ZP - Bloated Corpses

[Keldane]

For the discussion of Bloated Corpses as a core choice.

Under the original rules, Bloated Corpses were single models that exploded on death, had poisoned attacks, and came at what I feel to be a relatively cheap cost.

How do we want to see them employed? Exactly as previously printed? Some change to the statline? Mounted on monster-sized bases?

 

[uga bug]

Personally I'd like to see a few changes, mainly in regards to the number of bloated corpses. I'd prefer to see a unit of bloated corpses rather than single models. The explosion on death would have to be re-worked however as a blast template in a unit wouldn't be productive-unless the blast doesnt affect other bloated corpses.

 

[Keldane]

Hmm... Going on that idea, Uga, why not a flamer template forward as the bloated corpse 'ruptures'? Though, that may make them a little too cost effective against single wound infantry.

Personally, I'm picturing them on monster-sized bases, operating as skirmishers, with the template aimed directly towards their attacker when killed.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I like that idea too Keldane. We should make their death equally potent against armoured / high toughness foes, which should be easy if we work with the idea of toxic gas or something spewing from them.

However I think we need to ensure they are not too easily killed, otherwise they will never make it into combat.

 

[Keldane]

The existing ones force a toughness test or lose a wound with no armor saves allowed, in addition to coming with poisoned attacks to begin with. I like the idea, and if we wanted to make it have a blanket effectiveness, why not have each struck model roll a d6 and take a wound on a 1? The flame template would likely hit more models to begin with, so a reduced effectiveness in dealing damage may help mitigate that effect.

Concerning them not being too easily killed, the current ones are Toughness 4 with two wounds. At a glance, I'd say that's reasonably tough, though a hero would want to be careful when fighting these guys, 'cause any he specifically popped himself would spray directly at him (if one wanted to get nitpicky with technicalities).

At any rate, they are technically suicide troops. I wouldn't want them to be too survivable, personally.

Speaking of which, that raises a question - what happens when these guys die to crumbling? Or, are they perhaps immune, for some reason?

 

[uga bug]

Concerning them not being too easily killed, the current ones are Toughness 4 with two wounds. At a glance, I'd say that's reasonably tough, though a hero would want to be careful when fighting these guys, 'cause any he specifically popped himself would spray directly at him (if one wanted to get nitpicky with technicalities).

Once again my views differ. If a zombie werer to become bloated with gas, which is what i assume the bloated corpses are, with the hint being in the name, then i dont see them as being tough at all-but rather weaker. They may be bloated but they are not bloated because of a gift from nurgle. They are filled with gas, like a balloon, and what happens when a balloon meets something sharp?

The existing ones force a toughness test or lose a wound with no armor saves allowed, in addition to coming with poisoned attacks to begin with. I like the idea, and if we wanted to make it have a blanket effectiveness, why not have each struck model roll a d6 and take a wound on a 1? The flame template would likely hit more models to begin with, so a reduced effectiveness in dealing damage may help mitigate that effect.

That seems good to me, although i'd rather see the potential to kill increased, with the coprses themselves becoming easier to kill. Maybe treating the corpses death like the wood elves dragon breath attack-a low strength with a high armour save modifier- strength 2 armour save -3. That'd make the gas somewhat more useful against both armoured and non armoured units.

Speaking of which, that raises a question - what happens when these guys die to crumbling? Or, are they perhaps immune, for some reason

HAve we discussed how crumblnig will affect the army as a whole yet? If we have I've missed it :slapface:

 

[Alexos]

I think that the Rupture rule should be distributed as a Shooting attack, and should have something akin to Troll Vomit from the Orcs and goblins codex. The rule I thought of is as follows:

Bile
Some captains make the foolhardy choice of trying to kill Bloated Corpses in close combat. Anyone who does is sprayed with the contents of the corpse's stomach, which contains a vile acid which can eat through even the hardest Brettonian armour
When a Bloated corpse dies, the unit that killed it takes D6 strength 5 hits, with no armour save allowed.

The rules for the Trolls in the Orcs Armybook said that they could make a vomit attack that causes a Strength Five hit with no armour saves allowed.

Bloated Corpses, in my opinion, would be closer to home as a monster, which can join units and such. Much like an Ogre.

Also, I think that a Bloated Corpse for Pirates would be one found in the sea, so gas wouldn't do. More or less, they would be filled with water, small fish, and the occasional Mermaid.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Once again my views differ. If a zombie werer to become bloated with gas, which is what i assume the bloated corpses are, with the hint being in the name, then i dont see them as being tough at all-but rather weaker. They may be bloated but they are not bloated because of a gift from nurgle. They are filled with gas, like a balloon, and what happens when a balloon meets something sharp?

But then the fluff needs balancing with game play. Make the Bloated Corpse too easy to kill and they will never reach combat and will basically be a waste of points.

I think we should do the following:

Up them to Ogre size, give them a extra wound (still T4). This could be the bloated corpse of anything.

Have them have some kind of kickback for those than inflict wound, maybe to show some of the toxic insides spurting forth as they are wounded. Maybe something like any unit that causes a wound on a BC corpse suffers an automatic S4 hit per wound caused.

When they die, then inflict either a flame template or D6+4 hits, S5 amour piercing (due to the acid).

There could be the option for them to join other units (like the CC currently can), for them to be shielded from enemy shooting?

 

[uga bug]

When they die, then inflict either a flame template or D6+4 hits, S5 amour piercing (due to the acid).

