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Wounds from CR

The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
2,586
#26
Aaaaaagh! My brain hurts! You guys are really confusing me! I would probably count them as the one unit until the next turn myself, but I'd never put 3 necromancers in 1 unit of zombies.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#27
@DarknessEternal:

Our disagreement comes from when exactly does a unit disband. We agree in the specific example given by dzungia (lord of goblins in LotR I believe?) you distribute the CR how you want as per the VC army rulebook (which I quoted, just didn't give a page reference).

From your earlier post:
darknesseternal said:
So in effect, as soon as the two Zombies crumble, the unit ceases to exist and the Necromancers are back to moving and fighting on their own. You still have control on how to distribute the remaining 3 CR, but your Necro's are suddenly in alot of trouble.
The part "as soon as the two Zombies crumble, the unit ceases to exist" is what I disagree with. I would argue it happens at the end of a phase.
darknesseternal said:
Please start providing actual references as opposed to how you play it. For example, in regards to your clip charge example that you gave [/align]earlier...
grishnakh99 said:
Quote from army book:
"If characters are present in the unit, or if they are riding a monster, the controlling player can decide how to allocate wounds among the unit, the monster and the characters."
I concede I didn't post what army book and page number. Pg. 25 in Vampire Count Army Book, 6th edition. I also concede that I do not post page numbers in all my posts. I did at the beginning, but then got very tired with looking it up. Laziness is bad on my part, but at least I answer rules questions correctly. If I don't know, I say I don't know. If requested I will post page numbers.
grishnakh99 said:
There can be a whole other discussion on sliding and maximizing frontage, but from the 7th edition Errata here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata...ammer7.pdf
Page 6 is what you're looking for.
Clipping example given as shown in the provided link, on the provided page. All I'm saying is that it CAN happen by the rules. To give reasons why that situation would occur, is irrelevant. Doesn't matter if it's due to terrain, other enemies, or if you just decide to play by the rules and not slide. Sliding leads to messy playing.

@Work, I surf this forum when I'm bored (which is a lot of the time), but I can look it up when I get home for rules on when characters disaband, but I've read the book a few times and don't think there's any clear indication of when it happens.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#28
darknesseternal said:
If you have worked out combat res, then the close combat phase (or round of combat) is over for that particular combat, so the whole issue of whether a group of 3 characters still can be a unit does not effect how the CR wounds are applied as they are applied before the issue of whether they are a unit or not comes up. As I clarified earlier if you had bothered to read my posts.
Yeah I did. There was nothing and there is still nothing in your post supported by the rules to indicate at what point the Necromancers become an individual unit. Given that there is nothing in the rulebook to state they should be made into an individual unit (Just that they can't join each other to form a unit), it obviously doesn't say when they should become an individual unit, and you haven't provided any reason as to to why it shouldn't instantaneous. I know you hate to admit that they exist, but it's clearly a grey area.

It seems a bit unfair if, say, a Tomb King on foot charges a unit consisting of a Necromancer and a Zombie in one file (Or two Necromancers in the front rank and one Zombie in the back rank), kills the Zombie with ease, but then still counts as being in combat with the surviving Necromancer until the end of the combat phase, when he will now count as being out of combat (As he no longer has contact), and doesn't get a chance to overrun and the Necromancer can therefore escape...
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#29
grishnakh99 said:
From your earlier post:
darknesseternal said:
So in effect, as soon as the two Zombies crumble, the unit ceases to exist and the Necromancers are back to moving and fighting on their own. You still have control on how to distribute the remaining 3 CR, but your Necro's are suddenly in alot of trouble.
The part "as soon as the two Zombies crumble, the unit ceases to exist" is what I disagree with. I would argue it happens at the end of a phase.
grishnakh99 said:
There can be a whole other discussion on sliding and maximizing frontage, but from the 7th edition Errata here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata...ammer7.pdf
Page 6 is what you're looking for.
Clipping example given as shown in the provided link, on the provided page. All I'm saying is that it CAN happen by the rules. To give reasons why that situation would occur, is irrelevant. Doesn't matter if it's due to terrain, other enemies, or if you just decide to play by the rules and not slide. Sliding leads to messy playing.
Grish, I agree with you. My initial post where you have quoted from, I was incorrect in saying that the unit would cease to exist as soon as the two Zombies crumble. That is why in a post after that I said:-

"What I was arguing with EVC about, is what happens with the unit after the CR has been worked out and all that is left are characters. So you would resolve the whole combat first, and then deal with the question of what happens with the characters if they survive."

Meaning, what happens to the characters that are left if the rest of the unit has been destroyed, the combat res results have been applied, and they haven't been crumbled by the combat res (in the case of Undead) or weren't run down after they fled the combat (in the case of everything else that is not Undead or Daemon). On page 74 it states:-

Once close combat has begun, a character will not be able to leave a unit he has joined until the fighting is over and any compulsory movement such as fleeing and pursuit, has been resolved.

