour weapon for light vehicles atm.

im a bit short on time atm so i cannot currently throw a proper concept for such a weapon together, but perhaps an up-gunned heavy version of the zues gun?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok,

Designed this one at work:

Disruptor
Perhaps one of the most unusual weapons produced by the Chiro, it was actually developed during their first civil war. With nano-shielding it became increasingly hard to effectively use sonic weapons against one another, and thus a weapon was designed to negate this. It works much like a standard focused sonic weapon on a much larger scale, however it fires a sustained pulse. When this comes into contact with any kind of energy field, it breaks it down and transfers it back on a inverse pulse, effectively “sucking” the energy from the target. This energy is then used to recharge the weapon for its next shot. Heavy and cumbersome, this weapon is nonetheless extremely effective against any energy shielding and machines.

Range: 36”
Strength: N/A
AP: (N/A)
Heavy 1

Any unit that is hit by this weapon must role for 1D6 for any of the following (rolling per group, not item):

Power Weapons
Force Weapons
Plasma Based Weapons
Invulnerable Saves

On a 4+ those items cease to function until the start of the next Chiro turn. Any weapons simply count as normal handweapons. If a vehicle is hit, roll 1D6 and use the following table:

1 – The beam fails to successfully drain an effective amount of energy - No effect
2-3 The beam manages to partially drain the enemy Immobilised or may not fire weapons until the start of the next Chiro turn (owning players turn).
4-5 The beam manages to fully drain the enemy, rendering them defencelessImmobilised and may not fire any weapons until the start of the next Chiro turn
6- Overload! The drain has shorted many of the vehicles systems, resulting in damage. However it is possible the disruptor has drained too much… Same result as 4-5, however in addition also roll on the Vehicle Damage table. If a 6 is rolled on the table, in addition to the Vehicle being destroyed, the feedback destroys the Disruptor, instantly killing its bearer with no saves allowed.

NB: In the case of skimmers they are not destroyed if immobilised on results 2-5. It is assumed their anti-grav field simply fluctuates meaning then can’t move, but they don’t crash.
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
I reckon the disruptor should get destroyed more often against anti grav. you are messing with the fields that hold em up remember,
 
For mode B of the Zues/Bacchus arm cannon it should definately be assault 2, its a shotgun type weapon. However I don't think a weapon with no Ap with get much use, rapid fire at close range is just as effective. Perhaps keep the AP at 4?

I like the launcher how DoN first put it: a high strength low AP weapon for disruption, not wholesale slaughter. Let the Disruptor be the anti-armour gun.

As for the disruptor itself, it looks intresting. Although the feedback danger should perhaps be harsher, after all we are talking about a weapon that could leave Assault Terminators/Necron Pharias high and dry, which is rather handy.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
OK, I have renamed the adaptable weapon to the Bacchus Variant. I do see this as a leader / elite type weapon, so perhaps as Marcus suggests it should have a higher AP. I don't think it should be AP4 but AP5 should be ok? Not sure about the assault 2 instead of 1. Anyone else?

I also agree that the Focused Beam should just cause the shot to be AP2 on a roll to wound of 6. Anyone else agree with that.

I'm glad someone else likes the Launcher. Personally I like it as it is I think Meier's idea is valid as a low strength sonic barrage designed to disrupt - perhaps that can be a different weapon?

About the Disruptor, as people have mentioned the feedback should be worse - any suggestions?

So the Zeus (spell it right people xd) should be a more powerful weapon. I don't want it to be a carbon copy of an Assault Cannon though. Considering Zeus is the king of the gods, perhaps this should be the uber weapon we talked about?

Zeus Cannon
The pinnacle of Chiro technology, this weapon is the most powerful non-titan weapon at their disposal. A specially cut crystal the size of a man is activated producing a massive sonic shockwave. This wave is then directed into a shield sphere which resonates at a frequency found to increase the power of the pulse. This has an exponential effect, cause the blast to build up to cataclysmic proportions. Just before it overloads the containment shield it is then released upon a focusing chamber that tightens the blast into a devastating beam.

