VC 40K – Heavy Unit Discussion: Dreadnought

[Disciple of Nagash]

So I have been thinking more and more on this idea, and I can’t get the image of Gundam Wing out of my head.:

I really did like that show (apart from some of the OTT emo-ness), plus I think that having such an agile and fast dreadnought would be quite different. The main concept I want behind this is that I want it to be more effective than a standard dread. Now I don’t mean for the same points obviously, it will be more expensive, but not some clunking monstrosity that gets taken out in the first turn by an easy shot. More like this would be one of our “uber” units. Very efficient, but also bloody rare.

So toying round with some ideas……….now firstly I we need to think of a new name – Any suggestions on that?

Onto the background behind the unit.

These mechanical units are currently the pinnacle of technological progress of the Chiro. Firstly their exoskeleton is entirely produced from a new alloy, created by the Chiro. This alloy is made by nanobots reconstructing the molecular bonds of a rare ore found on the Cythor homeworld. Though efficient this technique is immensely time consuming, and as such there are very few of the suits currently in commission. The resulting alloy is very resilient, and as such smaller quantities are need, enabling the suits to be more lightweight.

Those suits themselves stand over 10 feet tall, fashioned in the manner of armoured warriors. They are piloted by a chiro who sits within a heavily armoured chest cavity which carries on up into the head of the suit. It is the combination of these two, that made the suit so efficient at its task. The suit itself as fibre muscles, tended to by millions of nanobots. This is then combined with a circuitry, which them connects with the Chiro’s own body.

During the initial connection between the two, these two nanobot systems merge their nanobots, their signals syncing until finally they are indistinguishable from one another. At this point the suit acts as an extension of the Chiro, which considering the Chiro’s augmented physiology is potent indeed. The suit can react and fight as well as if the Chiro was fighting without the suit, only it has the enhanced size, strength and armour. Due to this, only second or third generation chiro are chosen to bond with the suit, to maximize its potential.

The Chrio within can disconnect himself, and is not forced to stay in the suit. However normally the same Chiro will pilot the suit, due to how long the syncing process can take, which is normally months. If and when the Chiro dies, if the suit is still usable, it can be synced again with another pilot, however each time the process seems to take longer to reach maximum potential. Indeed one suit took over a year to sync with its fifth pilot. However the nanobots that are left in the system do retain the previous pilots knowledge, providing the new pilot with a wealth of experience when fully synced.

In regards to armaments, the suits are modular. They have various points which weapons or shields can be mounted, and as such they can go into battle with different weapons every time if necessary. As such they are normally equipped deal with the current enemy as efficiently as possible, and any Chiro army that has one of these suits on their side immediately gains a huge advantage

WS 7 / BS 5 / S 7 / T - / W - / I 6 / A 3 / Ld 10

Amour
Front 12 / Side 12 / Rear 12
NS: 4+ *

* Unlike most vehicles, the combination of the enhanced alloy and the millions of nanobots allow the suit an armour save. This is taken if an enemy manages to glance or penetrate the suits armour. If the save is passed, the hit is discounted.

Mount Points:
Left Arm: One dual point
Right Arm: One weapon point
Chest: One shield point

That’s what I have for basics. There will be some custom weaponry and shielding mounts available, but thought I would get some feedback first.

 

[Sanai]

Nice Idea. So its basically a cross between a dreadnaught and a nanosuit from crysis?
I think it should rely on speed and reflexes rather than armour. Perhaps give it some kind of bonus on the -tohit from movement. Also make it able to pass difficult terrain as if just infantry, or even just ignore it (if you in a big scary suit, you can just run/vault straight over obstacles)

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I was thinking of raising its Front AV to 13. My concern about this guy is that as a lone vehicle running around in a list with currently no other vehicles, he will be taking a whole army's worth of anti-tank fire. Manuveurable or not it will be very difficult to survive to turn 3 in that case, let alone the end of the game.

