"you have to take ghouls"

[snowblood]

Can't quite find a forum for this post, but this one seems the best one to post it.

So here's my army......

What no ghouls you say?

You have to take ghouls?

Personally I am getting fed up with being told my army should contain...
2x 30+ ghouls
30+ GG with GW.
Ect.
What colour is your army too, shall we all paint it the same as well as field the same lists.
I don't actually own any ghouls and at £45 for a block of 30 that's £90 for my core (no wonder new players are few and far between when the prices are so much) I just can't justify it.
Why are we all playing into the hands of Games workshop by constantly buying new models everytime they nerf our rules...
The count so far
'Nids nerfed (had a genestealer list with broodlord hq)
Dwarfs nerfed (marching axes, now I need a load of thunderers and at least 2 of each warmachine)
Vamps nerfed (my £50 bloodknights are now useless, my black knights useless, my zombies, skeletons useless)
Or so people are telling me. (How much commission do you take home)
And what with comments by some that if you don't take ghouls your not a serious player..
What hope have we got.
Surely what we should be doing instead of saying go out and buy more figures is 'what have you got in your model list' then 'ah I see you have 25 blah, 30 blah ect ect' then ' well if you took your blah and then added blah then blah' we could encourage people to adapt and find new ways of battling with new strategies instead of a bland
'What army have you got'
'Vamps'
'Oh so you have 2x30 ghouls, 30+ GG. Ect'
I want to fight armys that differ. Not bog standard armies that every race has the same list, how boring is that.
Oh wait point & click, roll dice, win/lose.
Fun I think not.
So let's not debate the fact that yes on paper ghouls are better than skeletons, skeleton are better than zombies.
Let's start saying well to increase the effectiveness of your other unit entries in the book you need to be doing this and this.
Please debate this...
I don't mean to rant but hey I want to use the figures I got not the figures you think I should own.
So how do we make more effective blocks of..
Skellies, zombies, wolves, carts, bk, blood knights, ect.
How do we best utilise these...
(I just think that soon people will say 'so you have vamps' and will have a stratagy to take out your ghouls)

 

[Sanai]

RE: you have to take ghouls

Skellies black knights and blood knights are plenty effective. Zombies however are terrible. You are better off saving your zombies for use with the raise dead spell instead of wasting points on them.

 

[Count Lasombra]

RE: you have to take ghouls

That's right Snowblood,let it out...feel better huh?
In the end the general matters more than the list,this isn't chess afterall,and mathammer is often an innaccurate measure of actual play.
Army list criticism is almost always a study in extremes,tending towards certain recognisably powerful builds.
Fear creates a bottleneck,causing people to be reluctant to play lists that seem inferior on paper.While often these assumptions are right,it can suck the fun out of it.
I've found that winning by any means is not nearly as rewarding as winning in the manner that I WANT to win.So use the troops that YOU WANT,and use those troops to leave the mathematicians dead on the battlefield wondering WTF just happened.:|
...If you can :devil2:
It reminds me of that scene from the Devil's advocate where Pacino says-I paraphrase-"When she staggers bow-legged to the bathroom,does she glance back over her shoulder and see the Roman legion? Naaah!,Just lil' ol' ME!".

 

[waaanial00]

RE: you have to take ghouls

Sad fact about life comes from when you look at a flock of sheep, with so much space to roam why is it that they are happier all sitting together? Dillusion of safety in numbers.

Thats what forums do for games, they take what seems like the best approach to a problem and people parrot and preach until there seems to be nothing left but to join them. However its only words behind a screen.

What difference does it make to you if rob_zombie_255 tells you that only real men play ghouls, others are just kidding themselves. Its your flippin' hobby and your flippin' time so what difference does it make if you take skeletons instead.

To carry on the sheep acronym its easier to evade getting penned in and slaughered if you arent standing where the predator is expecting you to be, its also easier to run when they are prepared/equipped to hunt a flock. Ok so with the right playing style a bunch of Ghouls is far better than a bunch of Skeletons, however if we all played the same it would just come down to which army book is actually the best for our one play style (and luck of course, unless you master the art of rolling dices).