There could be the option for them to join other units (like the CC currently can), for them to be shielded from enemy shooting?

I think D6+4 its would be better than a flamer template-as a template would normally hit a lot of troops, and then be overpowered-unless the effects of the blast are lessened.

I like the idea of the corpse to join other units; they could in some respects act like goblin fanatics and be purchased as a unit upgrade?

 

[Keldane]

I like the idea of the corpse to join other units; they could in some respects act like goblin fanatics and be purchased as a unit upgrade?

I considered suggesting this myself, and opted not to suggest including them as an upgrade option. I feel that our Zombie Pirates core units already have plenty of upgrade options; personally, I'd like to see the Bloated Corpses come into their own as a separate selection.

Puncture the Core
Filled with volatile, fetid elements of decay, Bloated Corpses are risky enemies to fight. When someone succeeds in piercing their leathery hide and penetrating to their body cavity, these elements being to seep out, sometimes even spraying over whole units as the giant corpse slowly deflates.
As soon as the Bloated Corpse takes a wound, and at the end of each subsequent Combat Phase, all enemy models in base to base contact must make a toughness test or sustain a wound with no armor saves allowed. If, instead, the Bloated Corpse takes two or more wounds in a single combat round, instead place a flame template measuring from the center of the Bloated Corpse's base directly towards the enemy that caused the wounds. All enemies completely covered by the template are hit automatically, and those partially covered are hit on a 4+. Any models affected must make a toughness test or sustain one wound with no armor saves allowed.

Alright, it's verbose, but would the above rule work adequately?

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I think the above rule would work.

Are they going to be in small units (3-5) or just as single models? Personly I like the idea of 3-5 models in a units, large bases (40 by 40) and skirmishing

 

[Sanai]

Perhaps make it like this:
Bloated Corpses (2-5)
May be fielded Independently or attached to units. If fielded independently, all Bloated Corpses in a unit must be deployed together, but may move apart from each other as independent units.

 

[uga bug]

rather than have the option of being either as a unit or individuals I think we should choose one-and have no other options.
The list is already gonig to have a tonne of customisation and upgrade options-we dont need mroe on unit structure!

I think a skirmishing unit would be better than having individual corpses wandering around.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I would say if we are going that route then skirmishing is the best.

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

Oh... Sweet... Zombie... Jesus.... I'm HOME!
I've always wanted to revamp the ZP list, pun must definitely intended

I've always thought they should be unit upgrades myself, kinda like skaven rattling guns. That way, they can be very good (i.e. still blow up helluva lotta troops) while not being a list buster unit. Whatever you do to them, they Have to pop, and they probably will due to static CR against them. I've got 10, don't make them suck!

 

[Sanai]

How about they both have an attack (Puking on the enemy and slamming their corpulent smelly fatty fat fat into the enemy)
and an explode on death template special ability.

 

[Althulus]

I think that the original WD concept for these guys was great. I would really enjoy seeing them in small units as skirmishers or as just single dudes lurching around exploding on stuff. So maybe make them a core choice with unit size 1-6. I don't think they should be ogre sized, that's just unrealistic in my opinion and would be foolish and now with true line of sight it would make them very impractical. I can see them on 25 mil bases though. Also i think that the no partial rule for templates now makes them a little too powerful. I think D6 toughness tests with no armor save allowed would be more balanced and the randomness makes them funnier too. I like their original stats of toughness 4 with 2 wounds and only 1 poisoned attack...I mean c'mon, they're bloated corpses, they should be slow and awful in combat.

Another thing to consider would be to make them harder to hit by shooting similar to the zombie dragon cloud of flies rule but against shooting instead of close combat. Something like:

The foul smell and gobs of rotting flesh on these corpses attract large swarms of insects and they will often times become so obscured that the enemy won't know the horror that is upon them before it is already too late. Any model wishing to shoot at the bloating corpses using ballistic skill will suffer an additional -1 to hit modifier after all other modifiers are applied.

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

Ogre sized?! Mine are ex plague bearers! Not too big, but not too small. I'd say fair.

I like the "they smell bad so flies like them" rule
Keep them core, not counted towards minimum, I like the 1 - 6 option though
As for 1 poisoned attack and the explode, I like it Bloated corpses should be feared by everyone!

 

[Mister Feral]

I'll add my thoughts.

I personally think the rules as they stand are fine as they are. However, I think the one main problem is that under the new 8th edition rules of picking armies, it would be possible to spam a whole lot of Bloated Corpses (I don't think it would be too effective though). I believe that instead of having them as seperate Core choices, they instead come "attached" as part of a Deckhands or Gunners unit (just like Skaven Weapon Teams, as mentioned by someone else before me).

 

[uga bug]

Thats true....spam bloats wouldnt be fun, ok they may be for us but not our opponents!

I don't have a clue how skaven gun teams work-is it anything like goblin fanatics? -i can just imagine a great bloaty thing launching itself out of a unit to explode on a unit :lol:

 

[Althulus]

Or you could just make them not count toward your minimum core requirements.

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

I think the same guidelines as skaven weapon teams would work fine. If they're within 3" of their parent unit they get a 4+ ward, meaning they have a better chance of getting to combat, but they'd be limited to one per unit. Seeing as they cost approx half of a decent weapons team, I'd let you take 2, but give the unit restrictions afterwards then, like characters can't join their units. Harsh, but balanced IMO