BTW one thing to clarify about his NS4+, it is defined as an armor save so you cannot take both a cover save and the NS4+( a la Feel No Pain)?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Well there are going to be the heavy skimmers etc, so this isn’t going to be the only vehicle on offer.

However I do know what you mean, hence why it has three mount points, two of which could be used as shield mounts (though this would limit the weapons). For example if you use the basic shield mount you could increase the armour upto an all round 14, however the cost for this would be expensive. I would imagine a certain amount for using it once, then a higher cost for doubling up.

So as default it would have access to:

Basic Shield Generator
Shield Syphon

Other shielding available (which could be used possibly by other vehicles maybe)

Directional Shield
This particular generator is built into a shield shaped piece of metal, made from the same alloy of the suit itself. When connected to the suits systems it can refocus its shielding capabilities, making the shield itself almost impenetrable
This must be mounted on the dual point on the suit. The suits gains +2 to its frontal armour, which can be combined with other shielding (so yes it could have a front armour of 15), however the rear side shields are reduced by 1 point each. In addition, any attacks that would normally roll more than the standard D6 for armour penetration, loose their additional dice if the attach is directed against the front armour.

Dispersion Shield
A very recent addition to shield armoury, this particular design creates a field of particles are the suit. Whilst negliable against solid objects, this field has found to have a detrimental affect against any energy based weapons, defocusing and refracting their power.
Against any energy based weapons (plasma, las, power weapons, force weapons, melta, fusion) suits armour save becomes Invulnerable

Ablative Shielding
A more unusual variant of shielding, instead of being a sustained barrier that is slowly drained, this works on the principle of thinner layered shields. This approach stops the shield from being overloaded, and has found to be more effective at stopping powerful shots. However unlike the standard shields it is slower to regenerate and thus suffers under sustained fire.
The suit has a invulnerable NS of 2+. However for every shot that it saves against the save is reduced by 1 for the remainder of the battle.


Ranged Weapons

Now the weapons on this thing I imagine to be variants of the existing weapons, but more potent or more firepower.

Ares Cannon: Omega Variant
Range: 48"
Strength: 9
AP: 3
Heavy 1
Focused Beam, Lance, Twin Linked

Explosive
Anything that is successfully penetrated will more than likely be outright destroyed by the ensuing sonic explosion
If the Ares cannon penetrates or glances and enemy vehicle the Chiro player may roll two dice on the Vehicle Damage Chart, picking the highest result. Against Eldar holo-fields this rule and the holo-fields cancel each other out, thus the Chiro player would roll one dice for Vehicle Damage as per normal.
If any other model is wounded by the Ares cannon, and it fails any save(if applicable) roll a D6. On a roll of 6 the model is killed outright, regardless of wounds, saves etc, as per the Instant Death rule, however this is regardless of the targets toughness.

Helios Blaster: Omega Varient
Range: 24''
Strength: 6
AP: 4
Assault 10
Rending, Twin Linked

Poseidon Launcher: Omega Variant
Range: 48”
Strength: 7
AP: 4
Heavy 2
Large Blast, Barrage
Pulse

So just need some CC weapons.

What do you think so far?

As per Sanai’s suggestion, I was thinking of putting boosters as a possible upgrade, but in return would need to restrict some of the larger weapons maybe?

 

[Sanai]

I was thinking that perhaps the lighter, agile version for the characters to use as armour could work like the Tau battlesuits, i.e. not actually counting as a vehicle, just having a larger size and tough stats.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Do you mean have two versions, have this one and a lighter one?

To be honest, I would rather not go down the lighter route, as then we will simply be copying the TAU battlesuits.

 

[Sanai]

Tau battlesuits are geared for shooting and maneuvering.
Also, are you saying that making a lethal close combat dreadnaught that can be used as a character is not copying things?
(Librarian Furioso anyone? All 40k dreadnaughts anyone?)

