ZP- Siren Discussion

[Keldane]

At the moment, there is a little bit of debate as to whether the Siren concept should be used as a Lord level caster, a Special Character, or a Rare unit. To help resolve this without having to bounce back and forth between the related threads, I'm launching this specific discussion. To quote LoR:

In this thread we shall discuss specific unit rules, stats and weapons choices. When things are decided upon, I will post them at the top of the thread.

Personally, I am of the opinion that the Siren should be a character with limited availability (say, 0-1?). I feel the entirety of its purpose should be manipulating/limitung the movement of enemy units, perhaps by causing a 12" radius Stupidity effect on any enemy not immune to psychology, and a leadership penalty (-3?) on Stupidity tests for any unit already subject to Stupidity. (Actually, when I started writing this, I thought it should be a 0-1 single model Rare unit, but what I was suggesting swayed my opinion)

 

[Sanai]

I think it should be able to influence enemy movement in more of a luring kind of way, pulling an enemy unit out of position.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I personally think she should be the lord level caster to tie in with the singing magic theme. She could still have other special rules such as causing stupidity etc, just because she is a caster there is no need to take that away.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I personally think she should be the lord level caster to tie in with the singing magic theme. She could still have other special rules such as causing stupidity etc, just because she is a caster there is no need to take that away.

I concur, I think she should be the Lord level caster primarily with a few other 'perks'

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Just had a thought actually.......why would a Siren be leading a Pirate Zombie Crew o.o I like the rules and the idea of a singer, but I can't think how the fluff would justify it.

 

[Keldane]

How loudly would people scream if we made the Siren a caster Rare choice? I know, casters are normally characters, and has there ever been precedent for a non-character spell caster?

 

[Sanai]

I think at some point units of tzeentch horrors were casters.
edit: If we make her a caster, but without magic items available to her, then she would be fine as a rare choice I think.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I think at some point units of tzeentch horrors were casters.
edit: If we make her a caster, but without magic items available to her, then she would be fine as a rare choice I think.

Yeap horrors are casters and there core troops. I think we could get away with a small unit of 'lesser' sirens as 1 low level caster as a rare, and use a 'greater' siren as a lord level caster

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I don’t know. If the player then took a caster lord, shanty singer and the Siren you risk having an OP magic phase. If she was to be a rare she would have to be limited choice, and also limited in how many shanties she can sing etc – she would have to be more focused around being a disruptive force.

 

[xaeromancer]

How loudly would people scream if we made the Siren a caster Rare choice?

Very. It's mechanically unsound, especially as 8th Edition might be moving back to percentile representation and you could have a lot of them. It's suitable for a Tzeentch army, but not anywhere else really.

Also, the Shanty system seems to be a very dominant magic system, anyway.

The other issue is there is absolutely no background based reason for a Siren to be involved with zombies. But then in the Warhammer background, the undead on the Vampire Coast are the produce of Luther Harkon's vampire bloodline. A siren would certainly ally with a vampire as they are both manipulative power players, but there is no reason for some cursed crew to attract her attention in their meanderings.

So this is probably something else to throw away.

 

[Sanai]

I was thinking that the siren wouldnt sing shanties, and would have her own songs that she sings by herself.

 

[Keldane]

I was thinking that the siren wouldnt sing shanties, and would have her own songs that she sings by herself.

That would make sense. One song per magic phase, I assume, and probably a list of three that she could choose from? In that respect, she wouldn't be too different from a corpse cart - that is to say, a unit that provides a bound spell effect. If we keep the powerlevel in the D3+2 to D6+2 range (I personally lean towards the former rather than the latter), I suspect it'd be within reason.

 

[Sanai]

I reckon a rare choice, no magic items, 3 songs, ethereal.
Songs- One that pulls enemy units towards her (sirens call?) luring them to their doom (their doom being the unit you have ready to flank them)
and perhaps 1 or 2 other songs.

 

[Serval]

Well, the sirens were related to the Erinyes [furies] in classical mythology, so perhaps give them a song that boosts a unit's attacks or strength for a limited amount of time, or just when attacking a unit designated by the song.

 

[xaeromancer]

In only one version are they the daughters of Cthon and sisters of the Erinyes; Homer himself doesn't give them lineage and only refers to there being two of them. Control and misdirection are the keynotes here. This list has plenty to upgrade it in combat already.
The siren should remain a Lord level caster, the list is currently missing one and there is a surfeit of Rare choices already. However, given the increasingly zombie and decreasingly pirate direction of the list, she may as well be cut completely.

The main argument to include a siren refers not only to the Odyssey but also to the lamia, which not only fits mythologically and etymologically (the word lamia meaning shark) but it also gels with the existing background of Lahmia being the birthplace of the vampires. Unfortunately, since it seems that zombies are spontaneously dominating the Vampire Coast, without even the need for Necromancers, there is no reason whatsoever to include the Siren any more.

 

[Keldane]

I am posing the following questions with the intent of beginning to form a unit profile in the first post in this thread. As we agree on elements, I will edit them in.

First, are we all in agreement that the Siren will be a single model, whether it's a unit or a character?