Ok so what works against Ghouls pretty much works against Skeletons, however maybe not. Again though who cares? So you may believe that you lose someones forum respect but people are fickle, if you end up being onto something people will flock. I have seen it time and time again on forums, usually from the most outspoken, this month they will be saying the sky is blue, tomorrow it might be a little more green but of course yesterday they never said how blue!


EDIT: Dont get me wrong I am sheeping it with the best of them, tomorrow I am taking 2 Wight Kings (1 BSB), 2 Necromancers, 40 Ghouls (Hoard), 34 Grave Guard (Hoard), Varghulf, 20 Skeleton Warriors as a 1600 point list. If thats not following the herd then I dont know what is! However in my defence most of my models are Mantic and they are some of the best I have ever painted, did I buy them because I thought they were good or because they are good models? Not even I know that

 

[Paksos]

RE: you have to take ghouls

In my defence, I was committed to Ghouls and Grave Guard before the 8th ed. switch. If you ask me, you're all just copying my lead!

 

[LuciusBlake]

RE: you have to take ghouls

well said snowblood. i must admit though for a time i was held sway under the impression of what my army should contain than what i prefer it to be. skeletons or ghouls or zombies. varghulf or coach, dragon or winged nightmare. there may be different tactics for those who use them .something even the more experienced lords might have overlooked. even if the guy wants to run 100x2 zombies as a wall. thats his prerogative. lets say he loses all the time... so what? does he stain your honor? u can help him out with some friendly advice. but if he doesnt want to.. or if someone has already mentioned it... stop!
but i'm sick and tired of everyone shooting every one else down just becuz my strategy, build or skill, is superior to yours...bla bla bla.
hell... they might as well just print a fixed army list in the armies book and only let u choose which forbidden lore you'd like.
i'm still happily running my 60 skeleton horde with drakenhoff. which i adore by the way. and it has yielded good results and survived every game. despite what people might say i have chosen not to go ghoul heavy.
& on a personal note.
some people just become too competitive for their own good... + you cant win em all...

 

[TMS]

I hope you don't mind that I changed your thread title by adding quotation marks, Snowblood. It does convey the message of the thread better that way.

I'm with you all the way here though. I've paid money for these Skeletons and I just plain like them better than the other alternatives - ergo, I will be using them.

 

[snowblood]

@masterspark. No don't mind a bit of punctual correction.
Well it seems so far that people like their skellies and want to use them.
So how do we use them effectively. As a large horde or smaller blocks and buff them.

 

[PapaNasty]

horde and buff them would work well.

Skeleton's main weaknesses are low I & low WS. Both of which are buffed substantially via Light, and the spells to buff them are low casting values too

It is a little bit strange though to use the lore of light.... we're ment to be the bad guys.... but the light just brings out our natural glow soo well

 

[desfer]

i believe that our skellies in large numbers, lets say 40+, are a very good as a defensive unit, maybe its better than ghouls in defense due to the comand group they can have. If you arrange them in horde formation and equip them with spears they can throw many attacks and its difficult to lose in close combat and suffer casualties from crumbles. Ok, ghouls have better toughness and have more attacks but they dont have armour and most important they dont have a standard bearer. Giving the war banner (i think we still can, since it costs 25 pts in VC armybook) to a skeleton unit automatically gives a +2 combat resolution bonus to the unit (standard bearer and banner's effect),also having a vampire with tomb blade and walking death, keeps the unit "alive" and gives +1 to combat resolution. That makes +3 CR and you dont have ro rely on spells to keep the unit undamaged. To be honest i use both skelletons and ghouls as my core choices. Skellies to trap enemy's units and slow them down and ghouls (along with GG) to hit them with flank or rear charges.

