ZP- Zombie Pirates Unit Discussion

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

- Why do you (and anyone else who shares the opinion) feel a mark of chaos-style method would be a better choice than having the champions provide the bonuses?
- How would you shape the fluff to back the mark of chaos method over the champion method?

Mearly to aviod confusion that if the champion dies the unit loses the bonus. I think it would function in exacally the same way as if the champion granted the bonus, but people might think that (unless the champion is lots of points, which wouldn't be good imo) that we're getting +2 ws (for example) for 4 points (the price a zombie champion would be going on the vc book).

We could call them titles and let units buy them for so many points (some are better then others imo)

 

[Keldane]

Merely to avoid confusion that if the champion dies the unit loses the bonus.

That was the intent, actually; no confusion about it from my personal perspective.

Concerning the costing of the champions, I had assumed that each type would have its own cost associated with it. Something to the effect of "One zombie per unit may be upgraded to any one of the following:" followed by a list of the champions, and their associated cost. Following that would be a "If the unit is lead by a/an X, they receive (stat bonus) and may purchase (weapon option) at +Y points/model". It wouldn't be a case of buying a Reaver for 4 points and automatically the unit has +1 Attack and Flails.

Actually, I'll give a more detailed example.

One zombie per unit may be upgraded to any one of the following at the cost of +1 point per model in the unit:
Mariner: Unit receives +2I and may purchase Spears for +1 pt/model
Swashbuckler: Unit receives +2WS and may purchase Shields for +1 pt/model
Reaver: Unit receives +1A and may purchase Flails at +2 pts/model
Navigator: Unit receives +2M when traversing difficult terrain and may purchase Halberds at +1 pt/model
Gunner: Unit receives +1BS and may purchase Handguns at +1 pt/model
Buccaneer: Unit receives +1 WS and extra hand weapons.

Statistic bonuses only apply as long as the champion is alive. Purchased weapon options remain even if the champion is subsequently defeated or otherwise removed from play.

In this case, my rough costing suggested that, with +1 point per model already being charged for the champion, the extra hand weapon should come free. *shrug* Just a matter of opinion. I also think I may have overpriced the flails, but I'm not certain just how much of an advantage +2 Str in the first round of combat would be for zombies.

 

[uga bug]

- How would you shape the fluff to back the mark of chaos method over the champion method?

For the fluff my thoughts are that a unit wouldnt gain extra knowledge or skills from the presence alone of a champion. I see it more of the unit has learned/trained in a particular way meaning all the individual pirates/zombies know the skill. Also it does make thigns simpler to say the whole unit has bonuses.
If the champion gives the benefit then the fluff would have to be that the champion is magically boosting the units abilities-which I think isnt quite how it would happen-going back to my ponit earlier all the members of the unit would have learned the skill/ability.

 

[Keldane]

You do have a good point, uga, though that does spawn the thought "sure, living people would learn from training, but in terms of fluff, how would that help the undead?" To me, suggesting that the champions are imbued with some sort of magical property that enhances the unit they're attached to makes sense simply due to the fact that they're undead, and that's just my opinion.

The other thing I would point out is that the intent was to couple specific statistical advances with specific weaponry to represent a particular archetype. If we do go the way of having the stat upgrades separate from the champions, then I would personally push for having limitations on which stat upgrades can be taken based on which champion has been purchased, as I like the idea of a unit of Swashbucklers with their hand weapon and shield or a unit of Reavers with their wildly inaccurate masses of flail attacks. :tongue:

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Hmmm, just read through this thread, I like the adaptable zombies, makes fior a true horde list
As to the champion vs unit upgrades thing:
Obviously the units have the weapons regardless of the champioins presence (or lack of it).
For the stat bonuses, since the sea shanties were going to be channeled through the units, then surely upgrades to units should be channelled through the champion, and if he dies the unit looses the bonus?
(Forgive me if I'm being thick, I still have several threads to read through, including the magic rules)

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

For the stat bonuses, since the sea shanties were going to be channeled through the units, then surely upgrades to units should be channelled through the champion, and if he dies the unit looses the bonus?
(Forgive me if I'm being thick, I still have several threads to read through, including the magic rules)

The only problem is, it is very easy to kill a zombie champion so we will lose our bonus's very quickly

 

[Keldane]

Which is why combining units to strike from multiple directions/make sure we get to strike first thanks to charging is important. The fragility of the champions is merely a challenge for us to overcome, as I see it.

