• Roll-up! Roll-up! Come one and all the fantastic Turning the World to Darkness painting competition. Welcome to any skill level, you can find out more here.
  • It's time once again to ferret out those murderous vampires in a new VAU - Vampires Amongst Us. A cross between Cluedo and a roleplay, sometimes gory and often hilarious! Find out more here.

Wounds from CR

dzungia

Skeleton
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
98
#1
Imagine a unit of 7 zombies and 3 necromancers in it. And they are charged by a unit of empire knights. Here comes the question:
If you lose 5 zombies. And the combat resolution gives a 5-0. How can I distribute the wounds on remaining 2 zombies and 3 necromancers?

1) 2 wounds on zombies and the remaining 3 on each necromancer. But in this case there is a zombie unit without zombies, in which there are 3 necromancers. So that does not make a sense and it looks sensible to distribute 2 wounds on zombies and after this point we have 3 different units (characters cannot be kept together to form a unit, at least 1 zombie is needed). So at the end, we have 3 dead necromancers. Which way is true?

2) I get the wounds as 1 zombie dead, 1 zombie undead. Remaining 4 wounds are distributed as 2 on 1 necromancer, so he is dead, the remaining is distributed among the remaining 2 necromancers, so they have 1 wound to go.
 

Voltaire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
2,763
#2
Zombies first then the Necromancers are removed. You would remove whole models at a time too, so would lose 2 zombies, then a necromancer and one would remain on one wound. Distribution in the manner you describe in both cases is not possible.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#3
Well the player can decide where and when to remove the wounds. So you can go one wound on each Necromancer, then remove the two Zombies. Unless your opponent is very nice and lets you keep them as one unit (Neither supported nor forbidden by the rules), you will then have three separate lone Necromancer units on one wound, all of which will no doubt die next turn!

Alternatively you can remove one Zombie, one full Necromancer and then distribute the other two wounds as you see fit among the Necromancers (So either a second killed Necromancer or both down one wound).
 

dzungia

Skeleton
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
98
#4
Hmmm... Here people say, if at the end there are will be 3 seperate units like here, at the beginning (zombies are still undead + 3 necros) all 4 units take that CR damage of 4. Do you have any written evidence which support your ideas on this subject? (from the armybook, or the 7th edition rule book wherever)
 

Arion

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
3,414
#5
Ok they take 5 combat res wounds.2 go to the remaining zombies(obviously).So 3 to go.At the time when the 'UNIT' took the damage they were all joined and so will take the damage as if they were joined.You dont take models away until youve allocated all the wounds.So what i would do is to kill the 2 zombies and allocate one wound to each necro.

from AB
If character are present in the unit or if they are riding a monster the controlling player can decide how to allocate the wounds among the unit,the monster and the characters.

NOTE! it says characters so you can choose for one wound per necro if you wish.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#6
dzungia said:
Hmmm... Here people say, if at the end there are will be 3 seperate units like here, at the beginning (zombies are still undead + 3 necros) all 4 units take that CR damage of 4. Do you have any written evidence which support your ideas on this subject? (from the armybook, or the 7th edition rule book wherever)
No army book reference, but the simplest of logic: Are you applying the crumbling wounds to the unit before or after they've taken the crumbling wounds? Obviously, it's before, when they're one unit. So treat them like one.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#7
EvC said:
Unless your opponent is very nice and lets you keep them as one unit (Neither supported nor forbidden by the rules), you will then have three separate lone Necromancer units on one wound, all of which will no doubt die next turn!
Actually the rules forbid you to keep them as one unit, it's not your opponent's choice at all. So you would have three seperate lone Necromancers as the only choice.

Page 72 Characters and Units: Joining and leaving units:-

However, during the course of a battle, a character is allowed to join a friendly unit of troops - infantry, cavalry, unit of chariots or a war machine's crew, but never a monster, single chariot, unit of flyers, or another character!

