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Mannerheim27

Moderator
True Blood
Sep 29, 2009
981
Minnesota
Good evening guys! I’ll be in a fun tourney this coming weekend with a buddy of mine. I’ll be running my WOC army for my first tourney ever and I was wondering if I could get some feedback on this list that my friend helped me develop. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I’m looking to have a bit of fun with the army and kick some rear at the same time. Thanks in advance!

Warriors of Chaos Roster

Chaos Warriors (15#, 315.0 pts)
14 Chaos Warriors of Khorne @ 315.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Champion of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)

Chaos Warriors (15#, 315.0 pts)
14 Chaos Warriors of Khorne @ 315.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Champion of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)

Chaos Warriors (10#, 230.0 pts)
9 Chaos Warriors of Khorne @ 230.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Champion of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)

Chaos Marauders (40#, 330.0 pts)
39 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 330.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Flail; Light Armour; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Chieftan of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Flail; Light Armour; Shield; Frenzy)

Sorcerer Lord (1#, 415.0 pts)
1 Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch @ 415.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Smoke and Mirrors)
1 Armour of Silvered Steel
1 Wand of Jet
1 Potion of Toughness
1 Third Eye of Tzeentch
Lore of Shadow

Exalted Hero (1#, 190.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch @ 190.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Biting Blade
1 Bloodskull Pendant
1 Acid Ichor

Exalted Hero (1#, 200.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Khorne @ 200.0 pts (General; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Chaos Runesword
1 Bloodcurdling Roar


Total Roster Cost: 1995.0

Thanks again for taking the time to review the list. Any and all feedback is appreciated!! I really appreciate people getting me more into the playing aspect of this hobby as I’m generally a painter!

All the best,

Jake
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
Firstly, you suffer from a misconception when it comes to your Sorcerer Lord. If you take any mark, you must use the corresponding Lore. This is non-negotiable unfortunately. So your Sorcerer Lord cannot use Lore of Shadow as he must use Lore of Tzeentch.

That aside, I think you're better off without your unit champions. Champions as well as characters must challenge in a WoC list(this too is non-negotiable), so you are almost guranteed to get forced into bad challenges.

Marauders cannot use shields with flails as the flail is two-handed. And since you are required to use a flail if you have it, that means you will only benefit from the light armor. A mere 6+ armor save is not worth forking out points for, so you may as well dump both the light armor and shield. As protracted combats are a lot more common in 8ed, you could use the spare points to upgrade your flails to great weapons.

A BSB is a no-brainer these days, especially in a list with so many Frenzied units to try and restrain. I'd suggest making your Tzeentch Exalted Hero the BSB, with the 4+ Ward common item for a total of a 3+ Ward and maybe a Charmed Shield. Lack of killing power can be compensated for by equipping him with GW or flail. Speaking of ward saves, the 5+ ward save item would be good on your Sorcerer Lord, if only to protect against miscasts. I can't remember what the Wand of jet does so I won't comment on it, but the Potion of Toughness on your Sorc Lord is pointless as you shouldn't even be in the situation to use it.
 

Mannerheim27

Moderator
True Blood
Sep 29, 2009
981
Minnesota
Thanks for the feedback. Yup, I'm a bit green to the playing side, but boy can I blend paint like there's no tomorrow!

I'm going to re-write this list today after I'm off of work. I think I may mix it up a bit and make Tzeentch my main god so that I get the ward save as well. I'm not sure which I want more: survivability or sheer killing...

Jake
 

logan054

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Aug 16, 2007
2,523
Ipswich
Redarmy27 said:
Chaos Warriors (15#, 315.0 pts)
14 Chaos Warriors of Khorne @ 315.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Champion of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)

Chaos Warriors (15#, 315.0 pts)
14 Chaos Warriors of Khorne @ 315.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Champion of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)

Chaos Warriors (10#, 230.0 pts)
9 Chaos Warriors of Khorne @ 230.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Champion of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)


Main problem I see here is that these units would have been fine in 7th but 8th you do really need bigger units, I wouldnt bother with that unit of 10, juts take two units of 18.

Chaos Marauders (40#, 330.0 pts)
39 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 330.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Flail; Light Armour; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Chieftan of Khorne (Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Flail; Light Armour; Shield; Frenzy)

You have your chaos warriors all with strength 5, do you really need this unit as well? maybe give this guys MoT and HW+SH?


Sorcerer Lord (1#, 415.0 pts)
1 Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch @ 415.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Smoke and Mirrors)
1 Armour of Silvered Steel
1 Wand of Jet
1 Potion of Toughness
1 Third Eye of Tzeentch
Lore of Shadow [/quote]

Far to many points in characters, I think your trying to place WoC like VC, you don need a Lord and 2 heroes, 800pts in heroes is never going to win you a game, hell you don't even need a lvl4, a lvl2 with MoT is more than enough, give him talismans of preservation and you are sorted. Hell a lvl2 with a enchanted shield and talismans of endurance is usually pretty hard to kill, 2+ save, 4+ wardsave.

Exalted Hero (1#, 190.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch @ 190.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Biting Blade
1 Bloodskull Pendant
1 Acid Ichor

Exalted Hero (1#, 200.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Khorne @ 200.0 pts (General; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Frenzy)
1 Chaos Runesword
1 Bloodcurdling Roar

How about a exalted with MoT, great weapon and talismans of preservation, 4+ save, 3+ wardsave, 4 WS7 S7 attacks. If I had things like trolls then I would make him a BSB


Other things, chaos hounds! marauder horsemen, chaos knights, trolls, ogres, hellcannons?

The main problem I see with your list is that the only thing in the army that will force me to engage is you wizard who is in a rather easy to kill unit. Things like hellcannons make people want to engage your in combat simply because of the damage it can cause. I have seen people send things like dragon princes up against just so it dosn't get to many chances to fire (and it can actually beat these in combat!).


