WHFB - 6th The Asp Bow

[Lord Fear]

Looking at this lil Lahmian item, the wording struck me as a little odd... "Hits are resolved at Strength 4 and count as Poisoned Attacks."

Now, does this mean all hits are to be treated like a poison hit, i.e. as if you've rolled a 6 to hit and so have wounded automatically? Or is it just poor wording which means it uses the rules for poison?

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

Its poorly worded. If you roll a 6 to hit the attack is poisonous, otherwise the strength of the bow is 4.

 

[Skaramak von Carstein]

Or is it just poor wording which means it uses the rules for poison?

Strenght 4, with poison.

 

[darknesseternal]

It's poorly worded as the others have said.

I'm more concerned that you were looking at this item. Looking at it, in terms of consideration of use? Or just curiousity?

For it's points, and for what it can do, it is nigh on useless. Even the most fluff committed Lahmian player would overlook it.. one day, I would like to take it, for fun.. but it would only be for a lark.

 

[Master Vampire]

For it's points, and for what it can do, it is nigh on useless. Even the most fluff committed Lahmian player would overlook it.. one day, I would like to take it, for fun.. but it would only be for a lark.

Apparantly the guy in the link in this topic seems to think otherwise:

https://www.vampirecounts.net/showthread.php?tid=108

He says it always earns it points back, just because it can target vulnerable characters/models (like BSB's, mages, Jezzails, etc)

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

The Bow is easily one of the best options available to the Vampires. The whole concept of it is very fluffy and its quite easily the best way for a Lahmian to rack up kills.

 

[darknesseternal]

But it is only a single strength 4 hit, and then you have to wound.

For 30 pts.

And you take -1 to hit if you choose to use the special ability it bestows of being able to pick out a character in a unit.

I read the link you are refering to.. I would love to both come up against the armies he has faced (obviously ones that don't have much of an armour save), plus have his dice at the same time.

To take the bow, you are looking at giving up the sword of might/battle, and your ward save in quickblood if you are talking about a count/lady.

No, sorry Vol. Best way for a Lahmian to rack up kills is innocence lost/quickblood/sword of might/battle/spell familar/black periapt/beguile.

The bow is very fluffy, yes. But in most cases an over priced item that will not win back the pts spent, and you will pay for taking it and not other options on your vamps.

 

[FatOlaf]

I like it!

 

[Lord Firmshaft]

Also think of it this way early on without the champion to babysit in combat you can start rattling the mages/bsbs forcing them out of thier units to hid behind them and then you can trap them with your bats and wolves. I think thats what the guy was on about when he was talking about synergy. Its how the army as a whole works and this weapon is just one part of it.

Besides you wouldnt want those delicate little fingers of yours getting all dirty would you?

Stuff like weapon teams dont suffer the -1 to hit in a unit though and a vamps BS isnt that poor

 

[Count Homogenised]

I'm a fluffy Lahmian and I plan to use it :mrgreen:

It seems to suit the theme of the army well, it has the potential to take out a character (T3 elfs look out), it makes use of the otherwise wasted BS of a vampire, and one of the DOW hobgoblin quiver/bows fits quite nicely on to the hip of the dismounted Lahmian with the snake around her arm.

It's all about the figures looking cool man :lol: - anybody can take a souped-up Blood Dragon (and they usually do )

 

[Draconis]

I play Lahmians.

Lahmians and Solely Lahmians. My Army has most of my opponents going meh, until the veritable storm that is Vadania crashes into their front lines and starts slaughtering everything that even looks at her cross eyed.

Usually I take Crown of the Damned, Innocence Lost, Sword of Might, and Spell Familiar. Sometimes I change things up for the Warrior Familiar. I WOULD take the Talon of Death, but the problem is that it is only at the end of OUR movement phase, which sucks.

This creature, is SOMETHING TO FEAR. Striking first into the rank and file units with 5 attacks at str 6, especially if Hellish Vigour gets off, is BLISS.

I usually combine her with my unit of Grave guard, and direct my armies from there. Banner of the Barrows on my Grave Guard, the entire unit is very strong and very powerful. Especially on the charge. I always go armor save as well over damage, so alot of players have to deal with my skeletons having a 4+ Armor save and basically, a very resilient front battle line.