So in effect, as soon as the two Zombies crumble, the unit ceases to exist and the Necromancers are back to moving and fighting on their own. You still have control on how to distribute the remaining 3 CR, but your Necro's are suddenly in alot of trouble. And you can't invoke back to them as an existing unit, as the unit no longer exists. You would have to raise a new unit, and then have the Necro's join that new unit, which wouldn't be until your next turn after you had raised the new unit. If they survive to do so, you are very lucky indeed.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#8
Sigh. There's a reason I said that it was "neither supported nor forbidden by the rules". Look at what you just quoted: they cannot join another character; but in this case, they are already a unit, they have already been joined- and I think the rules then say how it is possible for characters to leave a unit, and it doesn't list being split apart by casualties as a method. Hence the weird rules grey area that I described. And hence why it would be down to you and your opponent to decide whether they would get to remain as a unit, or whether they would instantly split apart- because the rules certainly don't say so! Unsurprisingly, most opponents would say they're each instantly formed into their own unit, and most people would probably agree to that, as it's the easiest method.

But regardless, you'd have to be pretty naive to allocate the two wounds to the Zombies, then allocate all three remaining wounds to each of the three Necromancers... (As you can allocate one wound to each Necromancer before allocating the other two to the Zombies, at the very least)
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#9
@Voltaire: That is incorrect. Wounds taken from lost CR are not distributed like shooting, and a unit of 3 characters do not function like units of MW monsters.
@EvC: That's correct.

Quote from army book:
"If characters are present in the unit, or if they are riding a monster, the controlling player can decide how to allocate wounds among the unit, the monster and the characters."

You have a unit of 3 necromancers, and 2 zombies. You can allocate the 5 wounds lost from CR any way you wish. You can kill 2 necromancers, and wound the third, leaving a necro and 2 zombies, or kill 2 zombies and give one wound to each of the necromancers. Any way you want. I assume all wounds applied by CR are applied simultaneously, although it doesn't state this.
 

dzungia

Skeleton
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
98
#10
The dice for the wounds are thrown simultaneously, so I dont think that you check whether the zombie unit still exists after each wound. That makes me think that first CR wounds are distributed and THEN there are no zombies but 2 necromancers. At least finally, I and our group of WHF players decided on such a solution which is an advantage for us.

Have anyone met such a situation before? I started to use 10 zombies to put my necromancers in my last 4 games and whenever I lose, this situation pops up.

This thread is not commited to that but where can I find other ways to protect my necromancers? We have no shooters and no skirmishers which the necromancers may join. So a unit which is cheap and protects the necromancers from being picked out by a shot: Zombies! Any other ideas?
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#11
EvC said:
Sigh. There's a reason I said that it was "neither supported nor forbidden by the rules". Look at what you just quoted: they cannot join another character; but in this case, they are already a unit, they have already been joined- and I think the rules then say how it is possible for characters to leave a unit, and it doesn't list being split apart by casualties as a method. Hence the weird rules grey area that I described. And hence why it would be down to you and your opponent to decide whether they would get to remain as a unit, or whether they would instantly split apart- because the rules certainly don't say so! Unsurprisingly, most opponents would say they're each instantly formed into their own unit, and most people would probably agree to that, as it's the easiest method.
Bigger sigh. The rules clearly state that 2 or more characters together do not make a unit! Please, look up page 72 and actually read what it says. It says that characters usually move and fight on their own, but they can choose to join another friendly unit of troops, and specifies these troop types that they can join. It specifies what troop types they cannot join, including other characters. You cannot have a unit that is solely made up of characters. As soon as the last troop is gone, the unit ceases to exist.

Seriously guys, start quoting page references and actually what is written in the BRB as opposed to saying that you think the rules say this or that. For example, if you look up further on page 72 from where I quoted, you will see that under Movement it states:-

A character model is moved and fights as an individual piece, except that he may also join up with and fight alongside units of troops as described below

Then go down further the page to where I quoted from before....

but never a monster, single chariot, unit of flyers or another character!