Range: 48"
S: 9
AP: 3
Heavy 1, Blast, Lance
Focused Beam, Pulse

This weapon must be mounted on a chassis that can support three or more weapon / shield nodes (I will discuss this elsewhere), and takes up three full nodes. It also requires a very stable platform, and thus can only be fired providing the chassis as not moved that turn.

When firing this weapon, no role to hit is required. From the weapon place a straight line across the board. Any unit / vehicle on this line is hit by the beam. Using the small blast template with the centre hole place on the line, move the template down the line. Any models touched by the template are counted as being it by the weapon. Once you have confirmed who has been hit, resolve to hit as normal.
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
im not sure if the zeus cannon should be a blast gun...i think with those stats it would be used for sniping specific characters and single units, and that it having blast in addition might make it too powerful with unlimited range. on the other hand i could see it equipped to a tank as an absolutely epic glass cannon or something....though that ofcourse leads to "oh thats s10/ ap3 you say? zap!" and its gone on turn one...


...perhaps give the vehicle chassis equipped with the weapon "slow and purposful" and heavy shielding to compensate for this possibility or something?

on the other hand that might make it too similar to a monolith....
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, I have made some changes to it.

Firstly I have got rid of the unlimited range, though it still has a high range, and lowered the strength one point (didn't want to usurp railguns in that respect). I also got rid of the +1 to penetrate and in replacement of the lower S and that , given in the Lance as well.

I also put a stipulation in that the cannon can not move in the turn it wishes to fire, making it more difficult to use as it can't move and fire making it a stationary target.

I think that makes it a bit more balancing though of course it will need to have a high points cost.
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
i like that.

i agree with you there, im seeing a vehicle equipped with as being around 250+ points basically...but points values can wait till weve got stuff hashed out properly.
 
I like it, it seems fairly balanced provided its costed acordingly.

As to the disruptor; something that nakes it dangerous to drain to much energy from any source, 3/4 or more of the weapon types above the bearer takes a wound (with no armour saves allowed? Or is this too harsh). That way if you want to snipe termies its riskie as the large amount of power can fry the disruptor.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Arm Cannon
1) Rapid fire and Rending if short range is BAD! One or the other, not both
2) AP4 on a basic weapon is OP... switch this to AP5

Disruptor
I'd generalize the groups a little better:
- Any psychic equipment (ie. Force Weapons, Psychic Hood, etc)
- Any power weapons (excluding psychic equipment)
- Any invul saves (excluding psychic equipment)

"Unique"/named equipment is never affected.

Also add in a note in: Cover Saves are allowed versus a Disruptor. Any unit/model which makes its cover save will suffer: [not sure which one (I guess it mostly depends on the prevelance of this weapon as well as its cost)]

. a) no effect or
. b) roll all effects twice and pick the lowest one

Zeus Cannon
- Str 9, Lance and Blast is WAY too much... all other Lance weapons in the game are Str 8 for a reason

Str 8, lance makes any AV 12 vehicle hits 50/50 chance of doing somthing... those odd shouldn't need to be improved on at all, they are already really good!
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
Okay, heres my idea for a close combat weapon for the Cythor. (used by the fast attack or elite Fiend Squads)

Vibro-Gauntlet
The Vibro gauntlet is a lightweight, armoured gauntlet that is worn by the Cythor (insert unit name here) on their hands. It is lightweight and carefully shaped so as not to destabilise their flight. The gauntlet has a built in, razor sharp blade made of an advanced metal, with an edge that has been nano-carved to make it hair thin and incredibly sharp. Also built in to the gauntlet is a device which sends vibrations across the blade, making it vibrate at a frequency which causes it to cut whatever it touches without the need to actuallly apply force to the blade.
Rules:
either- gives rending attacks (not sure if a Cythors claws could really be sharp enough for rending)
or
power weapon
or
something!

