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Zombies - The new Core of choice?

Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
629
#1
just wonderin ghow many of us, considering the points reduction and now the S3 and T3 will be using these units alot more?

Unit of 50 zombies @ 150 points?

The allways strike last rule isnt a problem for me as i used to use lore of light for the wepaon skill 10 and initiative buff. combine this with the asf spells buff from cart then my zombies were efficient.

until i know if forbidden lore is lore master or not then will determine if i can use this tactic with the new book but I will proberly still use anyways with a good chara in the front, proberly kemmler or wraiths
 

Grish

Liche
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Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#2
Plus you can give a unit of these guys regen. I hope they retain the dealing of hits; it was nice and fluffy, although it never actually worked.

I wouldn't doubt if they will be a core unit. Zombies are one of the most popular aspects of the undead in general; more popular than Vampires if you discount 10 year old girls, or 20ish Disciples of Nagash. I had a thread devoted to GW not making use of the 'Zombie' as it is incredibly popular and they were being foolish by overlooking this.

Also, consider if zombies can be raised above starting, you could even have MSU of Zombies that get raised with AoE IoNs.
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
629
#3
the potential for them now appers to be better than ever.

I did have a unit of zombies, 100 zombies get charge by a giant.

It decided to eat a zombie, so i won the combat.

9d6 attacks later when it ran away i caused 1 wound with 30 hits

The chaos general took my dice as a trophy lol
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
238
#4
as zombies seem to be able to have a character join them and are S3 T3 i will definately be using them more, in fact i intend to increase my zombie count for larger units. out of the many changes we wanted for the new book useful zombies was high on my list of priorities xD
 

Grish

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Oct 11, 2007
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5,444
#5
A horde of cheap troops improved with a Vampire character and VHD? It'll be really good I imagine.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
238
#6
even if its just a necromancer or wraith/banshee that can join them they'll be better off than before, a vampire in with them would be excellent though. i may be able to compete with my friends humongous skaven horde units now finally and steal his steadfast bonus so he actually breaks once in a while after being defeated :devil2:
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,171
#7
Zombies are still garbage for all of the same reasons that skeletons are garbage. That said, they're a lot less garbage then they used to be. I could definitely see zombie bunkers as a thing, and if you're running the engine zombie tar pits look like they could turn out to be actual tar pits.

I wouldn't want to use them as an anvil, they'll still hemorrhage enough combat res that it's a bad idea, but skeletons as a unit are looking much iffier at the moment. If you don't run the engine then they still have the parry save, I guess? Shame the zombie models are so old. 30 zombies with musician & standard as a 100 point deployment drop? With invocation on a handful of low level necros affecting all units in range with each successful cast and taking the zombies above starting strength? affecting all units in range? Yeah, I could see running some of that. Sure, you'd still need some actual anchors (grave guard) and heavy hitters (maybe crypt horrors, for the mortis engine synergy?), the zombies really would just be deployment drops, tar pits, and a bunker, but still.
 

Grish

Liche
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Oct 11, 2007
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5,444
#8
Zombies will be the only thing that can negate Steadfast in our list as well. There's a place for that.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
238
#9
Grish said:
Zombies will be the only thing that can negate Steadfast in our list as well. There's a place for that.
also while zombies may take a bit of work to use, a themed army will be possible with them now without having to worry about losing the game just by taking them, dependent on your opponent of course
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
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Sep 23, 2009
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#10
I'm skeptical of zombies being used to negate steadfast. I still see them giving away too much combat res to win combat even with support, and if you lose combat it doesn't matter if the other guy's steadfast, but maybe I'm wrong.

If characters really can join them again, there's always walling off all or part of their frontage with wraiths.


Mostly I feel bad for skeletons. If you want something that can actually fight, well skeletons can't do that, you still need ghouls, even if they are twice as many points. But if you're just looking for fodder, zombies actually do that now, and do it cheaper. I'm not sure what exactly skeletons are supposed to be good for, but I suppose we'll see.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
238
#11
characters (some at least) can definately join zombies now, there is a picture in WD of a necromancer and a wraith standing in the front rank of a unit of zombies as well as another picture with one of the old metal necro's in a unit of them.
zombies may not work out as i'm hoping and still die too fast to be of much use, but with the stats and points changes to them i'm hoping they'll be decent enough. obviously against some armies (chaos) they will still crumble too fast but against low strength/low attacks armies they should hopefully be able to stand up to them. With a mortis engine nearby they will get a 6+ regen and some of our spells may be of use too, we'll have to wait and see but i dont think we should dismiss zombies as the same rubbish they are in the current book without at least testing them first.
 

Zhatan

Necromancer
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
801
#12
I think zombies will be useful now, at least as bunkers but also to negate steadfast when fighting against armies with mediocre troops like empire. In that case I don't think that too many will die to make us loose combat if we use them together with a more killy unit.
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
43
#13
I am really encouraged with the changes to zombies. I have experimented with a few different rules for zombies in the past (to use in campaigns to make them useful in 8th Ed) and found that a 5+ Regen save was way too overpowering for my opponents (the zombies tied up two units for an entire game), whereas a 6+ Regen had bareley any impact on the survivability of the unit. However, the hike in S & T has made Zombies more effective in combat against basic core troops, especially as Zombies will still be hitting most opponents on 4+. Okay, we will still die faster than our opponent, but now it will be much slower than before. If we combine this with cheap cost, ION AoE and the Mortis Engine (maybe two) i can see Zombies being much more useable.

I will see how things go with the new book, but with those very minor changes to the zombie rules i think that Phil Kelly may have just saved zombies from a fate worse than undeath :zombie:
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
#15
Nagashizzar said:
"especially as Zombies will still be hitting most opponents on 4+"

At WS 1 it gonna be 5+ most of the time
They were WS2 S3 T3 in 6th, who knows, maybe they'll have WS2 again!