RAW guys, RAW. Characters together cannot form a unit!!! Last Zombie crumbles, unit no longer exists!!! @#$^#@$^!
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#12
Biggest sigh. And I'm sighing at the rules here by the way, for it's their wording that is at fault. Please actually read page 72 rather than just telling me to do so (When I already have done, and so have arrived at this position), note the word "join" then get back to me. If you need help understanding what "join" means, I refer you to dictionary.com . If two characters are already in a unit, and the unit dies, they do not "join" together to form a unit, they already are a unit. No joining necessary. Grey area. Easy to solve- split them apart at the first opportunity... but not actually stated in the rules.
 

dzungia

Skeleton
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
98
#13
darknesseternal said:
Bigger sigh. The rules clearly state that 2 or more characters together do not make a unit! Please, look up page 72 and actually read what it says. It says that characters usually move and fight on their own, but they can choose to join another friendly unit of troops, and specifies these troop types that they can join. It specifies what troop types they cannot join, including other characters. You cannot have a unit that is solely made up of characters. As soon as the last troop is gone, the unit ceases to exist.
No objections your honor. But the question is what happens when there are 2 necromancers AND 2 zombies and CR is lost 4-0. Not what happens when we only have 2 necromancers remaining and CR is lost 4-0.

And I completely agree that the comments on rules has got to be quoted from the rule book or the armybook. You cannot just say in my opinion in a tournament or even in a friendly battle. The opponent will have another opinion o_o You need evidence from the book. And by the way, to say it is logical to do that in that way sentence is not logical itself when said by a vampire whose existence is not so logical:) In other words, this is a game and the rules does not have to depend on logic and/or fluff. The rules must support a kind of balance between armies, they must be easy to use bla bla...
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#14
The rules have grey areas however, so sometimes, in that weird contract to have fun known as a "game", you will have to cover certain situations by yourselves and think outside the rules. But here the solution is very clear and I think agreed by all- allocate wounds to the unit as you see fit.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#15
EVC... the problem is that two or three characters cannot be a unit. They can be in the same unit with other friendly troops, but once those other troops are gone, so is the unit.

I note the word 'join' fine, thank you. I also note 'and fight alongside units of troops as described below'. Would you please like to look up 'fight alongside' at the afore mentioned dictionary.com. Also while your there, please look up 'never', as in regards to the afore quoted 'but never a monster, single chariot, unit of flyers or another character!'.

Perhaps it is you who needs help understanding the two together. I understand it quite fine thank you. 'A character can fight alongside units of troops as described below'. Hmmmm let's go down the page a bit further, ahhh yes, there we go. List of troops that they can fight alongside of.. and what do we have here? 'But never a monster, single chariot, unit of flyers or another character!'. So if I follow what is written, characters can fight alongside this list of troops, but not this list. Hmmmmm really don't see the grey area at all.. ;)
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#16
Then I give you this example Darkness Eternal.

Block of infantry clip charge a unit of 3 necromancers and a zombie. They kill the zombie. Are they now no longer in combat as soon as that zombie gets killed? They're not touching anything, and as they're no longer in a unit, they would no longer be in combat correct?

If so, I'll have to use zombie conga lines a lot more! Therefore, my necros would not be in combat, and I could allocate CR to the zombies to free them from combat.

....IIIII
....IIIII
....IIIII
....IIIII
....IIIII
NNNZ

I could use a formation like this: All I would have to do is turn them backwards, and unless they actually got into range to charge a necromancer (unlikely with the crazy wheeling), it would be unlikely for them to die from CR.

Z
Z
Z
Z
Z
N
N


For the example of the 2 zombies and three necromancers it does not matter. You don't allocate portions of CR, apply it, then apply the rest. You apply it all at once. And having characters, you choose where the wounds are allocated. So distribute the wounds however you like. After applying the CR, then I would say the necromancers are no longer a unit. I agree it's a grey area, but I think declaring them no longer a unit after combat makes more sense than part way into combat.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#17
darknesseternal said:
Perhaps it is you who needs help understanding the two together. I understand it quite fine thank you. 'A character can fight alongside units of troops as described below'. Hmmmm let's go down the page a bit further, ahhh yes, there we go. List of troops that they can fight alongside of.. and what do we have here? 'But never a monster, single chariot, unit of flyers or another character!'. So if I follow what is written, characters can fight alongside this list of troops, but not this list. Hmmmmm really don't see the grey area at all.. ;)
"'A character can fight alongside units of troops as described below'" -> this is a general statement. The listing further down the page, in another section (Didn't think I'd check, did you?) only lists what units he can join, not what units he can fight alongside. Furthermore, look on a bit, and you'll see that a character can't leave a unit that is fighting in close combat. Funny thing is, I still think they'd count as separate units as soon as the round of combat is over!