Sweeney Todd said:
That aside, I think you're better off without your unit champions. Champions as well as characters must challenge in a WoC list(this too is non-negotiable), so you are almost guranteed to get forced into bad challenges.

Unit champions have a use in the WoC list, you use them to issue challenges instead of you characters so that you hero is not constantly fighting unit champions, it also very handy when charged by heroes on dragons, rather than lose a couple of ranks of models you lose a single models which gives you chance to counter charge next turn with something that can actually kill the dragon.

A BSB is a no-brainer these days, especially in a list with so many Frenzied units to try and restrain. I'd suggest making your Tzeentch Exalted Hero the BSB, with the 4+ Ward common item for a total of a 3+ Ward and maybe a Charmed Shield. Lack of killing power can be compensated for by equipping him with GW or flail.

BSB's really depend on the army, they are great in some and a lot of points in others when it comes to WoC, while I agree as this list stands it would be very useful in most WoC armies the main concern of panic from shooting are addressed with the army wide special rule, frenzy itself can be negated with things like hounds for a turn which are also your walking cover and can be your warmachine hunters, if you have a 3+ wardsave then you don't need a charmed shield, I would be more inclined to take a great weapon for the strength of 7 every turn.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
logan054 said:
Regardless of what some people will tell you a BSB is not all that needed for a WoC army, we can reroll panic tests, can have a whole army immune to fear and terror and east access to leadership 9 thanks to that common magic banner. Now onto the list.

The BSB provides one thing you cannot replicate otherwise: the ability to re-roll Ld tests of any sort, including failed restraint tests on your Frenzied units to prevent them from charging off uncontrollably. And conveniently enough, Frenzy is one of the primary methods with which WoC negates their vulnerability to psychology, meaning to say it's likely that many of your units will be Frenzied if your army packs that touted immunity to panic, fear and terror. You can also re-roll a failed Swift Reform test.

While it is not as critical for WoC as some other armies, it is still a very useful tool.
 

logan054

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Aug 16, 2007
2,523
Ipswich
Sweeney Todd said:
The BSB provides one thing you cannot replicate otherwise: the ability to re-roll Ld tests of any sort, including failed restraint tests on your Frenzied units to prevent them from charging off uncontrollably. And conveniently enough, Frenzy is one of the primary methods with which WoC negates their vulnerability to psychology, meaning to say it's likely that many of your units will be Frenzied if your army packs that touted immunity to panic, fear and terror. You can also re-roll a failed Swift Reform test.

While it is not as critical for WoC as some other armies, it is still a very useful tool.

Its also a 200pts character which you could use to buy something else with, hell you could nearly buy a hellcannon for the same price, the hellcannon does far more for the army than any reroll, it gives you opponent a reason to engage you. Remember that WoC are leadership 8 and 7, you can very easily increase this to 9 just by giving you generals units a 15pts banner.

How often do frenzied units actually go charging across the table like idiots? I think I have had it happen once and I still made the charge, as long as its not on the first turn it isn't such a big issue.

I am not saying its not a useful tool but considering the price of things like warriors, knights, trolls and characters you have to be very economical on how you choose a army. I have used a BSB in several games and I found I could have spent the points better, I know have a hellcannon ;)



On this list itself, why exactly do Chaos warriors with MoK and halberds need a hero with them, in a unit of 6x3 you are pumping out 24 strength 5 attacks at I5, the unit champion is actually more than able to take on most hero level characters, Tzeentch unit champions are pretty damn rock with HW+SH, WS5, S4, T4, I5, A3, 3+ save, 5+ wardsave, get yourself a warshrine and anything like +1S, +1S, +1T is really going to boost that unit.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
logan054 said:
Sweeney Todd said:
The BSB provides one thing you cannot replicate otherwise: the ability to re-roll Ld tests of any sort, including failed restraint tests on your Frenzied units to prevent them from charging off uncontrollably. And conveniently enough, Frenzy is one of the primary methods with which WoC negates their vulnerability to psychology, meaning to say it's likely that many of your units will be Frenzied if your army packs that touted immunity to panic, fear and terror. You can also re-roll a failed Swift Reform test.

While it is not as critical for WoC as some other armies, it is still a very useful tool.

Its also a 200pts character which you could use to buy something else with, hell you could nearly buy a hellcannon for the same price, the hellcannon does far more for the army than any reroll, it gives you opponent a reason to engage you. Remember that WoC are leadership 8 and 7, you can very easily increase this to 9 just by giving you generals units a 15pts banner.

How often do frenzied units actually go charging across the table like idiots? I think I have had it happen once and I still made the charge, as long as its not on the first turn it isn't such a big issue.

I am not saying its not a useful tool but considering the price of things like warriors, knights, trolls and characters you have to be very economical on how you choose a army. I have used a BSB in several games and I found I could have spent the points better, I know have a hellcannon ;)



On this list itself, why exactly do Chaos warriors with MoK and halberds need a hero with them, in a unit of 6x3 you are pumping out 24 strength 5 attacks at I5, the unit champion is actually more than able to take on most hero level characters, Tzeentch unit champions are pretty damn rock with HW+SH, WS5, S4, T4, I5, A3, 3+ save, 5+ wardsave, get yourself a warshrine and anything like +1S, +1S, +1T is really going to boost that unit.

*snort* A Hellcannon. It's simply far too expensive for what it does. In every game I or anyone else in my LGS has involving any Hellcannons, they always prove to be liabilities. Always. A Hellcannon is an advantage for the other player, not you, because then he knows you've wasted over 200 points.

