Wildwoods

[Skittelz1981]

Yesterday and today we had/have a discussion about Wildwoods.

Played my weekly DE opponent./ He deployed his bolttrhowers in a wood, when we rolled for it it turned out to be nr 6; the Wildwood.

turn one he roll 4+ on both boltthrowers so they get hit, d6 s4 hits.

The question arose; is this shooting or closecombat hits?
We resolved it as closecombat, since it doesnt say anywhere it is resolved as shooting.

To me this makes more sense as well from a fluffy perspective, the woods attack you so its likely that vines and roots assail the intruder, this doesnt really create an image of shooting attacks. But some other people in my meta claim that hits like thses are always resolved as shooting.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Checked the rule book.
It does just say D6 S4 Hits, no distributed as shooting so it is up close and personal. (I checked for magical as well)

Much like the Whomping Willow in Harry Potter in my mind.

 

[Demian]

So... to clear things out:

If a Warmachine is the target of an effect that causes hits, but it's not marked "as Shooting" we use the Crew's Thoughness.

What about Wind of Death? D:

 

[Zhatan]

I'm not so sure this is right either as we only use the crews toughness in close combat, not sure how to handle hits that are neither ranged nor CC.
It's not specified in the rules imo as there is no default case.
It says use machines T for ranged and crews T for CC.
Or does some kind of ruling on generic hits exist that states they are counted as CC?

 

[Skittelz1981]

There is an faq stating that 'unusual attacks' like 'Thunderstomp´ and ´Breath attacks´ are resolved as shooting. But theyre qualified as± ´unusual attacks that happen in the combatphase´

Yet this is not specified and that particular faq doesnt apply to this situation imo since it has absolutely no resemblance whatsoever. (this is the faq a few in my meta want to use to make it resolve as shooting)

Imo this is just closecombat.
- nowhere is it stated this is an 'unusual attack'
- nowhere is it stated it is 'resolved as shooting'

The only thing clear is: d6 s4 hits, which is the generic RAW for any regular closecombat attack.

I cant think of any other RAW in brb or faq that adds anything to this.

From a fluff perspective; its a Wild Wood. 50% chance that this forest comes alive and harasses you with vines/roots/branches that come out of the ground and grip the crew and crush it (thats how i fantasize a nasty forest attacking you), which is definately a closecombat attack.

 

[Zhatan]

Assuming it is CC attacks does however allow other rules to come into play such as parry.

 

[Skittelz1981]

yes, parry or choosing who is getting hit when it is a mounted character, either the mount or the character.
Indeed, and fairly that is possible.
Its a cc so a parry, armorsave, wardsave etc is all allowed.
Whats not allowed is using t7 of the warmachine as if from shooting.

 

[The Sun King]

This is IMO one of the problems with how they wrote 8th... the types of attacks are not specified clearly, they did a good deal cleaning the magic phase in regards to this, but IMO they should have clear TYPES of attacks outside the magic phase as well.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Ok @The Sun King, but what is your opinion on this matter, apart from the GW fail to differentiate every type of attack specifically like you say.


A few examples someone in my meta uses to try and force it into shooting/warmachine-friendly attacks are:

Impact hits
Thunderstomp
Mangler Squig
Goblin Fanatic

Indeed all kinds of attacks that are within the combatphase (which the wood is not) that are clarified/faq'd/or within BRB or AB specified to be resolved as shooting.


This one does just d6s4 hits, nothing mentioned about shooting. Only conclusion is it is cc.

 

[Demian]

Distributing attacks "as shooting" does not mean it's a shooting attack D:

Terrorgheist's wounds are distributed as shooting, yet it is not (no cover, etc).

I only say that Hits/Wounds that happen outside of the Close Combat phase, that do not have an impact on Combat Resolution are all Ranged attacks.

However, magical effects such as these are neither D:!

Impact hits = Close Combat attacks, no Flag of Blood Keep on those.
Thunderstomp = same as above, much clearer
Goblin Fanatic / Hexwraith's Spectral hunters / Failed Dangerous terrain tests = Neither, just wounds. Those are not attacks, just Hits caused by whatever.



Don't know what to do if I hit a Warmachine with Wind of Death (nowhere to hide from wind), or with Hexwraiths (those guys can phase through walls! what's the cannon's hulk goint to do to them!)