So it's still a grey area, and there is nothing saying they can't fight alongside each other: in fact, if there was a rule saying they cannot fight alongside other characters, that'd be a bit of a blow, as it would mean you can't put multiple characters in one unit!
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#18
EVC I actually believe we are in fact in agreeance on this when it comes down to it. My arguement is not about how the CR is applied as the rules are clear on how this is done. What I am saying/arguing is that the rules are clear in that once that round of combat is over and the CR has been distributed, as there are no ordinary troops left from the original unit, only the characters, that they revert back to being individual seperate units. You can have multiple characters in the one unit, as long as there are ordinary troops along with them. When there is not, they revert to being seperate individual units in terms of how they move and fight, and this occurs at the end of the current phase. Thus you would not be able to invoke back into the unit if there were only characters left, as it is no longer an existing unit. You do agree that the rules state that a character can never join to form a unit with another character, yes? As I have posted the exact quote about that from the BRB already. So if that is the case, why or how then would it be possible if all that is left from a unit is the characters, that they could continue on fighting together as a unit? It does not say in the BRB 'an exception to the never is...'; it states never. Thus I don't see the grey area in that regard.

Grish, your example that you gave... you do realise that under the 7th ed rules that a clip charge is one of the things that is the heaviest in being discouraged against? You look to maximise frontage, not to clip, so in the example you gave, the infantry unit charging would seek to maximise the frontage, and you wouldn't have the situation of the zombie only being in combat. It was a bad example.. the Necros would be in close combat, and they would be dead. Your example shows that the charging unit would get at least one wound, have 3 ranks, they would most likely have a standard, they would have outnumber, they would seek to challenge one of the necros with the unit champion, or whatever character they had in the unit, and that necro would probably end up dead. So you are looking at what? Losing the CR by around 6 - 8? Necros would be dust. What I was arguing about with EVC, is how would surviving characters that no longer have a unit of ordinary troops around them after CR has been done, treated? They are treated as being individual seperate units.
 

dzungia

Skeleton
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
98
#20
Grishnak has a point though. What if the necro+zombie unit is charged from rear by a lonesome hero, an empire captain lets say. And he killed the zombie?

NNNZ <-- C

NNN C

What will happen now? If all 3 necromancers are in the combat, Captain kills 1 (1-0), 3 necromancers vs 1 captain so outnumbered (1-1), at the end charging from the rear gives one more (2-1 for the captain).

OR

After the absolute death of the zombie we have only 1 necromancer in combat. That makes no points for outnumbering. 2-0 for the captain.

OR

The zombie was at the rear. He was killed. And the others do not touch so no longer in combat. So no CR calculations...


There must be an order in CR calculation right? First calculate then split, or split when applicable then go ahead with CR calculation... The question is the same as asking, 3 captains were in the unit with 1 swordsman. The unit is rear charged by a vampire count and only the swordsman is killed. Would all 3 captains roll for break test? Or would they only roll one break test and then split... That does not make much sense actually. Out of combat answer looks sensible but what does the book say? Or do you think we are in the "grey area"?
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#21
First resolve the close combat for the entire unit and work out the combat res. Once you have settled the combat res result, and the result of it on what is left of the unit, then you get into the issue of if there is only characters left, can they still be a unit together?

Your misunderstanding my issue. The issue is not with working out the combat res, and how it applies to the unit that lost. If you lost by 5 and had a unit of two zombies and 3 necros, you would lose the two zombies, and then decide how you wanted the 3 other CR wounds applied to the remaining 3 necros.

What I was arguing with EVC about, is what happens with the unit after the CR has been worked out and all that is left are characters. So you would resolve the whole combat first, and then deal with the question of what happens with the characters if they survive.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#22
darknesseternal said:
First resolve the close combat for the entire unit and work out the combat res. Once you have settled the combat res result, and the result of it on what is left of the unit, then you get into the issue of if there is only characters left, can they still be a unit together?
If we take the answer as "no", then would that mean the Knight gets to overrun from the dead Zombie into the Necromancer?
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#23
@DarknessEternal:

There can be a whole other discussion on sliding and maximizing frontage, but from the 7th edition Errata here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/warhammer7.pdf
Page 6 is what you're looking for.