That having been said, I realize alot of VC players view the Asp Bow as something as being kinda meh, myself included. However, something hit me just now which gave me a smile.

Mage Hunting.

Seriously, how often are opposing mages the bane of us? How often do their dispel dice etc cause us absolute grief? Yes, the range on the bow is kinda blegh, 24 inches if I remember correctly, but still....we can SINGLE OUT MAGES in a unit.

How often do mages take protective items? Ward Saves? Usually if it's a level 2 Mage...or even 1.....they MIGHT have power stones or dispel scrolls on them...but that's it.

Think about this. We as VC really don't have to march if we want to. We can storm the opponent with Magic Dice in the Magic Phase, let zombies tie them up, and let them slowly come to us. We can wait for them to open up holes in their phalanx, or different deployments. And then we can slowly, and surgically, pick this apart without mercy.

The Asp bow contributes to this. Mage hunting. Perfect. We aid the one almighty strength of our army by taking out the opposing magic users. And most cannot heal themselves whatsoever.

My Advice? Give it to a thrall. And watch the fun be unleashed. Or, give it to the Lady, and just sit back and wait for the enemy to screw up before swamping them in a mud pit of zombies as your faster units flank and rear charge them.

All while the lady whistles and files her nails.



Draconis

(Player of the only known High Elf Lahmian to live on Ulthuan in secrecy. Take that you dirty pointy eared arrogant gits!)

 

[Count Homogenised]

I have been on the recieving end of a mage hunting Hochland Rifle (when you are playing Chaos Dwarfs the best you can do for your mage is a 6+ ward save ) and I am guessing that the Asp Bow (as Draconis said) would be just as good for popping off mages

 

[darknesseternal]

Besides you wouldnt want those delicate little fingers of yours getting all dirty would you?

Stuff like weapon teams dont suffer the -1 to hit in a unit though and a vamps BS isnt that poor

Of course I wouldn't! It's enough just trying to get the blood stains out of my hands and dress after I have ripped some poor unfortunate fool's throat out..

The -1 to hit with the asp bow applies for everything. Doesn't matter if it is a weapon team you are aiming at, or a mage in a unit, it is still -1 to hit (read the description of the asp bow).

As for others saying that they think it is a great item, and what they can do with it.. tell me. How many times have you actually taken the asp bow in a list?

Forgive me, but I'm curious. I have rarely, and I mean rarely as in maybe 2 - 3 times, ever seen an asp bow in a Lahmian army list. And I would love to hear a report on how you used it in a battle, and how many wounds you inflicted with it and how it helped you to win the battle, as opposed to theorising what you could do with it. Theory is all well and good. I want to see and hear actual reports of where you have used it effectively in a battle, or have seen it used really well. All you veterens out there, how many of you have ever heard of the asp bow being used, and be honest about it.

When I first saw the asp bow as an option, I loved the fact that there was an item solely for Lahmians. When I had a look at it, I thought, 'not bad, you might get lucky with it'. But then when I looked at the pts allowance of items/bloodline powers for thralls/countesses/ladies, and the other items/weapons/bloodline powers you could also take, there was nothing about the asp bow that said it was a better choice than the other options. In fact, the other options, imo are better choices than the asp bow.

So convince me. Tell me why the asp bow is a better option. I'd love to hear why.

ps. one of these days, I am actually going to take the asp bow for fun and just to see how it does, as it is such a fluffy item. And hey, it might surprise me. But I will leave that for a casual game where no huge bragging rights are at stake!

 

[Lord Fear]

I'm more concerned that you were looking at this item. Looking at it, in terms of consideration of use? Or just curiousity?

Well looking at the Lahmian analysis on another forum- however, you are correct when you pan the Asp Bow, it is nigh on useless. I would never waste my Count/ Lord's magic weapon slot on a mere bow, and to put it on a Thrall is a complete waste of time- they only have BS4. Combine with a move/ long range penalty -1, picking out -1 you're going to need 5+ to hit, so chances are you can shoot it every turn of the battle and you could still fail to kill a mage hidden in a unit.

That's partly why I wondered if it was how I interpreted it as- all hits instantly wound, resolved at S4. Then it'd still be pretty overpriced, but quite nice.

