Best background: WHFB or WH40K

[Corien Sumatris]

Yeah, the point of 40k is that there is a specific darkness lurking around every corner. Everyone has some dark secret to hide. But the entire purpose of the mindset is conquest and forced obediance. I mean, there is no way to attempt to rationalize a mistake or argue an opinion. For instance, my favorite character in all of the GW lore is Lugft Huron, Chapter Master of the Astral Claws. He went on a crusade for the Emperor and many soldiers willingly gave their lives for this cause. Huron then requested the use of his chapters geneseed to replenish the soldiers lost, and his request was denied. "Victory at all costs", Huron did indeed disobey a direct order, yet because of that disobedience he ended up securing the Badab system. Now, the Administratum did not say "Oh shoot, you were right, good call, thanks for taking over this incredibly strategic area", They instead declared war against the malestrom warders (Astral Claws, Mantis Warriors, Lemetors, and Exeutioners). Huron didn't declare war against the Imperium, he didn't side with chaos, or the eldar, he didn't give up ground or allow the Xenos to succeed in driving him back, he made headway and won! Now for that the Imperium decided to destroy him and all of the good work that he had done. Huron fought back because he knew that what he did was right and the Imperium betrayed him.

Who is the good guy? Who is it that is clearly in the wrong here? In 40k everything is grey, everything is dark. There is no one to cheer for, no one to assume as good, and no one to assume as evil (Aside from chaos, those guys are bad news).

Nids - Hungry, not evil in nature, just going off of basic instincts
Orks - Love to fight, not necessarily destroy, but they love combat, not too different from our beloved marines
Eldar - Not evil, not good, they do what they can to preserve their current way of life
Dark Eldar - Live in darkness and because of their society they have a specific mindset that drives them to do what they have to do to live
Necros - I'm not a morning person, If I was asleep for ... 40,000 years then someone woke me up I'd probably be a bit pissy too
Tau - They're trying to help everyone but because the Imperium has decided that everything that they believe must be the right thing then the Tau are wrong
Squats - Were Imperium, then the Imperium decided that they were Xenos and killed them all
The Imperium of Man - Killing everything because they see everything else as a threat and it must be destroyed.

There just is no way to say that there is Order VS Chaos in 40k. I mean there are a ton of really cool stories for sure! I'm not saying I don't like the fluff of 40k, I like it a lot, I just think that as a whole after reading many books and stories all that it has done is make me hate every army instead of just the evil ones. Where in fantasy, you don't get that broad spectrum hatred.

 

[Get of W'soran]

That's actually why I like the 40K, the fact every faction is ultimately evil in some fashion.

Mind you I wouldn't mind if the Imperium realised it would benefit them to align with some of the less a-hole factions. Although they do have histories of working with other factions e.g. diplomatic relations with Tau after the ceasefire as per the Caphias Cain novels.

 

[Shareya]

Dark Eldar are pretty evil/sinister. I mean they ...are really nasty and where even before the Fall

 

[El Syf]

I would say fantasy has the best background apart from the Horus Heresy side of 40k.
You have one world which is oozing with races, factions and outlooks.
And erm fantasy does have vampires :konrad:

 

[Ghouly]

and Orks do tend to blowup/burn down everything in sight when their fighting the love destruction their just not malicious about it

 

[Corien Sumatris]

@GoW: Yeah, I see where you're coming from, and I feel good liking the Astral Claws because I see them as making the right decision. I just see it as there are so many sides to the story that it's hard to feel like you're getting facts (fictional facts). I mean, sure, you can get ideas, but after reading through an army book or a novel I never really feel like I get the whole story. It may simply be because the universe is much larger than the fantasy world, or just that the books are written to portray 1 side as the "good guys" in the novel thus having a bias feeling throughout the book. Fantasy you know that Skaven are evil, and when you read a book relating to skaven, you never go away from it saying "Yeah take that you evil empire!"

@Shareya: Okay, yeah, I guess that one is a bit far-fetched. They are pretty bad. The mini story about the guardsmen without arms and heads walking the streets! So cool!

@El Syf: Yeah! 40k doesn't have vampires! Well the have Nightlords and Blood Angels, but they don't have Lahmians!!

@Ghouly: Right! They just like to break stuff! No rhyme or reason, just generally mess things up!

 

[Irisado]

A brief point which caught my eye was the idea that there were no limits to inventing background in 40K. That's not true. If you follow the background, there are limits to what you can create or write if you want to retain any degree of plausibility . There are, therefore, constraints, as is the case with Fantasy's background.