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I think we need details on its mobility. What type of movement mode would it have as default, and would it have any movement options like boosters that were mentioned

Also, two questions on its weapons:

-Does it have any close combat option? Currently it doesn't ignore armor saves. I can imagine giving it a big sword that would count as a DCCW

-Regarding the Omega Poseidon, if I'm not wrong a Barrage weapon cannot be fired on the move, making the walker's mobility moot. You sure you want it to be a barrage weapon?

 

[Sanai]

Could we tie in the dreadnaughts with the fantasy black coach? Being based on imperial technology, we could make it be like the sarcophagus of the space marine dreadnaughts, except its where a vampire goes into a sort of coma state and regenerates from wounds/being old. These capsules/coffins/sarcophagi with vampires inside are sometimes inserted into a mechanical body, and the vampires mind is able to merge with the machines computer, enabling him to be conscious and control the machine even though his body is unconscious.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

The main concept of this dreadnought was to be different from the other two types of suits:

SM Dreads – These are generally slow and lumbering, with ok / poor armour. Good in combat
TAU suits – Fast but not fantastic armour. Used as weapon platforms, not that good in combat.

The idea of this dreadnought was that it would firstly be a lot bigger. More like a mini titan rather than a suit of armour. To be a lot faster and agile than the standard dreadnoughts, and to be effective in combat. It is basically more a walking tank, able to sustain and output a lot of firepower, unlike other suits and dreads.

In regards to speed. I have been thinking on that, and I think as standard it should have normal walker speed, but have the option to do “fleet of…..” to represent it can move quickly when it wants to if it of course doesn’t stop to shoot.

Combat weapons – yes I do have some in mind, but feel free to make or suggest some of your own. I just haven’t had the time to write them out yet.

I would then imagine that with the boosters, the walker could be made into a fast vehicle, thought it would perhaps need a limitation. Perhaps the centre shield mount would have to be removed to make space for the booster fuel etc?

@ Sanai – If I am honest I dislike the concept only because it is almost a direct cop of SM Dreads.

 

[Meier Lenk]

hmm. if your wanting it to be some kinda mini-titan, why not make it heavier than the SM dread? like say, 14 13 13 with 4 module mounts (though there may be a hard limit on the amount of ranged weapons that can be taken)? this gives great room for adaptability; one could have a special armour upgrade that could make it have "fleet..." at the expense of being unable to fit certain heavier weapons, which would make it a very capable melee combatant or infantry support choice. there could be other similar upgrades that would turn it into a heavy weapon platform par excellence, whilst being more ponderous, or something which could work act as a mobile triage center even (such as "ignore 1st wound from shooting within 6" for example) or even a rally point of some description (routed units retreat towards the dread and rally within 1", or would that be painfully broken?) at the expense of something else...

what dya think?

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I agree with Meier to a certain extent, metinks that its Front AV should be raised to 13. BTW what about its movement options? You mentioned boosters, whatever you come up with I don't think they should eat up a mount. Simply having Fleet doesn't make a walker very fast(I've heard a lot of grumbling about how Defilers are never fast enough to get into CC before they get shot to pieces), so it definitely needs something more than that to be called 'maneuverable'.

 

[Bishop]

The ability to flank?

I really dislike the idea of it being any faster then all of the rest of the walkers in the game! If it's a walker, then it moves 6"... that's it! Add fleet, flanking, whatever you want... but you shouldn't change the basic rule of everything moves 6. (I really do missed variable movement from 2nd ed, however... everything less moves 6/12... lets keep it that way)

I'd be careful about making it too powerful, unless you actually want a titan/superheavy!

 

[Sanai]

I like the idea of a fast moving walker.

 

[Meier Lenk]

bishop; if i remember correctly (my knowledge of the 40k rules is something like 2 books out of date) units that take advantage of "fleet..." cannot shoot that turn, because they are moving in their shooting phase instead? since afaik most walkers are pretty shooty (defilers, stabby wraithlords and furioso dread's are the only ones that are explicitly cc oriented) this would actually make for a pretty fair trade off.

and ofcourse, there are already units that circumvent the 6" rule by using "fleet", so it is not unreasonable that a walker could be designed in such a way that its movement can be represented by the "fleet" rule too.