=(

 

[Skittelz1981]

Demian, a few things wronf with your post:
-Thunderstomps are distributed as shooting attacks according to faq.
-Impact hits as well, you cannot parrysave impact hits because they follow the rules for shooting attacks.
-Hexwraiths attacks are SPECIFICALLY described as being distributed as shooting, which means that no parries are allowed and warmachines are allowed to use the t7 against it. Making it an extremely lousy warmachinehunter when you move through it.
-Fanatics and manglers are hits that are SPECIFICALLY described as being distributed as shooting.
-Death shriek is NOT distributed as shooting, it is simply resolved in the shooting phase but DOES NOT follow the rules for shooting attacks.
-Flag of BloodKeep does indeed not protect from impacthits or fanatics but not because of what you think. The banner protects against RANGED attacks, which impacthits and fanatichits are not. Theyre shooting attacks but not ranged.

Furthermore; when an attack is 'distributed as shooting' it actually means its a shooting attack, it must follow all the rules for shooting and so does the target. It just doesnt mean its ranged.


The thing i am saying is:

Anywhere in BRB, in any AB and in FAQ things that cause a certain amount of hits are subsequently clarified to be distributed as shooting which then forces these hits to follow all the rules for shooting attacks.
Anywhere this is not clarified and/or specified the assumption can only go towards those hits being regular closecombat attacks.

Apparently GW views attacks like this:
'attacks are nonmagical closecombat unless specified otherwise'

any attack that is magical is specified as such
any attack that is shooting is specified as such
any attack that diverges from the regular nonmagical closecombat situation is specified as such.

 

[The Sun King]

I would say it's up to the players, the RAW seems unclear. Or we can summon the Lord of Raw @Lynks to hear what he thinks

 

[Zhatan]

I agree with The Sun King. It simply is not clear. You can argue either way and both views have merit.
There is also something called unusual attacks I think but I don't have my book with me and I don't recall exactly what they are.
Perhaps it's unusual shooting attacks?
Someone can check it.

 

[Demian]

Oh... well, let me clear my reasoning then D:

- Distributing hits/wounds "as shooting" is just a way to determine who's been hit, thus Rank & File models are targeted first, then any remaining hits carry on to Characters, etc. In a full-ranked Unit above 5 models for infantry, excess hits will always kill Rank & File dudes (a unit of 10 guys is scored 20 hits, you roll against the R&F Toughness and wounds caused to that Unit will only obliterate the R&F dudes, leaving characters untouched). (kinda need confirmation on this, can't find out where it says so)

More specifically, "distributing as shooting" implies to follow steps 4 (Roll to Wound), 5 (Saving Throws) and 6 (Remove Casualties) on the page that explains how Shooting attacks work, however since you do not follow step 1, 2 and 3, those are not necessarily Shooting Attacks (no proyectiles fired) nor Ranged Attacks (no Shrieks have been made). Simply put, the term "distributing as shooting" implies how to remove casualties and who gets hit by _______ effect.

Now, onto the real deal:

- Hits caused by ranged weapons are Shooting attacks. They are also Ranged Attacks, and hits are distributed "as shooting" (duh!)

- Hits caused by cannonballs are also Shooting attacks that do not distribute wounds "as shooting". Why? because templates only hurt what they touch. Of course, once you've set that 4 R&F minis got killed by a catapult, you remove models from behind, but if a Champion/Character got hit (with no LOS) they get to be wounded, contrary to what "distributed as shooting" rule says.

- Hits caused by magic are not Shooting attacks, but they are Ranged attacks. Wounds are distributed "as shooting".

- Wounds caused by Death Shrieks are Ranged attacks, but not Shooting attacks. They are distributed "as shooting" though.

- Hits caused by Impact Hits and Breath Weapons while in close combat are NOT Close Combat attacks, they are Unusual attacks that generate Combat Resolution, although they are distributed "as shooting". EDIT: This... this causes me nightmares. Nowe we have 3 types of attacks, but read the Second Edit, it'll make more sense.

- Hits caused by Hexwraiths are Unusual attacks, made in the Movement Phase, that are not Close Combat nor Ranged attacks, but are distributed "as shooting".

Warmachines only use their T value when Shot at (as it explains in page 109), yet we've all seen that not every Ranged attack or hit distributed "as shooting" counts as a (normal) shooting attack. that would mean (as per RAW may I say): Spells targeting a Warmachine would use the crew's T vaule. Arrows fired against the Warmachine would use the Machine's T value.

And that's my main issue here ! Is there any FAQ that would clear out this even partially? D:

EDIT: Doing some more reading, Magic Missiles reads "as if the wizard was firing a missile weapon" at some point. So those whould use the Machine's T value. But Direct Damage spells say no such thing. Same for Vortexes.

SECOND EDIT: Upon looking at the FAQs, I found something rather interesting:

"When hits other than from shooting and close combat attacks are inflicted upon a Unit, how are these resolved? - As per the Resolving Unusual Attack's box. Note that all hits resolved in this way will count as shooting attacks for working out who is hit"

So... Flag of Blood Keep gets to save all drive-through attacks, such as Fanatics and Hexwraiths...!?