And it sounds like your opponents have never punished you for Frenzy before. No matter how rock hard Chaos Warriors are, they are not invincible. There is still such a thing as an 'undesirable matchup' for them. There are things even scarier than them out there...cue 25 Swordmasters or White Lions. Or a pair of Stanks. Frenzy's downside is not as extreme as back in 7ed but is potentially lethal nonetheless.
 

logan054

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Aug 16, 2007
2,523
Ipswich
Sweeney Todd said:
*snort* A Hellcannon. It's simply far too expensive for what it does. In every game I or anyone else in my LGS has involving any Hellcannons, they always prove to be liabilities. Always. A Hellcannon is an advantage for the other player, not you, because then he knows you've wasted over 200 points.

So you think M6 WS4 S5 T6 W5 A5, terror causing and unbreakable monster is not worth 205pts? on top of this is a rock lobber that if it hist causes panic tests at -1? They certainly do not always prove to be a liability at all, I guess I don't just look at as a rock lobber. I tend to find 5 S5 attacks + D6 stomp attacks is rather nice.

Its a big monster that people seem to focus on, it can certainly perform the same job as a Giant (tarpit) for less points and his harder to shift due to 4+ save and monster and handler rules.

If you have used it as a rock lobber it only needs to hit once and it can usually tale a unit out of the game, if against small bases your looking at a max of 21 models, it really doesn't matter what/who you are. This really depends on the army, the -1 panic rule is very nasty when used in conjunction with lore of death or even Tzeentch.

And it sounds like your opponents have never punished you for Frenzy before. No matter how rock hard Chaos Warriors are, they are not invincible. There is still such a thing as an 'undesirable matchup' for them. There are things even scarier than them out there...cue 25 Swordmasters or White Lions. Or a pair of Stanks. Frenzy's downside is not as extreme as back in 7ed but is potentially lethal nonetheless.

I have been punished in the past, I wouldn't use a whole army of chaos warriors just with frenzy, I would take a balanced list ;) I don't believe at any point I have said chaos warriors are invincible (not sure how you came up with this rubbish). The fact of the matter is a unit like Chaos warriors do not need combat characters like many other units, this is the units like SM ;) . SM certainly are a problem, I would personally blast those to bits with magic and shooting, WL are not a nice match up but they lack the attacks and higher WS of SM so while you will take looses you should still be able to win that match up. A pair of Stanks would certainly be something awful to come across but I really don't think SM or WL would like to try their luck either. I find it funny when people take lore of metal and stanks as I tend to borrow the lore of metal (gotta love 3rd eye of Tzeentch), is either that, pit of shades or gateway

Back in 7th we didn't have BSB's to reroll berserk rage tests, all we had was chaos hounds which is something that was reasonably effective at screening frenzied units.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
logan054 said:
Sweeney Todd said:
*snort* A Hellcannon. It's simply far too expensive for what it does. In every game I or anyone else in my LGS has involving any Hellcannons, they always prove to be liabilities. Always. A Hellcannon is an advantage for the other player, not you, because then he knows you've wasted over 200 points.

So you think M6 WS4 S5 T6 W5 A5, terror causing and unbreakable monster is not worth 205pts? on top of this is a rock lobber that if it hist causes panic tests at -1? They certainly do not always prove to be a liability at all, I guess I don't just look at as a rock lobber. I tend to find 5 S5 attacks + D6 stomp attacks is rather nice.

Its a big monster that people seem to focus on, it can certainly perform the same job as a Giant (tarpit) for less points and his harder to shift due to 4+ save and monster and handler rules.

If you have used it as a rock lobber it only needs to hit once and it can usually tale a unit out of the game, if against small bases your looking at a max of 21 models, it really doesn't matter what/who you are. This really depends on the army, the -1 panic rule is very nasty when used in conjunction with lore of death or even Tzeentch.

And it sounds like your opponents have never punished you for Frenzy before. No matter how rock hard Chaos Warriors are, they are not invincible. There is still such a thing as an 'undesirable matchup' for them. There are things even scarier than them out there...cue 25 Swordmasters or White Lions. Or a pair of Stanks. Frenzy's downside is not as extreme as back in 7ed but is potentially lethal nonetheless.

I have been punished in the past, I wouldn't use a whole army of chaos warriors just with frenzy, I would take a balanced list ;) I don't believe at any point I have said chaos warriors are invincible (not sure how you came up with this rubbish). The fact of the matter is a unit like Chaos warriors do not need combat characters like many other units, this is the units like SM ;) . SM certainly are a problem, I would personally blast those to bits with magic and shooting, WL are not a nice match up but they lack the attacks and higher WS of SM so while you will take looses you should still be able to win that match up. A pair of Stanks would certainly be something awful to come across but I really don't think SM or WL would like to try their luck either. I find it funny when people take lore of metal and stanks as I tend to borrow the lore of metal (gotta love 3rd eye of Tzeentch), is either that, pit of shades or gateway

Back in 7th we didn't have BSB's to reroll berserk rage tests, all we had was chaos hounds which is something that was reasonably effective at screening frenzied units.

I and my buddies have both tested and/or faced off against Hellcannon(s) before coming to the conclusion of them being useless. To use my own personal experience, the last time I faced Hellcannons 2 of them were fielded. The only thing they did was kill 5 ghouls and 1 chaos warrior. Immediately after the game my opponent looked at the two of them and said something like 'WTF was I thinking, fielding them?!' The trouble with the Hellcannon is that you pay for its dual role capability but it can never do both at once, in fact it's very difficult to get it to do both in the same game. It used to be decent or good as a CC tarpit but the changes to close combat and the meta have overall weakened rather than strengthened their ability to do this.

As for being a rock lobber, yes it is now a better than usual rock lobber due to its higher S value. But then you have to pass an Ld test every turn or it runs forward uncontrollably(this is where the previously mentioned BSB comes in) and abandons its post and/or gets in your way. And also, it can do some damage...if it hits. Other armies can get around the issue of accuracy through taking multiples(I mean like 3 or more), but we can't do this. And no, in my experience rock lobbers don't take units out of the game at one shot,even with S5, largely due to previously mentioned accuracy issues. It usually requires an alpha strike by multiple stone throwers to achieve this, and WoC aren't so good at that.