That is a point I have considered, and personally, I think it would be worth testing both methods to see which seems to work better. If the champions wind up so incredibly frail that having them be the 'conduit' of the bonuses really means we're paying for nothing, then I'm all for the 'mark' method - though as said previously, I'll push for the mark to only be available in combination with a specific champion type/weapon option.

Remember, Zombie Pirates won't be our only core option. While they'll probably make up the bulk of the models we field, we'll also have a variety of special units to use in combination with them to achieve victory.

Now, a proposition based on previous discussion:
Dead Accurate
Zombies - definitely not the first choice when it comes to marksmen. They have a difficult time telling friend from foe, and have to deal with lost limbs due to firearm kickback, but they are not without their benefits. No pulse, no breathing and no sensation virtually eliminate the normal little things that decrease accuracy, and no fear means a charging foe doesn't phase them.
Zombie Pirates armed with Handguns always hit their target on 6s, ignoring all modifiers, and always hit a member of their own unit on a roll of a natural 1.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I just remebered that we can re-raise champions, i'm fine with the bonus's to relate to the champs then

Dead Accurate sounds good, love the name

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Thats a good point CRD. I never even thought of that

As to the Dead Accurate porposition, sounds good to me

 

[Alexos]

I like the Dead Accurate rule, It really speaks to me when it comes to zombie pirates.

Now, I think that we are putting a little too much on our zombie's shoulders. There about to fall off.

The thing about zombies for VC is one thing, They are cheap expendable units.

Sure, I like the idea of having a horde of raving zombies at my command, but in most VC armies, Zombies need to be backed up by skeletons and other units so that the army as a whole survives. I think that the champions are good, and that the direction they are being taken in is good as well, but we need to stop thinking about this as if our whole army depends on them!

That said, I think that the Zombie pirates should deserve a few other Champions.

Taskmaster: If this Champion is taken, Zombie units get an extra Rank Bonus for Combat Resolution when charged.

This one is supposed to represent the guy that usually makes sure everyone has things prepared for if the ship is boarded.

Also, I was thinking that we should go onto Google and search up the names/jobs/weapons/etc. that a Naval Crew had circa 12th century. It would give us an informed view onto the people we base these Zombies on.

 

[uga bug]

Now, a proposition based on previous discussion:
Dead Accurate
Zombies - definitely not the first choice when it comes to marksmen. They have a difficult time telling friend from foe, and have to deal with lost limbs due to firearm kickback, but they are not without their benefits. No pulse, no breathing and no sensation virtually eliminate the normal little things that decrease accuracy, and no fear means a charging foe doesn't phase them.
Zombie Pirates armed with Handguns always hit their target on 6s, ignoring all modifiers, and always hit a member of their own unit on a roll of a natural 1.

I like the rule, but i'm not sure on the effectivness of it. The fact they are just as likely to hit their target as themselves means the pratical use of the unit would be zero. they would end up killing more of their own unit than the enemy!
I cant think of a way round this. The only idea i have is maybe rolling a dice before shooting, and on a 1 the unit cant shoot-blackpowder got wet or something...

 

[Alexos]

I like the Can't shoot thing you got going there. Though we have to decide on how these zombies are to be used. I think that IF the dead accurate rule is taken, tweaking it a little would help. Something like this:


Dead Accurate
Zombies - definitely not the first choice when it comes to marksmen. They have a difficult time telling friend from foe, and have to deal with lost limbs due to firearm kickback, but they are not without their benefits. No pulse, no breathing and no sensation virtually eliminate the normal little things that decrease accuracy, and no fear means a charging foe doesn't phase them.
Zombies with handguns always hit on a 6, ignoring any modifiers. If more than a single one is rolled, the unit takes D6 strength 3 hits.

