There are some really nice theories on this. I also believe that Grave Guard have quite high intelligence (Compared to other undead creatures) I wanted to raise the idea that certain creatures, bound to will of a vampire, gain a great deal more intelligence due to the guiding hand of thier masters or the amount of Dark magic used to bind spirits to the dead. Konrad Von Carstien almost had Count Helmut, a zombie under his control, elected as emperor. I assume it takes more a great deal more dark magic to raise a formidable fighting Wight than a slavering zombie and that could mean that they have higher intelligence.
Undead Intelligence?
- Thread starter Tezdal
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Montesque
Ghoul
That makes a good deal of sense, though I think your example is a little flawed. Firstly, Konrad could hardly use necromancy at all, so Helmut had to have been resurrected by one of his necromancers, whose skill levels we're not really privy to. Secondly, the reason Helmut was discovered is that he never spoke, so we can't really be sure of his intelligence. This indicates to me that while the level of dark magic used DOES almost certainly have an impact on the intelligence of the resulting undead, there may very well be an upper limit for each type.
For instance, no matter how much dark energy you pump into a zombie, if you create it as a zombie, it will never be as intelligent as a wight or wight king.
For instance, no matter how much dark energy you pump into a zombie, if you create it as a zombie, it will never be as intelligent as a wight or wight king.
As far as the book goes, it says they simply have no will/ambition (this is said about the more mundane undead like skellies and zombies) therefore I think they have intelligence. For example a skeleton might be found writing the square root of pi in the dirt by the road but should a runaway cart come squealing by he simply wouldn't be bothered to move out of the way, but then that might beg the question of why a skeleton would be writing pi in the first place. So we should just forget about the whole thing and go out for cake.
Montesque
Ghoul
I would much rather eat a pi than write it, personally...of course a skeleton, having no stomach...
theonetruedonut
Zombie
I concur with Montesque's take on wight intelligence. It makes sense. Zombies, Skeletons and other "low functioning" undead are just capable of performing simple tasks. march. turn. charge. kill. however, Wraiths and Spirits are a different story.
A wraith is an ancient sorcerer who's strength of will allowed them to harness the undivided winds of magic. these winds preserved the sorceror's spirit and consciousness, but not their body. so, in my opinion, wraiths & banshees are "high-functioning" undead, with powerful wills and lingering souls, just no body to keep it in. they hang around a place familiar to them, preying on those that come by, until a vampire draws the wraith out and enslave it. they don't like this, and try to escape. this is representsd by crumble tests, i.e. if the general dies, the enchantment binding the wraith to the Vampire's will dissipates, alowing them to return to their lair.
Spirits are different. a spirit is a dead person's soul that had moved on into the afterlife and was called back by a necromancer or vampire, or was prevented from doing so by a powerful cremaining connection to the world of the living, or "unfinished business". these spirits are semi-inteligent, feeling emotions such as pain and loss, but lacking the cognition to process these emotions. so they are attracted to strong sources of emotion, like moths to a flame, trying to get at all of that delicious life force and emotions, not realising or not caring that their actions kill people.
A wraith is an ancient sorcerer who's strength of will allowed them to harness the undivided winds of magic. these winds preserved the sorceror's spirit and consciousness, but not their body. so, in my opinion, wraiths & banshees are "high-functioning" undead, with powerful wills and lingering souls, just no body to keep it in. they hang around a place familiar to them, preying on those that come by, until a vampire draws the wraith out and enslave it. they don't like this, and try to escape. this is representsd by crumble tests, i.e. if the general dies, the enchantment binding the wraith to the Vampire's will dissipates, alowing them to return to their lair.
Spirits are different. a spirit is a dead person's soul that had moved on into the afterlife and was called back by a necromancer or vampire, or was prevented from doing so by a powerful cremaining connection to the world of the living, or "unfinished business". these spirits are semi-inteligent, feeling emotions such as pain and loss, but lacking the cognition to process these emotions. so they are attracted to strong sources of emotion, like moths to a flame, trying to get at all of that delicious life force and emotions, not realising or not caring that their actions kill people.
Gladius Rex
Wight King
I have always considered undead to be as intelligent as their Ld Score reflects. Konrad was noted as being "A bat short of a Belfry" noting his irrational mindset and to reflect that, he has no wizard level and 1 lower leadership score than a standard Thrall. Meanwhile you have wight kings with Ld 9. I think this is to reflect their retained intellect from days of being warrior kings who ruled land and lead troops in battle.