Note the paragraph "In all these extereme situations, if you want to play literally by the rules, you have to live with the clipping and continue the game.".

So I think you can agree that this can happen, given that you are playing literally by the rules (the way I play; if someone is just barely within charge distance, why should they get a bonus for playing poorly?).

you do realise that under the 7th ed rules that a clip charge is one of the things that is the heaviest in being discouraged against?
Heavily discouraged against... does this mean in a GT final game they would allow it? Depends on the players involved I suppose, but I sure wouldn't. Not to be a jerk, but because I think if you do play literally that way, you have to think about moving your troops around more to get a good charge in.
What I was arguing about with EVC, is how would surviving characters that no longer have a unit of ordinary troops around them after CR has been done, treated? They are treated as being individual seperate units.
Yes you were, and your stance was that immediately when the zombies die, the unit is disbanded. That's why I gave this example. If so, as soon as they kill the zombies, they are no longer a unit and therefore no longer in combat. Maximizing frontage has no bearing on this example because they are not and that is the literal, legal way to play it. So I think your no grey area about when a unit is disbanded is utter nonsense.

You also did not seem to understand my second example about a reverse line that other people seemed to understand very well. dzungia has it right, but replace the Captain with an entire block of infantry headed by a captain. By your logic, as soon as the zombies are killed the necromancers are no longer in a unit, therefore they are no longer in close combat.

Your misunderstanding my issue. The issue is not with working out the combat res, and how it applies to the unit that lost. If you lost by 5 and had a unit of two zombies and 3 necros, you would lose the two zombies, and then decide how you wanted the 3 other CR wounds applied to the remaining 3 necros.
You don't have to lose any zombies. You could decide to kill two necros and give a wound to the third. After the complete combat round is done, then I would say the necromancers are separate units. There are no rules supporting this that I can find though, so really, it comes down to individual interpretation. I'm firmly in the camp that the unit is still a unit until the end of combat and they take a break test/lose wounds based on being one unit. This greatly simplifies things and I see no reason to immediately kick them out from being a unit.

@dzungia: We're definitely in a grey area. There are no rules saying when a unit is no longer a unit. Just implied rules based on what units characters can join. Arguments for and against it, but I think the necromancer lead backwards conga line would be a good tactic if as soon as the zombies are dead you're no longer a unit, as you wouldn't be in combat and therefore not applicable to CR. But I think that's silly, so I say they're a unit until end of combat.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#24
Hmm, and how about looking at it from another perspective- the original case, you remove two dead Zombies... the three Necromancer models are instantly split into their respective units, and they are no longer the unit that lost combat, so maybe they wouldn't take any extra wounds at all!
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#25
Grish and EVC... it's late here and I don't have time to answer your responses right now, but guys... did you even read my earlier post where I said this:-

"What I was arguing with EVC about, is what happens with the unit after the CR has been worked out and all that is left are characters. So you would resolve the whole combat first, and then deal with the question of what happens with the characters if they survive."

If you have worked out combat res, then the close combat phase (or round of combat) is over for that particular combat, so the whole issue of whether a group of 3 characters still can be a unit does not effect how the CR wounds are applied as they are applied before the issue of whether they are a unit or not comes up. As I clarified earlier if you had bothered to read my posts.

@Grish

The example of a clip charge you gave earlier is utter nonsense. In your example, it does not show any obstacles in the way or any reason as to why the charging unit would clip. It's not a case of the opponent charging poorly, it's a case of you providing an example to support your belief, even though it did not include a clear example as to why the clip would occur. If you did maximise the frontage as the rules tell you to do (pages 21 and 22), then in your example the Necros would be in base to base with the charging unit. Furthermore, I have yet to see you ever provide any page references or quotes from the BRB to support your arguements/opinions in any threads or discussions. I have merely seen you say things such as in your opinion or you think or you believe. Please start providing actual references as opposed to how you play it. For example, in regards to your clip charge example that you gave earlier, I fail to see what is in the way in terms of other terrain or other units that would cause such a clip, as pages 21 and 22 of the BRB, including the diagram 22.1 indicate that the free alignment given to maximise frontage may see part of the charging unit moving further than their charge move :) Again from the example you provided, I fail to see what is causing the clipping of the zombie only?
 
Top