I know you never said Chaos Warriors were invincible, but it seemed to be the direction you were going in. Frenzy might be less of an issue to you because you have a more even mix of MoK to other marks. However, this is not your list we're discussing here. In the OP's list, which is the subject, every single one of his infantry blocks is Frenzied. So the downside is a lot more apparent cos you're taking 4 restraint tests a turn, not 1 or 2. Yes, Hounds were a good method for dealing with Frenzy's drawbacks back in 7ed. Trouble is, they never last past turn 2.

I do agree with you that WoC need combat characters a lot less than other armies. However, I don't agree that MoK Chaos Warriors can hold against either Swordmasters or White Lions. I'll crunch some numbers to back my opinion:

First matchup: 15 Khorne Chaos Warriors with halberd and shield vs 17 White Lions. Both have FC.

I assume the Warriors are in ranks of 6. The HE guy, if he's smart, will react by placing his WL in ranks of 9, as this will both maximize his killing power and reduce vulnerability to blast templates(ie: Hellcannon)

WL go first(damn pesky elves and their global ASF), with 18 attacks = 13.5 hits = 11.25 unsavable wounds. With your 4 remaining Warriors, that's 13 attacks = 6.5 hits = 5.416 unsavable wounds. Warriors lose badly and if they don't break and run, they get slaughtered next turn. Game over.

Second matchup: 15 Khorne Chaos Warriors with halberd and shield vs 17 Swordmasters. Both have FC.

Same things, ranks of 6 vs ranks of 9. SM go first, with 27 attacks = 24 hits = 16 wounds = 13.3333 kills after applying S5 modifier to armor save. 2 Warriors strike back, 7 attacks = 3.5 hits = 2.916 wounds. Warriors get owned even more badly here.
 

logan054

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Aug 16, 2007
2,523
Ipswich
Sweeney Todd said:
I and my buddies have both tested and/or faced off against Hellcannon(s) before coming to the conclusion of them being useless. To use my own personal experience, the last time I faced Hellcannons 2 of them were fielded. The only thing they did was kill 5 ghouls and 1 chaos warrior. Immediately after the game my opponent looked at the two of them and said something like 'WTF was I thinking, fielding them?!' The trouble with the Hellcannon is that you pay for its dual role capability but it can never do both at once, in fact it's very difficult to get it to do both in the same game. It used to be decent or good as a CC tarpit but the changes to close combat and the meta have overall weakened rather than strengthened their ability to do this.

How many times have you and your friends actually tried a hellcannon? I have used mine about at least 12 times since I bought it a few months ago and its been fine for me. Has it done something every single game? no! do I have other units in my army that don't always perform? sure, my chaos hounds don't always do what I want, I have marauders flee of the table, chaos knights fail all their armour saves, its part of the game that is warhammer, its part skill and part luck. My hellcannon usually hits once a game (and I mean direct hit), when it hits unless I am unlucky or they have something like MoT and blastered standard it usually kills a lot. It doesn't need to hit every turn either. Part of the thing with a hellcannon is its big and people overact to it, this can be simply because it hit a person wizard bunker on turn one and fled of t for getting it perform both a combat monster roll and a rock lobber it really depends on the game, all it really takes is for someone to chase a unit to close and your in, yes it has been weakened this edition like every single monster, unlike the others it does have T6 and it does have armour and it has gain the crew jumping in the way save. Is it amazing? no, its certainly a option that is going to earn its points back far more easily than a hero with a BSB.

I know you never said Chaos Warriors were invincible, but it seemed to be the direction you were going in. Frenzy might be less of an issue to you because you have a more even mix of MoK to other marks. However, this is not your list we're discussing here. In the OP's list, which is the subject, every single one of his infantry blocks is Frenzied. So the downside is a lot more apparent cos you're taking 4 restraint tests a turn, not 1 or 2. Yes, Hounds were a good method for dealing with Frenzy's drawbacks back in 7ed. Trouble is, they never last past turn 2.

If you notice I was suggestion he takes things other than Khorne warriors ;) I was telling him to take larger units.

I do agree with you that WoC need combat characters a lot less than other armies. However, I don't agree that MoK Chaos Warriors can hold against either Swordmasters or White Lions. I'll crunch some numbers to back my opinion:

Seriously what are you smoking? what part of blast SM with magic implies I think Khorne warriors are a match for SM? I never even mentioned Khorne warriors, also if you notice I said WL without running any numbers was not a nice match! I said its not as nasty as SM, which it isn't, I am also saying SM are like CW in the sense they can generate enough kill not to need a character! Seriously, you playing a 1 man Chinese whispers? perhaps I wasn't clear because I rushed my post before I went out to play some warhammer.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on the Hellcannon.

logan054 said:
Seriously what are you smoking? what part of blast SM with magic implies I think Khorne warriors are a match for SM? I never even mentioned Khorne warriors, also if you notice I said WL without running any numbers was not a nice match! I said its not as nasty as SM, which it isn't, I am also saying SM are like CW in the sense they can generate enough kill not to need a character! Seriously, you playing a 1 man Chinese whispers? perhaps I wasn't clear because I rushed my post before I went out to play some warhammer.

I was disagreeing with the following statement of yours:

logan054 said:
WL are not a nice match up but they lack the attacks and higher WS of SM so while you will take looses you should still be able to win that match up.

I didn't think the warriors would be able to hold at all. That was why I pulled out the math.
 

Mannerheim27

Moderator
True Blood
Sep 29, 2009
981
Minnesota
Alright, thanks for the feedback guys, but I’ve gone back a bit and tried to do some re-tooling. This new result may not be perfect, but it does have a bit of flexibility to it.