Second, are we all in agreement that the Siren should have between one and three bound spell abilities, of which one may be activated per turn?

Personally, my answers are yes to each of those, and I won't edit them in until I have at least three undisputed agreeing opinions. If anyone would rather either of these elements be handled differently, please speak up, and we can talk them out before they go up.

Additionally, I'd like to begin discussing stats for the Siren. Obviously, the purpose of the Siren isn't going to be combat, so I'm inclined to suggest a slightly altered version of the Necromancer's statline: Leadership increased to 10, Attacks increased to 2.

Concerning songs: Siren's Call, to manipulate an enemy unit's movement, and Beguiling Song, a self-defense ability that causes all enemies directing attacks at the Siren to drop to I1, lose ASF, and strike in initiative order.

 

[Alexos]

I think that the siren should be a unit that has a shooting attack that causes Stupidity. The fact is that the Siren, to me, sounds like a Tomb Banshee with sealegs.


This shooting attack would cause stupidity, and would have another special rule:

Lustful Tones
When the siren calls, the promise of Gold, Ale, Curvasceus women, and power beyond all others entices even the most alien of beings into her deadly traps.
If successfuly cast, pick one enemy unit. This moves 2D6" towards the Siren. If it comes into contact with difficult, or dangerous terrain, it automatically counts as having failed its test. Any unit this one comes into contact with, whether friend or foe, is automatically charged. If the unit under the spell Lustful Tones charges an allied unit, it breaks combat in the Vampire Counts' next turn.

I think that this isn't so bad, and it makes sense if you only have one in the army.

 

[uga bug]

First, are we all in agreement that the Siren will be a single model, whether it's a unit or a character?

Second, are we all in agreement that the Siren should have between one and three bound spell abilities, of which one may be activated per turn?

Personally, my answers are yes to each of those, and I won't edit them in until I have at least three undisputed agreeing opinions. If anyone would rather either of these elements be handled differently, please speak up, and we can talk them out before they go up.

I'min agreement-the siren being a single model and having bound spell abilities. I think 2 or 3 bound spells to choose from would be good, although thinking of any beyond the first altering movement I cant think of any that would stick to the siren fluff.
All sirens do is wail and bring sailors to their doom...unless one of the bound spell forces a panic test of all enemies units within x". Although that seems a bit powerful, maybe just forcing a single enemy unit within x" to take a panic test.

 

[Alexos]

The Siren should be a Rare choice, like said above, and should have a few songs to sing. One should be like Lash, to represent sailors going to their doom. Another would be something that causes a Leadership test, and I believe the last should be something that would cause stupidity or something of the like.

Though I don't think these should be cast like spells, rather, they should be distributed as Shooting attacks. Just like the Tomb Banshee in the VC armybook.

 

[uga bug]

Concerning songs: Siren's Call, to manipulate an enemy unit's movement, and Beguiling Song, a self-defense ability that causes all enemies directing attacks at the Siren to drop to I1, lose ASF, and strike in initiative order.

How about this, although I couldn't think of a suitable name for the wail:

The wails of the Siren show such despair and sorrow that even the most sturdy of heart hesitate before dealing the killing blow.
Can be used if the siren is in close combat at the start of the magic phase. The spell forces all enemies attacking the siren to drop to I1 for the remainder of the turn, or loose ASF and fight in initiative order.

Additionally, I'd like to begin discussing stats for the Siren. Obviously, the purpose of the Siren isn't going to be combat, so I'm inclined to suggest a slightly altered version of the Necromancer's statline: Leadership increased to 10, Attacks increased to 2.

In regards to the stats I think a necromancer based stat line would work well, with the changes you mentioned in addition to becoming a 2 wound model. and of course being ethereal!
I'm also thinknig that the Siren should not be allowed to join other units.

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

First, are we all in agreement that the Siren will be a single model, whether it's a unit or a character?

Definitely a single model, unable to join units but always allowed to march (she's a bloody ghost! A few scouting skink are hardly gonna make her wary for her "life" )

Second, are we all in agreement that the Siren should have between one and three bound spell abilities, of which one may be activated per turn?

Would this work the same way as the Liche Priests from TK? Sounds good to me either way. If she had this And magic, it'd be OTT

Concerning songs: Siren's Call, to manipulate an enemy unit's movement, and Beguiling Song, a self-defense ability that causes all enemies directing attacks at the Siren to drop to I1, lose ASF, and strike in initiative order.

I like the first one, but game wise, who actually wants the enemy to advance on the siren? She'll only be killed too fast. Will it be like that slaaneshi spell where you can force a unit to move as fast as possible to a specific part of the board? Seems the best idea to me, thats already been done so its not too crazy, plus its fun!
I think she should have a Ld zapping one as well, like a lamenting widow song - fluff wise, she lost everything to the sea, so she's pretty darn upset. Game wise - same kind as the old PDF, I liked the doom and darkness bit

Hope feedback good

 

[Alexos]

I think that the Beguiling song should be something more akin to a Panic test, if attacked, it would make it more defensive and less of a charge motivator.