Personally, I'm not sure what to take as core anymore. I know Ghouls are really expensive for what they do, and thus maybe Zombies and Skeletons will be core now? Seeing how they are cheap enough to reliably pin other models in place and prevent Steadfast, I think they'll be out primary units.

With that in mind, I see Ghouls phasing out all together. Skeletons and Zombies in big affordable blocks so they can soak up damage, tarpit and allow other units to hit hard from different angles. Ghouls will probably be a flanking unit, or a damage unit like they're supposed to be..
 

Adam_Barrow

Sleepless Knight
True Blood
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
3,071
#16
I'm seeing my 20 Dire Wolves finally coming off the shelf and hitting a table if the rumors are true and they count as Core finally. I'm guessing my 60-strong Ghoul horde is going to get broken up into a few smaller units, and maybe my 50 or so strong Skeletons (ten of which are the old Cursed Company from Dogs of War) can finally have a place. As for Zombies, I've got a 35 man unit that I'm hoping to have a place for. It might be time to start playing bigger battles. 2500 points isn't going to let me field everything I've managed to collect anymore.
 
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
55
#17
I suspect that our previous "core" choices will move increasingly towards tarpit functions, all of which will work better in this edition, and then rely on special choices to actually win combat.

I have to say, as much as the new book is not looking like my "oh-my-god-this-is-perfect-and-exactly-how-i-wanted-vcs-to-be" book, I'm actually really excited about this. I think the new special units speak fairly specifically to the ways that VCs find it difficult in 8th, and I'm really looking forward to discovering how it all works...
 

Zephyr

Master Necromancer
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Mar 3, 2008
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2,523
#18
I must confess I haven't used zombies at all for two editions. They might be worth it this time around though I'll definitely use other models. Maybe I'll create some more of my Bretonnian peasant zombies I had made for summoning purposes.

I seriously hate the old plastics. They were great when they came out first but are showing their age. Hopefully we will get a second wave with new ones with just as many options on the sprues.
I'm weird in that if I don't like the models I won't field them no matter how good their rules.
 

Narp

Zombie
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
38
#19
Isn't it odd that a 1pt reduction and T and S3 are actually very good, effective improvements and they're finally useful and they will once again appear on battlefields again.

Although, with an I of 1, it's debatable whether always strike last was actually required.
 

_Revan_

Black Knight
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
306
#20
Narp said:
Isn't it odd that a 1pt reduction and T and S3 are actually very good, effective improvements and they're finally useful and they will once again appear on battlefields again.

Although, with an I of 1, it's debatable whether always strike last was actually required.
I'm also very excited about the change (looking to gear towards Nechrarch Vampires myseld), I think the Always Strikes Last is to keep Zombies from going first with Vanhel's Danse, so that slow Zombies remain slow Zombies.

A small price to pay in my opinion, I'm all for it.
 

Voltaire

Master Necromancer
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Joined
Aug 15, 2007
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2,763
#21
I'm looking forward to them making a return to my field at the start of a battle. Give me a shambling horde of zombies and I'll take over the world, one brain at a time.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
629
#22
Voltaire said:
I'm looking forward to them making a return to my field at the start of a battle. Give me a shambling horde of zombies and I'll take over the world, one brain at a time.
Same here! Can't wait to field them!
 

N1AK

Vampire Count
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Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
1,252
#23
It's really too early to say if Zombies will become the optimal choice; my best guess is they're finally a valid option but no more.

Skeletons now provide acceptably priced static combat res (You can have 5x6 + command for ~180). Zombies can now tarpit low/mid-quality troops. Ghouls are the best for killing but if they remain the same except the price bump you pay a hell of a premium for it.

30 Ghouls: Ghast ~310
25 Skeletons: Command ~155 & 3 Blood Knights: ~150

I see myself spending the absolute minimum on core and using spec/rare/characters to do the lifting as normal.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#24
When I say that Zombies can negate Steadfast, I'm referring to troops that rely on being Steadfast, such as Skaven slaves (LD10 reroll w. BSB), Goblins, and other assorted Tarpits. Especially against Skaven and Goblins, I found I just could not chop through those units fast enough. They, and to a lesser extent, skeletons, are the only things that would have enough ranks to negates these giant blocks of immoveable troops.

I think what we will see is a combination of troops, each with a role to play. Zombies do not need to be fielded in a Horde formation to negate steadfast, so you could do 10x5 for 150pts, add in a Character, and hopefully generate enough CR to go through a Tarpit block if necessary (especially with a Combat character). Even with Skeletons I think that role gets somewhat expensive.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
238
#25
Grish said:
When I say that Zombies can negate Steadfast, I'm referring to troops that rely on being Steadfast, such as Skaven slaves (LD10 reroll w. BSB), Goblins, and other assorted Tarpits. Especially against Skaven and Goblins, I found I just could not chop through those units fast enough. They, and to a lesser extent, skeletons, are the only things that would have enough ranks to negates these giant blocks of immoveable troops.

I think what we will see is a combination of troops, each with a role to play. Zombies do not need to be fielded in a Horde formation to negate steadfast, so you could do 10x5 for 150pts, add in a Character, and hopefully generate enough CR to go through a Tarpit block if necessary (especially with a Combat character). Even with Skeletons I think that role gets somewhat expensive.
i'm very much looking forward to being able to negate steadfast, my main opponent is a skaven player and its rare that he breaks from combat, plus i like zombies in general, it always annoyed me in 7th that using zombies pretty much meant (or at least contributed to) my doom, once my wallet recovers a little i intend to increase my unit sizes for them
 
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