 

[gkgnight]

Ok this is what i belive... zombies can be useful with this combo:


Unit of 80 zombies and a vamp with lroe fo death. Wtiht eh general nearby the zombies will then be able tos wap their leadership for their strength. That means that since they use the gernerals leadership, that they could become strength 7 or 10. Combine that with the helm nad now you get

for only 4 points per model... (minus the cost of the supporting vampries)

Unbreakable Unit
Causes Fear
Can be healed back
Strength 7/10
Weaponskill 6/7

 

[zombie fist]

Does that work that way? I was looking at it the other day but I figured it would have to swap with that particular models LD, not the generals? If it does that would seem pretty nasty...

 

[BloodKnight]

I still run skellies partly because I don't own more than 30 ghouls, but also because they're meant to slow down the enemy. With the banner + war banner they're in decent shape to tie up combatants for a few turn depending how many you would take.

Again everyone worries that zombies are bad, but they're thinking with part of their brain that wants the best units in close combat to beat the other guy. Vampire Counts are not so one dimensional. Zombies are a large unit that acts like a swarm. Swarms are still good in 8th, but you got to you use them correctly.

I digress.... No you don't have to take ghouls. Especially when you don't have enough ghouls!

 

[Danceman]

RE: you have to take ghouls

In my defence, I was committed to Ghouls and Grave Guard before the 8th ed. switch. If you ask me, you're all just copying my lead!

Since the 7th ed book ghouls have always been the competitive choice, so was GG with GWs(especially with the Helm of Commandment).

There have been quite a few threads on this lately, where I and Forge(if I remember correctly) quite adamantly defended the merits of skeletons.

The unit in question was a horde based skeleton unit with spears(and I think it was with hellfire banner). The key here is magic and support. When casting the Glittering Scales from Lore of metal they get 3+ AS. You could say you could cast it on Ghouls as well but as they do not have any AS to begin with the save is too easily negated. Then there is the Okkam's Razor spell from shadows(which work exceptionally good on Ghouls as well but at the same time, poison which is the ghouls edge, is somewhat blurred by the face the skeleton unit will now have S10 so wounding isn't an issue anymore. Since the skeleton use spear and in horde formation the amount of attacks are no long in favour of the ghouls.
Skeletons also have the benefit of a banner(which comes to play in certain scenarios) and with that magical attacks which in some cases make or break a combat.

Granted you might be hard pressed to do this all at once but since we have easy access to the BRB lores this isn't much of an issue.

But even then, overall, the Ghouls are the more competitive choice.

Cheers, D.

 

[Forge]

I crush people with just skeletons all the time, i dont think i would ever lose if i used ghouls tho. the GG block is very nice tho.

 

[axamoto]

I play skellies, but am considering switching to ghouls. I like the looks of skellies better, and when I've taken ghouls in the past they've "seemed" squishy to me. But if the numbers say that, in a particular scenario, unit A is more effective, then it's not merely blind conformity that makes me want to take it.

People post all the time asking "Should I take Ghouls or Skells?" I assume they can figure out for themselves which they like better, and they're asking which is more effective.

Clearly the most important thing is to have fun. For me part of that is having an I army I like, as is playing well.

 

[Generic vampire 1]

You may not know this but by law if you dont have at least 70% of your core gouls then leaslepracauns will kidnapp you and beat you for 72 hours then chuck norris will pimp slap you. i assume "you have to take ghouls" is due to this

 

[snowblood]

@generic-vampire
F*#K chuck, I got a bruce lee zombie in my closet, he beat him once and will be him twice.
Anything serious to say about the post!
No!
Then sit on a finger!

 

[Generic vampire 1]

@ snowblood damn thats a bit harsh sorry for offending you.

my honest opinion ghouls do tend to be better the only thing that is better for the skellies is armour and parry saves witch the toughness effectively cancells out. gouls are my choice for serious play but i have more models of skellies and i prefer their look and feel in an undead army my prefrance is skellies but for no tactical reasoning. they both work fine in my opinion personal prefrance.

