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Which new Mortarch do you choose?

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#51
Shes not a one trick pony - as I said being a loremaster in shadow is a big deal if you're playing end times magic. Shes quite the beast of a caster being able to fly to where she needs to be and blast with magic. Unfortunately this leaves her quite vulnerable having basically no saves whatsoever.

Against shooting lists you have to hope for first turn and fly somewhere you aren't goign to die before being able to engage. At least she has that opportunity; Arkhan and Mannfred aren't as safe in combat so they are going to be vulnerable all day long and you'll likely watch them die more often than not. At least Mannfred can heal himself and has 5+; Arkhan is just waiting to be blown off the table. Arkhan might be 1/3 less costly than Nagash, but Nagash can take twice as many wounds, likely much more with the ability to heal himself.

In combat, she will win. That's a one hell of a nice trick for your pony. The only way she wont win is maybe against a 3++ re-rolling cheese ward. Still, you have plenty of time to go to town on vamp spells and negate any wounds that made it through to her so at the very least shell pin down some unkillable super lord for the whole game while blasting some of the worst hexes around unhindered.

I'm wondering how long the end times magic will last for. Its fun now but there too many unanswered questions like, should mages really be getting loremaster in 2+ lores at once? How does a power scroll even work now? If Nef is even still around in 9th edition, she may lose a lot of her potency as she is now. But with the end times in full swing, its a great time to get her on the table and freak out your opponents with her surprisingly nightmarish magic and unstoppable melee.
Most people don't want to play end time magic and no current tournaments are allowing it. So any benefits assumed through abusing those shitty rules won't really help your argument. I personally think she lacks combat ability compared to her stickiness.
 
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
360
#52
This is only due to GW failure to organize tournaments and just leave them up to the whims of the organizers. Everyone has their "house rules" and when you go to a tournament, your simply playing the organizers "house rules". I'm sure somewhere they are doing End Times Tournaments. It's only been a few weeks since End Times Magic started. I personally find the end times magic to be fun as hell. I don't think the rules are refined enough to be ready for tournaments, but I would like them to go more in this direction for 9th edition.

The new magic is part of the end times, same as the new army lists, rules and units. Technically you have to play end times magic if you avoid your army crumbling with the loss of your vampire general, or to use units like the Mortarchs, for which this thread is in regards to.

Regardless you can make your own house rules if you like. I'm happy to play either way, provided I know what to expect beforehand. I know some people who think the magic phase is now fun for the first time.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,162
#53
Actual, ETM is only a requirement when playing with or against the elven legion armies, and even then it's rather uncommon to see ime. Some people have enjoyed it, but most of the reactions I've come across, including my own, have been very negative. And even if you're using ETM, Nef is still on the more lackluster end of the mortarch scale. Even if you want a shadow caster, vlad does that, while still pretty significantly buffing whatever unit he joins.
 
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
360
#54
I see, Elven Legons or this book. So they did make it so its like an elf war thing exclusively. Odd, given that with BotWD, Elves have the best defense against the magic phase in general.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
927
#55
I don't think the rules are refined enough to be ready for tournaments, but I would like them to go more in this direction for 9th edition.
This is really the big problem with ET magic. If everyone is just running a basic level 4 then they're cool enough, though I think they're just a little TOO unpredictable still. But when you have edge cases like HE Loremasters (every lore in the book), Slanns (every lore in the book, or loremaster forgetting one spell to learn an entire lore), warlocks (two full lores for 125 points), or other casters that have powerful phases on multiple lores (Nagash, Alarielle, Fateweaver, Teclis, VC Mannfred, etc.) the system starts to break.
 

Seneschal

Liche
True Blood
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
5,524
#56
"The magic of the end times rules must be used instead if the rules from the Warhammer rule book if any of the following conditions apply:

-magic of the end times is listed as a special rule for a scenario.

-if either player is fielding an army chosen using an elven hosts army list from this book

-if either player is using a unit from the new armies and units section of this book

-if either player wants to use the magic of the end times rules instead of the rules for magic in the Warhammer rule book."

-warhammer khaine book 2 page 8
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,162
#57
No, they're not cool if you're just running the basic level four. Several key elements of end times magic - knowing all the spells, recasting, and the d6 limit on casting and dispel dice - are all fundamentally flawed game designs. There really is no salvaging ETM. It isn't a matter of tweaking it a little here or there. And house ruling that dispels prevent recasting doesn't fix it, it just breaks it in different ways. I agree that 6 dicing irresistable fishing on a handful of overpowered spells was a problem in 8th, but ETM is absolutely a treatment far worse than the disease, one that completely fails to address the actual fundamental problem - irresistable force is a bad mechanic, and the miscast table simply does not provide meaningful disincentives to the use of more dice than you think you need to cast a spell. Those are the fundamental problems, and ETM doesn't fix them, it just camouflages the problems by breaking the entire rest of the magic phase around them.
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#60
I really thought about my previous answers to this thread and i have to say, rule wise manny isn't terribly better then our current mannfred, he just traded some casting potential for combat potential, which rounds him out pretty well but doesn't amaze me over count mannfred. In fact this happened with a lot of them.

Arkhan dropped some magic for some fight like manny, but he also dropped a little extra (like his nerfed staff) for the bonuses to undeath. Overall the original is easily better unless you have a tactic involving summoning and Nagash does that so much better. (Granted for VC players hes a new addition to our choices).

Vlad literally traded beloved in death for mortarch of shadow. A change I personally like because getting a rule by sacrificing a character in an army made of characters seemed bad and the mortarch of shadow rule makes any unit vlad is in a solid anvil. For 5 points that is great, but that is my personal opinion, objectively its barely a change (like his points costs so ho hum).

Krell got 2 stat ups and instead of being required to challenge has a situational heal, otherwise no change for a minor price increase, still as bad as his last incarnation. Although I suppose in an anvil GG unit lead by Vlad and a wight king with nightshroud (now krell isn't destroyed by his asl) I suppose he could have a place. I'm not impressed as I've seen most aren't.

Lastly neferata, a completely new addition (been long enough that this is true). But she ends up basically being a kitted vampire lord on a zombie dragon instead of queen of the Lhamians. In that regard if you would run a lord on dragon you may as well take nefe as shes more resistant to cannons with that combined profile. Its a bit sad really, all she needed was her mortarch rule to work all game instead of once and she would really stick out. On a side note, does her staff affect all units hit by an aoe spell? because that seems like it may start adding up quick.

So as far as rules go I am a bit more conflicted, manny still seems best, but I've never found a good instance to field him in a VC army so I'm not sure if I'd take him. Then again I often never find room because I prefer a lord with more damage, new manny might provide that while still giving me the very powerful caster mannfred. Vlad definitely has a place as an anvil in a footslogger army though (with one rule change amazingly) so I can hardly compare which one I find better rule wise and nefe almost makes the blender lord on zombie dragon a viable reality even in the face of cannons, although I may be biased because...

Fluff wise I earlier said Vlad because he just screams Vampire, but truthfully I like the idea of the Lhamian upper class Vampire, the coven throne even happens to be my favorite unit. Discounting the Queen of all that seems wrong and having had a good look at her fluff she has definitely risen in my rankings. Okay so long post but I've been toying with these guys in lists and wanted to share my thoughts!
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Messages
131
#61
I somewhere read that there could be nine mortarchs total, so I'm just not sure yet. Till then, I'll choose Vlad, just because of cannons. And now even Woc could have those damn things.
 
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