*looks at EVC* Now is that what you are after in terms of the rules supporting when I believe that the surviving characters would cease to be a unit and revert back to being individual units? I believe yourself earlier compared them splitting to them leaving a unit? Could be wrong though, it's been a long debate/discussion and I find you lose track of who said what or what they said. But in that regard, what do you have from the rules to support how you believe it would work? There is nothing in the rules that states specifically 'if the rest of the unit is destroyed and more than one character that was in that unit actually survives, then they revert back to individual units after the close combat phase has completed', you are right in that regards. However, I'm interested in your explaination as to how it is possible, and what you can quote or refer to in the rules that supports it, that the rules clearly and catagorically state that a character can never join another character and form a unit, but that it would be ok that if two characters are all that is left of a unit, that they would continue to function together as a unit? Why state that they cannot join another character to form a unit together, but then if the rest of the unit is destroyed and they are still alive it's ok, they can be a unit together? Understand my point? And no, I don't hate to admit that grey areas exist. Obviously they do exist, but yes, I do dislike grey areas immensely, especially when the rules indicate or imply how things should work and that they follow normal logic. I dislike them because you can find yourself across the table from a jerk who will use them to abuse the rules. But yes ok, I will conceed then that it is a grey area, but for myself, it is clear how it should work and I would present the references and quotes from the BRB that I have provided to support my arguement.

@Grish. You are right about the clipping discussion. I did look at the errata link late last night, and saw that they said if you play by the letter of the rules, that clipping can indeed still occur, only that they do not encourage it and they suggest a more gentlemanly approach. Their words, not mine, though the link at the moment does not seem to be working. You get request denied when you click on it at the moment. In my group, clipping is not an issue as we are more lax with things like that and avoid situations of clipping, even if it means there has to be some sliding at times. Though for example, if it were a situation where if you go by the letter of the rules, only one model of a five model front rank would make contact due to the charge range, the agreement might be to slide a little so that three models are in contact. We try to play somewhere in the middle of the two extremes of clipping and sliding (we also exchange lists, and give a little bit of leeway like if people forget to do things etc. A little bit of leeway, not too much.). Each to his own on how you choose to play.
 

Voltaire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
2,763
#30
Subtle flamming is still flaming, my friends, please don't do it. Otherwise, good discussion!
Once done I will enquire as to other opinions on this matter for your enjoyment.
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
2,370
#31
Happened to me - necros zombie bunker died from being flanked by a Tomb Giant, both necros by the end of that combat round are still a unit so they shuffled in to the Giant who killed them in the following round. A stupid mistake from my side, my only lost game that tournament.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#32
darknesseternal said:
Once close combat has begun, a character will not be able to leave a unit he has joined until the fighting is over and any compulsory movement such as fleeing and pursuit, has been resolved.
Ah, very interesting quote, it does indeed seem to directly say that a character can leave a unit outside of the movement phase, without actually physically moving, and at what particular time. Nice one! ...but I'm still left with a longering doubt, because of the usual vague wording. Does that mean you have to wait until the entire fighting is over (i.e. the end of the combat fullstop), or just the fighting that turn?

So would you have the Necromancers in NIB's above case split from each other at the end of the first combat phase when the Zombies have been wiped out, or only after the whole combat is over (If they have miraculously survived, perhaps by using Hand of Dust)? In fact I think the wording is quite clear now that I think about it: the Necromancers should remain a unit until the combat is over (NOT just the phase!), and then and only then can they split into separate units (In the same way that Skirmishers return to Skirmish formation after a combat ends). And furthermore, you've just proved to me that in the original example, the three surviving Necromancers should indeed remain a unit until the end of the combat! By your own words ;)

Why state that they cannot join another character to form a unit together, but then if the rest of the unit is destroyed and they are still alive it's ok, they can be a unit together?
Well you can't have a character join a monster during a battle and then ride it round the battlefield either, but that doesn't mean that a character must at once get off a monster he might be riding to begin with. Silly example I know, but it just goes to show, just because you cannot do a specific action (Like joining two characters together), doesn't mean you can't be a victim of circumstance that makes it the case. Though I think you are right that the wording indicates they should split as soon as they can (It just doesn't make it entirely clear that they should, or when)...
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#33
EvC said:
And furthermore, you've just proved to me that in the original example, the three surviving Necromancers should indeed remain a unit until the end of the combat! By your own words ;)
I think you are right, you have me there. And it makes the most sense as well, that the necromancers would remain together if the close combat continued to the next phase. If by some miracle, they survived the combat, say another unit smashed into the flank or rear of the enemy unit they were engaged with, and as a result they won the combat and the enemy unit fled, then at the point that the compulsory moves were resolved, then they would seperate into individual units. I definitely have to conceed to it being much more a grey area that I first thought or would want. As I admitted, I really, really dislike grey areas in the rules :mad: But it's GW, I need to just get used to them o_o
 

Voltaire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
2,763
#34
As it stands, the question has been posted to Warseer to try and further clarify then issue.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#35
Excellent, I've helped make someone else as disillusioned with GW's rules writing processes as myself. Mission accomplished!
 
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