 

[fades]

What the hell happen with our core and the Blood and Glory scenario? If you choose to have only Ghouls as core you will loose this scenario before the battle even begun.(Why dont I ever hear about this when people say: GO GHOULS!) I find it amusing that people only see one way to use a unit, what its good for or not. When they should think; how many ways can I use this unit for my benefit to the entire army? What is its purpose, why do I need them? How do I use them most effective, and what do I want to meet with this army? How many armies will i probably meet that this army would be good against.
But there are always one person who tells you this: BUT MY CALCULATIONS SAYS.....

There are so many combos of troops you could choose from, so in the end: What do you enjoy the most? Is it important for you to win every game, to be a competitive person. Perhaps you are there to meet other people for the joy of the hobby. You just picked up the game as you find the painting the most amusing part of the warhammer. Or are you a reader of the story from the armies throughout the warhammer world.

Yeah the numbers are there, and we know it by now. Find a army you enjoy playing with, either it is a strong or a weak one, in the end its about what YOU feel about the game.

 

[TMS]

@generic-vampire
F*#K chuck, I got a bruce lee zombie in my closet, he beat him once and will be him twice.
Anything serious to say about the post!
No!
Then sit on a finger!

Yeah, what's that all about, Snowblood? Assuming that your reply to Generic wasn't in humor (and that can be hard to properly get across in text, granted), everybody here has the freedom to post disagreements as they see fit without being insulted back.

 

[snowblood]

So then, a general 2k force for all comers and all scenarios,
1 big block of skellies say 40-50 models
Or
2 small blacks say 25 models

Then what?
Combat vamp with tomb blade
Caster vamp with forbidden lore, what lore?
Metal for the saves?
Beast for the S+T buff
Vamps for the raising
Light for the 10 WS+I
What is the opinion of my vampy players.

 

[Bravo_10]

If you're insistent on taking Skeletons, you NEED the Helm of Commandment. Their WS is just too low without it (on-par with Skavenslaves? Really, GW? Come on!). I also like the Lore of Shadows for Okkam's Mindrazor. If your Skeleton block is within the General's LD-bubble, then they will be S10 (it makes their strength equal to their LD). But for generic Strength and Toughness buffs, Beasts is tops. They have several low-power buffs that can put your Skeletons on a level with a GG block, sans Killing Blow, of course.

The combat Vamp with the Tomb Blade is also nice for keeping them alive, but he won't bail out your Skellies on his own. Any wounds suffered in combat still count towards CR, regardless of whether or not you raise them back with your TBlade.

Bottom line: if you're going to use Skellies, you are committing yourself to living and dying by the Magic Phase. Take a caster lord with MotBA, and some supporting caster vamps with cool Forbidden Lores (like that Lore of Metal armor thing, which actually sounds really nice). It's possible to pull off a Combat Lord with them, but I wouldn't try it. Given the right buffs, Skeletons become better than Ghouls because of the Magic Banners/Static CR/Musical reforms. But they need to be powered-up...badly...*grumble*-WS2-*grumble* :swear:

 

[Forge]

So then, a general 2k force for all comers and all scenarios,
1 big block of skellies say 40-50 models
Or
2 small blacks say 25 models

Then what?
Combat vamp with tomb blade
Caster vamp with forbidden lore, what lore?
Metal for the saves?
Beast for the S+T buff
Vamps for the raising
Light for the 10 WS+I
What is the opinion of my vampy players.

someones smoking crack :tongue:

 

[bored1]

This thought annoys me. Do I (or most others, I would presume) care what you take in a list? Of course not. If you're bringing stuff for flavor, go for it. If you believe something to be more effective, use it.

But when you post your list on a forum and ask for feedback, I take it to generally mean feedback regarding effectiveness. Ghouls are empirically better in most every role vs any other VC core (I think the math shows a couple cases where skellies are better). So, when I (or anyone else) suggest ghouls in place of zombies, or even skeletons, instead of being offended, you could look at the suggestions and think: "Gee, well ghouls are better, but I really like my skeletons so I'm going to leave them in for now." But if you lose a bunch of games and come back and say I don't know what I'm doing wrong...well perhaps you need to be more openminded.

That said, I'm using skeletons. I converted a bunch, and I want to use them. But I know they are not as good.