 

[Bishop]

The ability "Fleet" allows a unit to Assault after performing a "Run" during the shooting phase. Any non-fleet units that run, are unable to assault after doing so. You are right though, it would have to forfeit shooting that turn in order to move d6" (running).

My only concern is that any vehicles created should fall into one of the existing vehicle categories. We are creating a new 40k vehicle unit, not a new 40k vehicle type!

If you wanted to add in a special rule that it can roll 2d6" and pick the highest for a Run action, or something like that... that's fine.

If you wanted the vehicle to be a walker and a skimmer, that'd be okay... just don't make it a walker, fast, skimmer as the only vehicles I can think of with those types are Eldar Titans.

Also, if you make it into a skimmer, I'd be hesistant to have AV over 12 (Tau Hammerhead has 13 front, but it's a fairly heavily armed tank).

 

[Sanai]

Eldar wave serpents have higher AV than that I think.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

The ability to flank?

I really dislike the idea of it being any faster then all of the rest of the walkers in the game! If it's a walker, then it moves 6"... that's it! Add fleet, flanking, whatever you want... but you shouldn't change the basic rule of everything moves 6. (I really do missed variable movement from 2nd ed, however... everything less moves 6/12... lets keep it that way)

I'd be careful about making it too powerful, unless you actually want a titan/superheavy!

Uh, I don't think you read the first post where DoN laid out the concept. This is meant to be an uber-unit, more of a mini-titan actually. That said, we may have to tone this guy down in retrospect after doing the rest of the vehicles, as I can foresee issues with oversaturation of armor combined with a Death Star walker.

Speaking of being faster, it seems you haven't met BA Librarian Dreadnoughts either. They can cast a psychic power which allows them to use jump pack movement. For this reason(and other nifty BA psychic powers), the Librarian Dreadnought is quickly becoming a must have for BA players.

@Sanai: No, the Wave Serpent is 12/12/10. However it has a nifty force field rule that cancels out bonus d6 for penetration(so meltas only roll 1d6 for penetration and rending is negated, etc).

 

[Bishop]

AFAIK, the only skimmers (in the BASIC game) with AV higher then 12 are Hammerhead (13) and Monolith (14).

I've not seen the new BA codex, cuz... it's just red space marines , and I don't really care enough.

Cast all the Psychic powers you want, you will eventually fail to my Runes! :bowdown: I love it when the enemy has Psykers.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

AFAIK, the only skimmers (in the BASIC game) with AV higher then 12 are Hammerhead (13) and Monolith (14).

I've not seen the new BA codex, cuz... it's just red space marines , and I don't really care enough.

Cast all the Psychic powers you want, you will eventually fail to my Runes! :bowdown: I love it when the enemy has Psykers.

Ah, I didn't know you were a pointy-eared comrade. For some reason BA libby dreads are immune to Perils cos you can't roll to wound a vehicle. I like to chant "12+!12+!" in my head when I watch people roll their 3d6 so that makes me quite sad.

And besides the 2 skimmers you mentioned, there's only 1 more with AV higher than 12, and that's the Master of the Ravenwing's Speeder(special character)

 

[Bishop]

AFAIK, the only skimmers (in the BASIC game) with AV higher then 12 are Hammerhead (13) and Monolith (14).

I've not seen the new BA codex, cuz... it's just red space marines , and I don't really care enough.

Cast all the Psychic powers you want, you will eventually fail to my Runes! :bowdown: I love it when the enemy has Psykers.

Ah, I didn't know you were a pointy-eared comrade. For some reason BA libby dreads are immune to Perils cos you can't roll to wound a vehicle. I like to chant "12+!12+!" in my head when I watch people roll their 3d6 so that makes me quite sad.

And besides the 2 skimmers you mentioned, there's only 1 more with AV higher than 12, and that's the Master of the Ravenwing's Speeder(special character)

My armies are in my sig

Oh, if you want to include Special Characters, then Asdrubael Vect as well.