I forgot to mention that the units I am placing in my army are actually ones that I own. I’m using that I have. I have a total of 70 warriors, 40 marauders, 20 knights, 30 hounds, 2 sorcerers, and some assorted characters along with a hell cannon.

See notes below.

Chaos Marauders (40#, 282.0 pts)
40 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 282.0 pts (Always Strikes Last; Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Light Armour; Frenzy)

Chaos Warriors (15#, 308.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 308.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Banner of Swiftness

Chaos Warriors (15#, 338.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 338.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Banner of Wrath

Chaos Warriors (15#, 273.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors @ 273.0 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)

Chaos Knights (8#, 395.0 pts)
8 Chaos Knights of Khorne @ 395.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Causes Fear; Frenzy)
1 Lichebone Pennant
8 Chaos Steed

Exalted Hero (1#, 226.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 226.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer; Frenzy)
1 Chaos Steed
1 Stream of Corruption
1 Banner of Rage

Sorcerer (2#, 175.0 pts)
1 Chaos Sorcerer of Tzeentch @ 175.0 pts (General; Mark of Tzeentch; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor)
1 Disc of Tzeentch (Flaming Attacks; Causes Fear; Flyer)
1 Enchanted Shield

Total Roster Cost: 1997.0

I kept the 40 marauders and gave them great weapons instead. I’m thinking of running them wide with great weapons and letting the Mark of Khorne really let them go to town on anything that they run into. Using great weapons, they’ll be able to attack with more than just the front two ranks. Not only will this unit be great for blending, but it’s also a missile magnet and will serve as an intimidation piece. The more attention away from my warriors and knights, the better.

I switched the mark of my warriors to that of Tzeentch. This way I do have the hitting power with my halberds, yet I have the ability to use my 3+ armor save and my 5+ ward. Not only will I be able to dish out the pain, but I will able to survive a bit longer now as well. They will be in three units of 5 x 3 to utilize movement and keep larger “walls” of enemy troops from getting too many attacks into me.

The knights will serve as a hammer unit and as flank protection. The BSB will be joining them here as well. This will be a good unit to create a bit of a mess in the side of the enemy formation and will certainly do its fair share of damage.

The sorcerer will be my general and will be sporting the disc. From here, he’ll be zipping around casting whatever he can to help the enemy. I have considered just taking a normal sorcerer as well, if I could find the points, and use that other one with Lore of Shadow.

I hope this list is a little bit better and rounded, let me know what you think. Your feedback is appreciated.

All the best,

Jake
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
Redarmy27 said:
Alright, thanks for the feedback guys, but I’ve gone back a bit and tried to do some re-tooling. This new result may not be perfect, but it does have a bit of flexibility to it.

I forgot to mention that the units I am placing in my army are actually ones that I own. I’m using that I have. I have a total of 70 warriors, 40 marauders, 20 knights, 30 hounds, 2 sorcerers, and some assorted characters along with a hell cannon.

See notes below.

Chaos Marauders (40#, 282.0 pts)
40 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 282.0 pts (Always Strikes Last; Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Light Armour; Frenzy)

Chaos Warriors (15#, 308.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 308.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Banner of Swiftness

Chaos Warriors (15#, 338.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 338.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Banner of Wrath

Chaos Warriors (15#, 273.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors @ 273.0 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)

Chaos Knights (8#, 395.0 pts)
8 Chaos Knights of Khorne @ 395.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Causes Fear; Frenzy)
1 Lichebone Pennant
8 Chaos Steed

Exalted Hero (1#, 226.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 226.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer; Frenzy)
1 Chaos Steed
1 Stream of Corruption
1 Banner of Rage

Sorcerer (2#, 175.0 pts)
1 Chaos Sorcerer of Tzeentch @ 175.0 pts (General; Mark of Tzeentch; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor)
1 Disc of Tzeentch (Flaming Attacks; Causes Fear; Flyer)
1 Enchanted Shield

Total Roster Cost: 1997.0

I kept the 40 marauders and gave them great weapons instead. I’m thinking of running them wide with great weapons and letting the Mark of Khorne really let them go to town on anything that they run into. Using great weapons, they’ll be able to attack with more than just the front two ranks. Not only will this unit be great for blending, but it’s also a missile magnet and will serve as an intimidation piece. The more attention away from my warriors and knights, the better.

I switched the mark of my warriors to that of Tzeentch. This way I do have the hitting power with my halberds, yet I have the ability to use my 3+ armor save and my 5+ ward. Not only will I be able to dish out the pain, but I will able to survive a bit longer now as well. They will be in three units of 5 x 3 to utilize movement and keep larger “walls” of enemy troops from getting too many attacks into me.

The knights will serve as a hammer unit and as flank protection. The BSB will be joining them here as well. This will be a good unit to create a bit of a mess in the side of the enemy formation and will certainly do its fair share of damage.

The sorcerer will be my general and will be sporting the disc. From here, he’ll be zipping around casting whatever he can to help the enemy. I have considered just taking a normal sorcerer as well, if I could find the points, and use that other one with Lore of Shadow.

I hope this list is a little bit better and rounded, let me know what you think. Your feedback is appreciated.

All the best,

Jake

It does look better. You're still wasting points on light armor for your Marauders though; too many things bypass a 6+ armor save for it to be worth anything.

For your Warriors, keep in mind that if you have a halberd you must use it over HW+shield. So in CC, you will only have a 4+ AS and 6+ WS from MoT. If you want an anvil unit, you would probably want to ditch the halberd.
 

logan054

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Aug 16, 2007
2,523
Ipswich
Sweeney Todd said:
I didn't think the warriors would be able to hold at all. That was why I pulled out the math.