I think some of the lore behind WKs comes from the notion that at one point the VC and TKs were all one army and alot of Tomb Kings involves a more Egyptian style theme, where "kings" or "Pharohs" would bury themselves entombed with all manner of things to take into the next life... a talisman to retain intellect is then not so far fetched. Unfortunately somewhere along the line, GW decided to split the two into seperate armies and make VC more your standard "Transylvannian" vampire army. But instead of rewriting some of the lore, they left tidbits of that sort of stuff intact.
and while i do agree that the Necromancer or Vampire in question is not puppeting "every little jab" that is true... until you take the Helm of Command.... then im pretty sure he IS actually controlling every thrust and jab, thus the hike in WS.
I think some of the lore behind WKs comes from the notion that at one point the VC and TKs were all one army and alot of Tomb Kings involves a more Egyptian style theme, where "kings" or "Pharohs" would bury themselves entombed with all manner of things to take into the next life... a talisman to retain intellect is then not so far fetched. Unfortunately somewhere along the line, GW decided to split the two into seperate armies and make VC more your standard "Transylvannian" vampire army. But instead of rewriting some of the lore, they left tidbits of that sort of stuff intact.
and while i do agree that the Necromancer or Vampire in question is not puppeting "every little jab" that is true... until you take the Helm of Command.... then im pretty sure he IS actually controlling every thrust and jab, thus the hike in WS.
In a quick summary, undead do not learn and do not think for themselves. They're alive through magic and effectively only pushed around by the Vampire/necromancer overlord. Whatever intelligence they appears to possess are just vague memories of their past. Infact, you can sum up the intelligence as reflecting upon the strength of their memory.
Zombies, skeletons and wights are not intelligent, at all. The magic animating potency vary and thus the wight seem to be smarter because the magic allows it to have better image of their previous life(a life where it was also an elite warrior).
Spirits are different but not by much. They're tied just as much to what they remember from their past life but their undeath is reversed. They're not animated, they're spirits who haven't crossed over, for one reason or another. Again, I think their intelligence(and sentience) is the wrong way to look at it. They're shackled to their past, what they remember and cannot escape from it. Wraith and Banshee do seem to have a manner of sentience though as they're said to fear to cross over.
In short, bar the obvious exceptions, the undead are unchanging. The Necarch's speak of an undead paradise where nothing grows nothing dies, just an unchanging everlasting undead peace. There are of course exceptions here and there but generally I tend to regard undead intelligence in this manner;
1. The potency of magic used to animate them/draw them towards you. For example, the Blood Kiss transfer much, if not all, of the recipients mind into undeath.
2. The innate magic(this includes memories, resilience and so on). Wight blades, burial ceremonies/methods, wards, charms, etc etc.
3. The previous life. Which could be translated into 'strength of spirit'.
Due to these three aspects I think undeath intelligence and sentience can vary... Within reasonable levels of course.
Zombies, skeletons and wights are not intelligent, at all. The magic animating potency vary and thus the wight seem to be smarter because the magic allows it to have better image of their previous life(a life where it was also an elite warrior).
Spirits are different but not by much. They're tied just as much to what they remember from their past life but their undeath is reversed. They're not animated, they're spirits who haven't crossed over, for one reason or another. Again, I think their intelligence(and sentience) is the wrong way to look at it. They're shackled to their past, what they remember and cannot escape from it. Wraith and Banshee do seem to have a manner of sentience though as they're said to fear to cross over.
In short, bar the obvious exceptions, the undead are unchanging. The Necarch's speak of an undead paradise where nothing grows nothing dies, just an unchanging everlasting undead peace. There are of course exceptions here and there but generally I tend to regard undead intelligence in this manner;
1. The potency of magic used to animate them/draw them towards you. For example, the Blood Kiss transfer much, if not all, of the recipients mind into undeath.
2. The innate magic(this includes memories, resilience and so on). Wight blades, burial ceremonies/methods, wards, charms, etc etc.
3. The previous life. Which could be translated into 'strength of spirit'.
Due to these three aspects I think undeath intelligence and sentience can vary... Within reasonable levels of course.