Bleh.

 

[The Sun King]

Interesting Demian. Your last find is pretty clear, which means that Wildwoods DO cause shooting attacks right?

 

[Skittelz1981]

Ok so it does do shooting, yet is not ranged so warmachines cannot claim the Toughness as the target?

this also implies that wind of death hit the crew and not the machine since it is a template vortex and not considered a shooting attack/missile weapon

 

[Alabaster427]

Ok so it does do shooting, yet is not ranged so warmachines cannot claim the Toughness as the target?

If they are distributed as shooting, then I would say that they could, much like impact hits are not ranged but still resolved against the T of the war machine.

 

[Skittelz1981]

- Hits caused by Hexwraiths are Unusual attacks, made in the Movement Phase, that are not Close Combat nor Ranged attacks, but are distributed "as shooting".
Warmachines only use their T value when Shot at (as it explains in page 109), yet we've all seen that not every Ranged attack or hit distributed "as shooting" counts as a (normal) shooting attack. that would mean (as per RAW may I say): Spells targeting a Warmachine would use the crew's T vaule. Arrows fired against the Warmachine would use the Machine's T value.

Here clearly explains that warmachines cannot claim T7 against this since its not fired at or shot at from a ranged weapon or missile weapon. Same would count for the wildwood

 

[Alabaster427]

So does this mean that Impact hits are resolved against the crews T since it's CC?

 

[Demian]

Well... they shouldn't. Impact Hits are not close combat attacks, but Unusual Attacks that generate Combat Resolution...

If we take the FAQ to the heart, those should hit the Machine's T.

However... the FAQ only includes "shooting attack" for determining "who is hit", in this case, since there are no Characters inside a Warmachine, nor Champions, the Crew must answer to any charge. Having a split profile doesn't mean you get to use all of their characteristics in battle, else Cavalry would have 2 wounds per model at least (which would be sweet for Blood Knights! !).

Saddly, for Warmachines, if it happens as a result of a charge and in the Close Combat Phase, the Crew should be affected. If it happens anywhere else, they cower behind the hulk of the machine and are "safe"

That's how I view it at least. RAW only determines who is hit and affects only Characters & Command models for that matter.

 

[Alabaster427]

Well... they shouldn't. Impact Hits are not close combat attacks, but Unusual Attacks that generate Combat Resolution...

If we take the FAQ to the heart, those should hit the Machine's T.

However... the FAQ only includes "shooting attack" for determining "who is hit", in this case, since there are no Characters inside a Warmachine, nor Champions, the Crew must answer to any charge. Having a split profile doesn't mean you get to use all of their characteristics in battle, else Cavalry would have 2 wounds per model at least (which would be sweet for Blood Knights! !).

Saddly, for Warmachines, if it happens as a result of a charge and in the Close Combat Phase, the Crew should be affected. If it happens anywhere else, they cower behind the hulk of the machine and are "safe"

That's how I view it at least. RAW only determines who is hit and affects only Characters & Command models for that matter.

For chariots, I imagine them seeing the Coach barreling towards them and then they hide behind the machine, avoiding the impact hits. But I don't see how you could be moving through a forest and then cower behind your war machine to avoid the plants...

 

[Skittelz1981]

Well off topic but:
If someone can shoot my TG because of LoS right thru windows in a building even though the rest he is completely behind it. Then how can 2 or 3 crewmen hide behind a warmachine?
I know warmachines need this protection otherwise they would be all too vulnerable but it clearly doesnt make any sense.
What makes even less sense is the Specteal hunters that move through the warmachine, basically perform closecombat hits with their great weapons but because it suddenly turns into shooting attacks the warmachine can claim its toughness 7 crap even though the crew can clearly NOT hide behind, underneath or wherever since those hexies would be moving right through them as well.
Same goes for the forest.... why would it be shooting attacks in the first place?


Clearly (even though this wasnt my aim with this thread) we once again uncover a GW fuckup

 

[Alabaster427]

Maybe they just pull some of the rules out of a hat, which is how I think they price their models...
"Hmmmm... How much should we charge for Black Knights?"
"Consult the hat!"
"Very well. The hat doth proclaim that Black Knights (and Hexwraiths) shall be $33. What is next?"
"Blood Knights!" The note-keeper says.
"Ah yes. Shall we charge the same price as the Black Knights? They are, after all, very similar models."
"NONSENSE! HERESY! HE'S GONE MAD!!!" shouts the board "We shall consult the hat, as we have always done!"
"Quite right. The hat doth proclaim $99! $99?! Why, oh hat?" The drawer turns the price tag over and it reads "metal models"
The board members are tickled at this. "Long may the hat reign!"

 

[Skittelz1981]

I love chinese bloodknights