In the rather biased example which has a small unit of chaos warriors which certainly is less than optimal against a unit with a optimal formation then yes WL will destroy. I do tend to thinkmore practically when talking about x vs y unit, I tend to think what formation you would actually being using based on the kind of army I use. So you think you would put you WL 9 wide? really? so your going to leave you unit exposed to lone models, be it a hero, a monster, a chariot or a warshrine, even a unit of marauder horsemen in the flank with flails is going to hurt. I personally don't see you using them more than 6 wide simply because of this. I am yet to be out numbered by a HE player simply because of the amount they invest in characters.

If I was to use a unit of chaos warriors in combat with SM it would be MoT and HW+SH and it would be very handy if the HE player has lore of shadows :)

The example you have used is how a experienced player beats a unit of chaos warriors used by a noob who just moves his army forward without thinking and has now place reality.

Redarmy27 said:
Alright, thanks for the feedback guys, but I’ve gone back a bit and tried to do some re-tooling. This new result may not be perfect, but it does have a bit of flexibility to it.

I forgot to mention that the units I am placing in my army are actually ones that I own. I’m using that I have. I have a total of 70 warriors, 40 marauders, 20 knights, 30 hounds, 2 sorcerers, and some assorted characters along with a hell cannon.

See notes below.

Chaos Marauders (40#, 282.0 pts)
40 Chaos Marauders of Khorne @ 282.0 pts (Always Strikes Last; Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Light Armour; Frenzy)

Seems good, You need to be well aware however when you use so many units they will not all do something, certainly keep this unit.

Chaos Warriors (15#, 308.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 308.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Banner of Swiftness

Chaos Warriors (15#, 338.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 338.0 pts (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Banner of Wrath

Chaos Warriors (15#, 273.0 pts)
15 Chaos Warriors @ 273.0 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Chaos Armor; Shield)

I still think 2 units of more than enough, say something like


19x CW
- MoT
- Shields
- fullcommand
- blastered standard

put your sorcerer here

18x CW
- MoK
- halberds
- shields
- fullcommand
- warbanner/banner of eternal flame

Your tzeentch warriors provide a solid anchor for the army and a good bunker for you wizard, you khorne warrriors provide a nice strong killy unit. If they have flaming attacks then you have a nice counter to models with regen (festus, hydra, heroes, gut magic)

Chaos Knights (8#, 395.0 pts)
8 Chaos Knights of Khorne @ 395.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Causes Fear; Frenzy)
1 Lichebone Pennant
8 Chaos Steed

Make it 9 with MoT and banner of rage.

Exalted Hero (1#, 226.0 pts)
1 Exalted Hero of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 226.0 pts (Mark of Khorne; Barding; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer; Frenzy)
1 Chaos Steed
1 Stream of Corruption
1 Banner of Rage

What about:

exalted hero
- MoT
- collar of Khorne
- Ironcurse icon
- Sword of might
- barded steed
- shield
- BSB if you must
- you can gifts if you like

how does this work, well the unit has banner of rage so he and the unit are now frenzied, they both have MoT so with MR2 they have a 4+ wardsave against and with ironcurse icon they have a 5+ wardsave against warmachines. He has 5 WS7 S6 attacks, 1+ save and a 5+ wardsave.


Sorcerer (2#, 175.0 pts)
1 Chaos Sorcerer of Tzeentch @ 175.0 pts (General; Mark of Tzeentch; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor)
1 Disc of Tzeentch (Flaming Attacks; Causes Fear; Flyer)
1 Enchanted Shield

If he is on a disc then he needs goldern eye of tzeentch, I still think he would be better with the warriors and if you did so a spell familiar could be a good idea of even the 5+ wardsave item (so a cheap 4+ on him).

I would also get some chaos hounds, 3 units of 5 would be great
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
logan054 said:
Sweeney Todd said:
I didn't think the warriors would be able to hold at all. That was why I pulled out the math.

In the rather biased example which has a small unit of chaos warriors which certainly is less than optimal against a unit with a optimal formation then yes WL will destroy. I do tend to thinkmore practically when talking about x vs y unit, I tend to think what formation you would actually being using based on the kind of army I use. So you think you would put you WL 9 wide? really? so your going to leave you unit exposed to lone models, be it a hero, a monster, a chariot or a warshrine, even a unit of marauder horsemen in the flank with flails is going to hurt. I personally don't see you using them more than 6 wide simply because of this. I am yet to be out numbered by a HE player simply because of the amount they invest in characters.

Actually, no, my experience has been the opposite. A smart HE player knows all he needs is a L4 Archmage with Book of Hoeth for Dwellers Below/Purple Sun spam, a L2 Death or Shadows Mage for S/I debuffs to go with the Dwellers Below/Purple Sun, and a cheap BSB hiding somewhere to wave the flag for re-rolls. The points saved go into, you guessed it, more units, which may be more SM or WL units.

HE don't lack shooting, I mean sure, theirs isn't as flat out powerful as other armies', but they (usually) have enough shooting to take out chariots, Marauder Horsemen and to a lesser extent, monsters. These are the units we would typically use to flank. That's why it's a lot more difficult for us to flank them than it seems, and a lot easier for them to dictate terms of engagement especially with Swift Reform on Ld10 with rerolls(to shove their ranks of 8 or 9 in your face with :D).

That aside, I agree with much of your recommendations. The OP may wish to trade halberd and shield on his MoK Warrior unit for great weapons though. Firstly, the cost is the same. Due to MoK and the halberd, you can never benefit from the Parry save in CC, hence the shield will only be used against ranged attacks. And 3 WS5 S6 attacks per pax(for the front rank) is actually quite scary. The tradeoff is that you have to settle for Always Striking Last, but apparently not everyone sees the value of I5. This is one of those 'your mileage may vary' things.