(You can have fun rules lawyering the Lahmian stuff- according to the rules for Seduction powers, the Lahmian Vampire must use it in combat against a model in base contact- so if her unit's in combat but she is out of combat for some reason like a flank charge, she must therefore use the ability on one of her friendly troops! Fortunately no-one would ever play it like that, I hope )

 

[Draconis]

Well looking at the Lahmian analysis on another forum- however, you are correct when you pan the Asp Bow, it is nigh on useless. I would never waste my Count/ Lord's magic weapon slot on a mere bow, and to put it on a Thrall is a complete waste of time- they only have BS4. Combine with a move/ long range penalty -1, picking out -1 you're going to need 5+ to hit, so chances are you can shoot it every turn of the battle and you could still fail to kill a mage hidden in a unit.

That's partly why I wondered if it was how I interpreted it as- all hits instantly wound, resolved at S4. Then it'd still be pretty overpriced, but quite nice.

(You can have fun rules lawyering the Lahmian stuff- according to the rules for Seduction powers, the Lahmian Vampire must use it in combat against a model in base contact- so if her unit's in combat but she is out of combat for some reason like a flank charge, she must therefore use the ability on one of her friendly troops! Fortunately no-one would ever play it like that, I hope )

This wouldn't affect much anyways, as all of our units are immune to psychology, and thusly immune to our Lahmian mistresses effects.

But no...it wouldn't target friendly units. I think the reason I listed above is the main reason why no one has ever rules lawyered it.

Still, I have to agree on the asp bow. Overall it's pretty worthless, and as a Straight Lahmian player, I was pretty much downright pissed when I found out we got such a crap weapon, especially since we have two options only for combat. Magic Weapon...or use our claws.

Seriously...WTF prevents a Female Vampire of the Lahmian bloodline from using a NORMAL Weapon? What moron (yes, I know, Alessio, mastermind behind the uber cheese skaven book) thought that would even be Logical!?!?

(You can tell just HOW much GW loves Blood Dragons over EVERY other bloodline)

This is why I have high hopes for the rumors of the "Blood line power" Pool that you spend points on, instead of being restricted to what you can do just based on fluff that you like, which to me is inane.

Honestly, the Lahmian powers aren't that bad by themselves. It's just when you stack up the insane points cost for them that they become relatively useless.

1 selected model Can't attack me....
1 model cannot attack in that combat phase....
1 Model cannot attack in that phase and all attacks hit model auto...
1 Model is taken control by me and I have him attack his own unit...

WAAAAYYYY too many points to force that many leadership checks for what may be something utterly useless.

and then there's Quickblood, which should be alot cheaper by 5 points or more...and about the only power worth taking...innocence lost. We all know that one.


As stated: Lahmians are nice, and very deadly. But their points are better invested in innocence lost, crown, and then a weapon and other item. Plain and simple.

 

[Lord Fear]

Ah yes, I hadn't realised that the seduction powers don't work against models that are ItP, which means they can't affect any unit she joins. I guess Alessio was just trying to avoid the no-brainer option of a strikes-first-with-great-weapon Vampire Countess (especially the idea of several in the same army), but he could have just said Thralls are -1S instead or something. Still, they're a great bloodline... in the right hands.

 

[Master Vampire]

Inevitably I read the rules of the Asp Bow again, but I didn't read anything regarding how many shots are fired per turn. Normally bows can be shot once per turn, but in the description it reads 'hits are resolved at...'. Is it then right for me to assume the Lahmian can shoot as many times as her stats allow?

 

[Lord Fear]

No way! "Hits" refers to all hits ever made by the bow, throughout every battle.

 

[darknesseternal]

Yeah it is definitely only a single shot per turn with the asp bow.

The asp bow in itself, is not a completely useless or terrible item; it does allow you to pick out characters in units and war machine crew and chariots etc. It does count as a poison attack, and characters/champions do not benefit from the 'look out sir' roll against it, and the fluff aspect of it is great.

What does it in for me is that it costs 30 pts.