The idea behind this weapon is that even thought Cythor have sharp claws, they are coming up against some pretty serious armour that only the tyranids can overcome with their claws. This weapon is for their assaulty squads to take on power armoured units, vehicle rear armour, etc.

And here is another equipment idea

Sonic Helm
The sonic helm is a composite helmet that can amplify the natural sonic abilities of a Cythor directly. When the Cythor screeches, it is modified by the helm into a powerful, close range sonic blast. The wearer gets a s3 attack when charging into assault. Any model wounded by this attack may not strike back in that round of combat.
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
i like it as a rending weapon sanai.

as to the helm, i think it could be a pretty awesome tool even without the s3 attack; just nullifying the enemy's attacks for the first round of combat is potentially an awesome weapon for an elite unit.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Bishop said:
Arm Cannon
1) Rapid fire and Rending if short range is BAD! One or the other, not both.
2) AP4 on a basic weapon is OP... switch this to AP5

For fluff I think rending is important. To be honest I didn't to use the rapid fire catergory, but I wasn't sure which one fitted. Basically I wanted the weapon to be able to fire one shot upto 24" regardless of if the bearer moved, and the bearer would not be able to assault if they fired. is there a category for this I missed?

Yeah wasn't too sure on the AP myself, but then I didn't want this to be a bolter / lasgun ripoff. I think if we limit the shots to max one per turn, and also bearing in mind this will be going on low BS troop choices, I think the AP4 would be ok? What do others think?


Disruptor
I'd generalize the groups a little better:
- Any psychic equipment (ie. Force Weapons, Psychic Hood, etc)
- Any power weapons (excluding psychic equipment)
- Any invul saves (excluding psychic equipment)

"Unique"/named equipment is never affected.

Also add in a note in: Cover Saves are allowed versus a Disruptor. Any unit/model which makes its cover save will suffer: [not sure which one (I guess it mostly depends on the prevelance of this weapon as well as its cost)]

. a) no effect or
. b) roll all effects twice and pick the lowest one

Yeah those groups sound ok to me, though why would unique equipment not be effected? If someone is paying out for this weapon I would imagine it would only be far if affects all weapons of that type. For example does the C'tan phase knife not affect named / unique items?

In regards to cover, yes I suppose that there should be some kind of protection. I agree that if in cover the player has to re-roll any successful results.

Zeus Cannon
- Str 9, Lance and Blast is WAY too much... all other Lance weapons in the game are Str 8 for a reason

Str 8, lance makes any AV 12 vehicle hits 50/50 chance of doing somthing... those odd shouldn't need to be improved on at all, they are already really good!

Hmm, I dislike arguments "other Lance weapons in the game..", mainly because I see this as a unique weapon, perhaps its special thing is that it is stronger than all the other lance weapons. Does everyone agree it should be lowered to S8?

Meier Lenk said:
i like it as a rending weapon sanai.
I disagree as a rending weapon. I think as I stated before the Cythor Feinds should have rending attacks as basic, to fit with their fluff. Thaking this way reduces their offensiveness, and with their limited defense they wouldn't be much use.

In stead I can see this as a power weapon. From the description (which is great), it sounds quite are etc. So if we had it as an upgrade option to maybe an elite Cythor unit and / or an option for Cythor characters then they should be ok and not overpowered.

as to the helm, i think it could be a pretty awesome tool even without the s3 attack; just nullifying the enemy's attacks for the first round of combat is potentially an awesome weapon for an elite unit.

I think having it auto stopping the enemy from attacking is OP. There should at least me some test. Something that affects all models that the bearer can attack. Perhaps a Leadership test?
 

Meier Lenk

Black Knight
Aug 29, 2008
320
manchester
leadership check would be standard, and probably the most viable, but i think an initiative check would suite the concept better...

i had thought that the young cythor/troops choice wouldnt have rending?

anyway thinking on a little, how about power claws? it fits the imagery (i think so anyway)..although no save, rending+re-roll to wound might still be overpowered?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
All the normal Cythors would have the Cythor rule which yes includes rending. The young ones which are a troop choice would not have the Cythor rule, so no rending.