Regarding the BSB, I'd go for MoT with Talisman of Preservation and either Ironcurse Icon or Charmed Shield for that few remaining points of magic item allowance. The reason why I won't take Collar of Khorne is the prevalence of Purple Sun/Dwellers Below spam in the current 8ed meta, against which 8ed Magic Resistance is useless. Lack of killing power can be compensated for with a great weapon. One big drawback is that this loadout for the BSB is very boring and cookie cutter :(. If you don't find Purple Sun/Dwellers spam such an issue though, the build suggested by logan would be good as well

A Sorcerer that's also your general on a Disc of Tzeentch zipping around by himself is something I'm sceptical about. The changes to line of sight and Look Out Sir! in 8ed have made such characters very vulnerable to getting sniped. A safer bet would simply be to bunker him, but you may be able to make the Disc work for you if you have the goods.
 

logan054

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Aug 16, 2007
2,523
Ipswich
Sweeney Todd said:
Actually, no, my experience has been the opposite. A smart HE player knows all he needs is a L4 Archmage with Book of Hoeth for Dwellers Below/Purple Sun spam, a L2 Death or Shadows Mage for S/I debuffs to go with the Dwellers Below/Purple Sun, and a cheap BSB hiding somewhere to wave the flag for re-rolls. The points saved go into, you guessed it, more units, which may be more SM or WL units.

I have had alot of experience with Book Hoeth/Teclis but its usually with Lore of metal, those spells are great and all but good chaos player will have 3rd eye of Tzeeentch and you have just reminded me of 10pts talisman to give my sorcerer so he passes all his characteristic tests :D.

So as a chaos players you have options to counter this, either turn the spells back on the HE player (gotta love that 3rd eye and dwellers below) or a certain spells in the lore of Tzeentch. you then dispel debuffs and caste them straight back :D

As for the shooting, Oh no, please, stop with the strength 3, I guess me T4 and 3+ save will just have to take that ;)

Yes I have played HE a lot and I know exactly how to kill them, they are not that great, ASF is just a pain, 3rd eye really is a great item and the amount of moaning because you turn someones broken combo's straight back on them! its even better if you get first turn because you can kill that lvl4 before he even does anything with his own broken combo!


HE don't lack shooting, I mean sure, theirs isn't as flat out powerful as other armies', but they (usually) have enough shooting to take out chariots, Marauder Horsemen and to a lesser extent, monsters.

sadly you can't kill everything and most armies I face can't afford a lvl4 and loads of shootings (usually a unit of seaguard, 1 archers, RBT or 2) and a decent unit of SM and a decent unit of WL and lvl2 and a BSB. Maybe a unit of 18 each but really, 18 T3 models, they are going to last all game! They might make it to combat

That aside, I agree with the vast majority of your recommendations. The OP may wish to trade halberd and shield on his MoK Warrior unit for great weapons though. Firstly, the cost is the same. Due to MoK and the halberd, you can never benefit from the Parry save in CC, hence the shield will only be used against ranged attacks. And 3 WS5 S6 attacks per pax(for the front rank) is actually quite scary. The tradeoff is that you have to settle for Always Striking Last, but apparently not everyone sees the value of I5. This is one of those 'your mileage may vary' things.

I thought you said before halberds was better for CW :P Its a good unit with halberds, its a good unit with great weapons, it really depends if you expect to face a lot of T4 and/or high save models. As for MoK and halberds this is simply because of shooting, I would give my Chaos warriors with great weapons shields if I could find the points however i do very often find I am very tight on pts :(

I5 is certainly very good but I find it is very situational, you will have some fights that striking first could have turned it while others having that extra strength would have made a bigger impact. I prime example is yesterday, I got a flank charge on a unit of 10 empire knights with Grand master, with strength 6 I managed to kill the whole back rank however of I had of had strength 5 I would have only killed two. With the overkill on my champions he would have scored 5 to my 6 which in effect would have meant he would have passed his leadership test and I would not have been able to run him down.

This would have in effect meant my opponent could have flank charged my chaos warriors and caused some serious pain possibly costing me a 400pts unit.

Regarding the BSB, I'd go for MoT with Talisman of Preservation and either Ironcurse Icon or Charmed Shield for that few remaining points of magic item allowance. The reason why I won' take Collar of Khorne is the prevalence of Purple Sun/Dwellers Below spam in the current 8ed meta, against which 8ed Magic Resistance is useless. Lack of killing power can be compensated for with a great weapon. One big drawback is that this loadout for the BSB is very boring and cookie cutter :(. If you don't find Purple Sun/Dwellers spam such an issue though, the build suggested by logan would be good as well

Its a tough one, I am however very used to playing against Lore of metal as I said before so my suggestion is in line with this, 3+ wardsave and great weapons is a very solid choice indeed. It does really depends how people in your local area play and how much of a issue the fun spells are.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
logan054 said:
sadly you can't kill everything and most armies I face can't afford a lvl4 and loads of shootings (usually a unit of seaguard, 1 archers, RBT or 2) and a decent unit of SM and a decent unit of WL and lvl2 and a BSB. Maybe a unit of 18 each but really, 18 T3 models, they are going to last all game! They might make it to combat

I think your experience is a bit different from mine, as 2.5k is the points level usually played at my LGS. That and there's a blanket ban on all special characters. My chariot(s) don't usually do much as they get shot by 3 or so bolt throwers and so they die before they do anything meaningful.

logan054 said:
I thought you said before halberds was better for CW :P Its a good unit with halberds, its a good unit with great weapons, it really depends if you expect to face a lot of T4 and/or high save models. As for MoK and halberds this is simply because of shooting, I would give my Chaos warriors with great weapons shields if I could find the points however i do very often find I am very tight on pts :(

I5 is certainly very good but I find it is very situational, you will have some fights that striking first could have turned it while others having that extra strength would have made a bigger impact. I prime example is yesterday, I got a flank charge on a unit of 10 empire knights with Grand master, with strength 6 I managed to kill the whole back rank however of I had of had strength 5 I would have only killed two. With the overkill on my champions he would have scored 5 to my 6 which in effect would have meant he would have passed his leadership test and I would not have been able to run him down.