If it was 25 pts, I'd more inclined to consider taking it. The reason for this, is innocence lost is THE no brainer bloodline power to always take. You really shouldn't leave home without it. It is the Lahmian's greatest strength. I've heard people argue before that with a Lahmian's high initiative, you can get away without having it ~ just avoid getting charged. Right. Well I for one do not want to risk the chance of being charged, and not being able to strike first. The way to keep your Lahmians alive, is to kill everything in base to base with it so they cannot direct any attacks back and take advantage of the lack of an AS. To do that, you need to strike first in all occasions (though if the rumoured HE changes about their special 'always strikes first' rule are true, then the Lahmians will be in even worse shape when it comes to facing up against HE, with it being a roll off each time). I also don't want to be having to be playing my game in a defensive/reactionary way, or in an overly aggressive way to ensure that I am not charged.

The point is, Innocence Lost, which imo is a must have, is 25 pts. Thralls have a 50 pt allowance. I can't take the asp bow, and have my thrall have innocence lost as well. So that doesn't work. I like to have my thrall have sword of battle, so it has that extra attack to help keep it alive. On my countess/lady, I take the attitude of that I need to take everything that I can to ensure her survivability. She will be my general after all, and if I lose her, my army is dust (pardon the pun ). So again Innocence Lost. She needs a ward save to make up somewhat for the lack of the AS, so I usually take Quickblood. I am intrigued by Draconis's kit though that involves taking the Crown of the Damed. I really don't want my general stupid, but a 4+ ward save would be even better. It is definitely something to try out I think and just see how it plays for me and goes. Then I like to give her sword of might to help make sure what she hits, stays dead. I take a magic item like a spell familar or the black periapt to help strengthen the magic phase, and help the army overall. With the left over pts, it's usually then Beguile. It won't work most of the time, and there are alot of ITP out there, but it is only 10 pts, and it is fluffy, and sometimes, it does work. Nothing more fun than having a champion/character trying to attack you and just them standing there with a doe eyed look on their face as you slaughter them

So again, spending 30 pts on the asp bow, I just don't have the pts there to spend on something that I don't think is really going to be able to do much. It still suffers all the normal shooting penalities except the -1 for shooting at a single mini, but then it has it's own -1 for it's special ability anyways. And she is going to be moving whilst she uses it (I am NOT having my thrall/countess/lady standing still somewhere just to avoid the -1 for moving), and if I do get lucky and get a hit, I then still have to wound, and then my opponent has to fail their AS if they have one. If I did get a wound against a character, you can be sure I wouldn't be given a second opportunity to get another one on that character, unless my opponent was an idiot. So basically, for the pts cost weighed up for what it can actually do and compared against the other options available, the asp bow just never gets a look in.

 

[Lord Fear]

Yup, that's the long and short of it. 30 points is a stupid amount- the best things to combine it with are Innocence Lost or Transfix which are both 25 points. So there's nothing in the army that benefits from taking it (Unless you're really paranoid and have taken a Lord-level character and intend to keep them out of battle the entire game). I just use the Cursed Book on the Thrall, which works brilliantly, especially for protecting the Queen.

 

[Draconis]

Nice post darknesseternal.


The usual kitting out for Vadania goes like this.

Sword of Might
Crown of the Damned
Innocence Lost
Spell Familiar

Very rarely, and I do mean VERY Rarely, do I fail my stupidity check on a leadership of 10. the 4+ ward save is worth it to me. Far far far more worth it then quickblood. If quickblood was cheaper, I'd take that. But since it is too expensive IMO, I take the Crown of the Damned.

I USED to have a build where I had some weapon, I forget which, and the Warrior Familiar. It basically allowed me to whip out 6 Str 5 hits no matter what I did. I think I may have used biting blade or nothing at all, I forget which. Regardless, it was also a build that worked for me.

People underestimate Lahmian players, and I personally think that is one of our greatest strengths to be honest. They don't expect a hellstorm of fury from a Lahmian. Ever.

 

[Skaramak von Carstein]

Not an item I have really considered, but good arguements all around. I would agree that 30 points is a little expensive - maybe it will come down a little in the changes.

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

I believe this item would really come into its own in smaller games such as Border Patrol where it comes as a means of really helping to defeat the single lone enemy characters and champions which can prove to be a hassle as such a small level.