I think the above claw having the Power Claws rule would work fine. We can just stipulate that the owner looeses the rending ability as this fits over their natural claws.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
I dislike the AP4, since that negates all armour in the game aside from Power/Term Armour. Multiple shots and rending is bad... it would depend largely on the point costs. But, say a unit of 10 models in rapid fire range would average what... roughly 2 rending wounds per turn. While that doesn't seems too overpowering, it can if you have 4-5 units like that! Basic weapons shouldn't be that powerful.

You could have a custom firing setup

  • Mode A: Range 24" Assault 1
    Mode B: Range 12" Heavy 1, Rending

As for the Str 9, Lance... that would be a 67% chance of "damaging" ANY vehicle... that's simply TOO high, IMO.

The logic for excluding unique items is that draining the power from a generic force weapon is a little different then draining the power from unique items that were created by master artificiers/psykers that are countless millienum (sp?) old. If you really want to effect these items... then they should be allowed a save of some sorts.
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
The thinking of the rending is that rending at the moment is unique to weapons, even the tyranids use genetically engineered scythes and claws to gain rending.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
You know I have just realized one thing. We have been talking about this rending, and earlier in the thread I agreed that the Rending was too much. So the agreement was that any shots with the focused beam rule meant that on a 6 to wound they counted as AP2, so quite a step down from the rending rule. In regards to the AP down to 5. ok as long as we can keep the AP2 on 6 to wound I think that would be ok.

Would you be ok with that then Bishop?

Also is there no way to have a weapon where you can move, fire one shot only, and not assault? Or would it be better just to make them assault 24 now they have reduced stats?

Zeus Cannon: Ok strength down to 8….though can it have an instant death strength of 10? Would that be too much?

Disruptor: I think that name items should be affected by have to be rolled separately. Any successful rolls have to be re-rolled. That sound fair?
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
@Sanai: Actually that's not true. The Assault Cannon is Rending as well, however it is definitely not a basic weapon.

@Bishop: I don't agree with you. FYI, not all Lances are S8. I think you have forgotten about Tyranid Warp Lances which are S10 AP1 AND Lance. The important factor here is availability and cost, since only 1 unit in the Tyranid Codex has Warp Lances. Having the Zeus Cannon be S9 AP3 Lance may not be OP, depending on that

Thus, the way I see it we have 2 options. One is to keep it as S9 AP3 Blast, Lance and control its availability and cost, as I have already mentioned. The other, simpler option is to make it S9 AP1 Blast and remove the Lance rule instead
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Oct 30, 2009
5,193
Behind Darvy
@Sweeney Todd thats what I meant. My point is no faction should have rending merely as a basic rule. Its a pretty powerful ability.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
@DoN - That sounds fine for basic weapon... let's see the write-up for it. The only weapon catregories which prevent assault are Rapid Fire and Heavy... neither of those fit the bill. Assault with the lesser profile should be fine.

@S.Todd - Sorry, I'm not up to speed on new 'nid codex. I agree that if the heavy weapon is very limited that a higher Str would be okay. If the weapon is easily available then it should conform to the "more standard profile" of Str 8 and Lance. Or Str 9, Blast... or whichever. Like anything else, its power level has to depend on availabilty and cost.

@DoN - Yeah, something like that for uniques... they should be harder to drain, since they are more powerful.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok I have amended the first post with all the ideas. If you could all read and feedback. Am I the only one thinking up ideas here - anyone else care to help? ;)

In regards to the Zeus Cannon - I should note I had imagined this to be the heaviest and rarest non-titan weapon the Chiro have. As such they will be very rare, expensive and will have to be a mounted on a vehicle chassis that due to the power drain will not be able to support anything else.

I think with those limits the increased S with Lance is ok.
 

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