This way makes more sense, in my opinion. We can still have zombies accidentally killing each other, but everyone doesn't die with a bad roll.

 

[uga bug]

Dead Accurate
Zombies - definitely not the first choice when it comes to marksmen. They have a difficult time telling friend from foe, and have to deal with lost limbs due to firearm kickback, but they are not without their benefits. No pulse, no breathing and no sensation virtually eliminate the normal little things that decrease accuracy, and no fear means a charging foe doesn't phase them.
Zombies with handguns always hit on a 6, ignoring any modifiers. If more than a single one is rolled, the unit takes D6 strength 3 hits.

This way makes more sense, in my opinion. We can still have zombies accidentally killing each other, but everyone doesn't die with a bad roll.

Now that looks like a good rule!

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

Oooh, very interesting development, Me likey
Will there be a limit to the number of units that can be the same? Also, seeing as zombies are made of paper-mache these days, they're T2, no?

Heh really like the dead accurate rule, that name made me lol

 

[Alexos]

Mr. Fluffy, I think that they are toughness 2 still, though I think an upgrade to the Pirates, Like Big 'Uns, would help. Someone already posted this in the inclusion of skeletons thread. I agree fully.

 

[Althulus]

I like the special champion ideas but i think they should have nothing to do with weapon options; it makes the list waaay too complicated. The simpler the better I think. Zombie Pirates should just be one unit with musician and standard upgrade options. They should come standard with two hand weapons and have the following stat line:

Zombie Pirates Unit size 20+
M4 WS2 BS0 S3 T2 W1 I1 A1 L?

Any unit can choose to exchange their extra hand weapon for only one of the following:
Buckler (as shield) +1 point per model
Gaff Hook (as halberd) +1 point per model
Hook and Chain (as flail) +1 point per model

Any unit of Zombie Pirates may be equipped with pistols for +1 point per model. Note: pistols purchased in this manner may not be used as an extra hand weapon in the first round of close combat.

In addition; one of the following unit champion upgrades may be selected for 25 (or whatever) points:
Swashbuckler: Any unit of Zombie Pirates led by this champion will have +1 added to their weapon skill profile
Mariner: Any unit of Zombie Pirates led by this champion will have +2 added to their initiative profile
Buccaneer: Any unit of Zombie Pirates led by this champion will have +1 added to their toughness profile
Navigator: Any unit of Zombie Pirates led by this unit champion will have the Scout special rule (only 1 per 1000 points allowed)
(Note: these profile modifiers will affect the unit for the duration of the game regardless of the champion being killed or not)

Fluffwise, Zombie Pirates have retained more of their personality than the average zombie hence the better weapon skill and strength. I kinda combined everyone's ideas and tried to simplify things as to refine the general idea of what we're all going for here. Under the 8th edition rules spears would function practically identical to two hand weapons and i think spears in general are unfluffy and dumb for pirates hence why they are not included; it also helps differentiate our zombies even more from the regular vamp book skeletons. With this format I think the variety of options are all still there to make the list run-able and to keep people interested in the army except simplified and user friendly.

Let me know what you guys think.

Also, i think a unit of Zombie Handgunners is ABSOLUTELY necessary for the list and I think the current "Dead Accurate" rule is brilliant and should affect any of our shooting that uses BS. Hey we may kill just as many of our own dudes as the enemy but that's why Zombies are cheap

 

[Santawraith]

Reaper minis make some awsomeo nes too Least I think they were zombies. Though Im gonna convert a few from the plastic sets now after reading this post. I found my zombie pirtate stuff in a box today for the first time in years. excited about bringing them back to life.