It's also interesting to note that the Fantasy setting is in as much of a constant state of war as the 40K setting. Perhaps the reason why this is less obvious is skirmishes can be on a much smaller scale in Fantasy, involving just small regions; whereas much of what is written in 40K literature revolves around battles raging across planets, systems, and even galaxies. The description 'in the darkness of the future there is only war' does little to dispel that perception, but it's not the case that there is constant conflict everywhere in the 40K universe, it just feels like there is.

 

[Dimreapa]

I've got a lot of bias here (but hey, here's a Fantasy or 40k question on a forum dedicated to a fantasy faction!), but for me (at least for the moment, until Ward screws it up), the primary deciding factor is that Orks are the real break out aspect of virtually everything to do with GW.

Especially their current incarnation. They're a lot more deep than is usually given credit, and if Orks and 40k as a whole lose out, it is because many factions can be horrendously misunderstood, and none more than Orks. But if you ask yourself who will win in the 40k setting, who will achieve their aims, you can argue it's a trick question. The Orks already have. They want a universe of only war, nothing but scraps. They have one.

As much as I kind of like fantasy, it is largely a Tolkein-esque setting. It has a fair bit going for it, but 40k plays with every single trope, and fantasy plays a lot of them straight. I'm not really sure on the Black Library argument, although I'm not one to judge, I've hardly read any, but fantasy produced the Malus Darkblade novels, which consists largely of Abnett's Marty Stu being evilly awesome. The novelty wears off after 6 chapters.

I for one will agree that the Horus Heresy is excellent background, but it isn't the only selling point of 40k. That's selling it stupidly short. I also like the grey and grey morality. Whilst I don't think it's because it's realistic (I word I loathe in discussions of fiction), but I do like the fact that factions are largely evil and good from their own viewpoint. The shifting, contextually-sensitive viewpoints give 40k a depth I don't really find so often in fantasy. Most depictions are pretty obvious.

Besides, all factions can be the bad guy, but if you look at individuals in most of the factions, you'll find "good guys" and "bad guys". To say no faction can be a good guy is true, but a single faction in one contextual instance will act wholly in the desire to do good. Even Chaos (Cypher, for instance).

Do Nids lack depth? I disagree. That would be ignoring the Genestealers, who are particularly interesting. If you want a grand scheme to the hymn sheet the Nids are reading from (the OMNOMNICON), then how about some wild speculation? Are the Nids the latest creation of the Old Ones? Designed to form a galactic reset in order to remove Chaos from every known universe? Now they're interesting, I'd say.


I will grant that lately, I'm less confident saying 40k wins hands down, and that's largely because Ward has been systematically RUINING the whole :swear: setting with his absolute abomination that only a fool dares call prose. He can almost do it for fantasy I see. Good. Keep the git.

Anyway, for now, my vote's with 40k. Just.

EDIT: Oh, and 40k has at least one Vampire in it: Karloth Valois.

 

[Pridster]

tbf i would say that just about all of the blood drinkers and knights of blood and a few other blood angels are vampiric in nature makes sense why no one in the galaxy wants there help unless they are gonna get wiped its interesting because blood angels are eseentially on a majority exactly like blood knights in fantasy got a curse dealing with it trying to keep honour some just fail

 

[Get of W'soran]

I will grant that lately, I'm less confident saying 40k wins hands down, and that's largely because Ward has been systematically RUINING the whole :swear: setting with his absolute abomination that only a fool dares call prose. He can almost do it for fantasy I see. Good. Keep the git.

I agree with your entire post but the Nerd in me Rages at the reminder of the Canon Catastrophe that is Ward.

*sigh* Khornate Knights

 

[Blutsauger]

I find that the WHFB stuff is much more cliched and played out. I don't like Vampire Counts because of the background GW invented, I like them because of the good work done by authors and film-makers over the last century or so. Vampires and ghosts and stuff is just cool.

The 40K stuff is also played out, but they've got a much bigger sand box for me to play in, which makes it much easier to ignore the HURR DURR MEHRINES!

The problem I have is that if a person is even remotely well read, then it's impossible to consider any of the GW stuff really good. Well, actually I'll make an exception Aaron Dembski-Bowden. His stuff is quite readable. The Horus Heresy stuff I really dislike. I mean, I only read like the first six or seven books, and gave them up after that when I realised they were going to milk the story arc forever without actually concluding it.

 

[Menkeroth]

WH40k fluff is more original (unique in fact), but now... mmm.... putting Horus Heresy aside, quite good, dark, grim and bloody. Not without flaws, however - Necrons, for example. But all in all - quite enjoyable. Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Orkz... a lot of.

WHFB is more cliched, yes, but has its unique features as well, and if to choose... being a 40k player I must admit WHFB fluff is far better made and practically without idiotic features like in 40k. We'll see what the 9th edition will bring, though.