This would have in effect meant my opponent could have flank charged my chaos warriors and caused some serious pain possibly costing me a 400pts unit.

Well actually having a bit of time to think, as well as having played a few more games helped changed my mine. I did have an experience in one of my first games with WoC which showed the value of halberds. I charged a unit of Greatswords with a Warrior Priest inside in the front with my 20 man unit of Khorne Warriors with halberd and shield. I lost 4 or 5 guys but killed thrice that number in Greatswords, however thanks to Stubborn and nearby BSB they held. Next turn he countercharged with Halberdiers in the flank and rear as well. Before they could do anything, my Warriors had killed 8 in every direction. Needless to say, against such a killing spree the Halberdiers broke, leaving the Greatswords and Priest to be ripped to shreds subsequently.

Had my Warriors been armed with great weapons, the Halberdiers would have struck before me and likely dragged down a few of my guys. In a situation where I was fighting on 3 fronts and I was down to about 15 men, every last model was important.

PS: 'Fun spells'? I beg to differ. IMO Purple Sun and Dwellers Below are the scourge of 8th Edition, especially when combined with a Power Scroll or Book of Hoeth.
 

logan054

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Aug 16, 2007
2,523
Ipswich
Sweeney Todd said:
I think your experience is a bit different from mine, as 2.5k is the points level usually played at my LGS. That and there's a blanket ban on all special characters. My chariot(s) don't usually do much as they get shot by 3 or so bolt throwers and so they die before they do anything meaningful.

I have to say my recent experiences against HE players have not been against good players, one of them now has learnt to put his wizards in units after a casted a lvl2 fireball on his wizard and score 5 wounds on it, needless to say he didn't make enough wardsaves. The last one was in a local tournaments and he left his lvl4 with Book of hoeth behind his SM which got charged by a unit of cos knights.

My general tactic for SM is kill the support, blast them with a lvl3 fireball, retreat from every charge, rally repeat, killed a unit of 30 like that and thanks to the angel i had him at I had a lot of room to flee :D Then my Chaos knights just march out of his charge arc keeping him out of mine so I don't roll for frenzy. I wish my local banned special characters, that not to say they are all bad but some are just stupid.

logan054 said:
Well actually having a bit of time to think, as well as having played a few more games helped changed my mine. I did have an experience in one of my first games with WoC which showed the value of halberds. I charged a unit of Greatswords with a Warrior Priest inside in the front with my 20 man unit of Khorne Warriors with halberd and shield. I lost 4 or 5 guys but killed thrice that number in Greatswords, however thanks to Stubborn and nearby BSB they held. Next turn he countercharged with Halberdiers in the flank and rear as well. Before they could do anything, my Warriors had killed 8 in every direction. Needless to say, against such a killing spree the Halberdiers broke, leaving the Greatswords and Priest to be ripped to shreds subsequently.

Had my Warriors been armed with great weapons, the Halberdiers would have struck before me and likely dragged down a few of my guys. In a situation where I was fighting on 3 fronts and I was down to about 15 men, every last model was important

Well certainly in that instant I5 S5 would be far better however I wouldn't be putting my great weapon warriors in that position, I still have a unit of 20 warriors with MoT and HW+SH for such things which can then either be back up by marauder horsemen or hounds. The hounds would be positioned on the flank and angled so his halberders can't get into my flank and if they try to charge the hounds they go shooting past.

My great weapon warriors are however amazing against Dwarfs, Saurus, chaos warriors and any enemy cavalry, they certainly will take some loses but they will slice through any unit no matter the save. Hell I think the average against T4 4+ save models is about 14 kills which is usually enough to reduce the ranks so they are not steadfast, even if I lose a rank. It also means if I so choose I can take out enemy characters, be it a vampire lord, a BSB or whatever.


Anyways for me it comes down to what I have in my list, what role I want it to play and if I already have a unit or 2 or even 3 that can perform that roll, If I already have 3 units with strength that are going to be great at killing T3 infantry do I really need another? lets say I have a unit of marauders with great weapons, a unit of marauder horsemen with flails and a unit of chaos knights all with strength 5 does a unit of chaos warriors with halberds really anything that I don't have covered? If the answer is no then we decide what else I need. Maybe its some tzeentch warriors with HW+SH, again how many of these units do I really need? If I have units with strength 5 then really do I need additional hand weapon units? usually not because the strength 5 units are better at killing drops which then usually makes me think what can I add to the list to deal with high save and/or high armour units. The list doesn't have that many options, you can go down the route of ogres however chaos warriors with great weapons will perform the same task but better. Unlike with ogres when I start losing models from the 2nd rank I am only losing 1 attacks, with ogres its 3. Fear isn't much of a issue as most armies are either immune or can reroll the test, with random charges M6 isn't a massive advantage either (not like it was).

So for me I find the use of great weapon warriors very handy, they certainly will come unstuck in certain situations just as a unit of CH with halberds will, they have more room for bad luck to take hold, be it because of the lower save mod or because against a T4 opponent they are wounds on a 3+ rather than a 2+, my chaos knights had this happen, I was slapping out 14 strength 5 attacks against a unit of chaos warriors, I score 3 wounds which all saved, if they had been strength 5 it would have been 8/9 wounds.

PS: 'Fun spells'? I beg to differ. IMO Purple Sun and Dwellers Below are the scourge of 8th Edition, especially when combined with a Power Scroll or Book of Hoeth.

"Fun"

I hope that clears up my meaning of the use fun, you can replace fun with broken, stupid, overpowered or which ever word you feel is appropriate ;) I still think 3rd eye is funny on those spells, especially if the opponent starts moaning about 3rd eye. Its really a case of "I'm just using the stupid lore you choose to use against me".
 

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