Crumble, pro or con and dealing with it tactically

[Dancing Skeleton]

In a perfect would I would keep crumble. But there would only be two conditions under which a unit would crumble.

1 - A unit would take a crumble test at the end of the phase in which the general is slain. At the start of the next VC turn, a wizard using the Lore of the Vampires may assume control of the army. If this wizard is subsequently slain, repeat this process.

2 - A unit would take a crumble test if, at the end of it's turn, it is not within 12" of a Necromancer or Vampire, or within 18" of the army general.

I wouldn't require the Vampire or Necromancer to be using the Lore of the Vampires as I assume that the power required to keep a unit tied to undeath is such an innate magical ability for the VC wizards that they can do it even when utilising spells from a different lore. Keeping the entire army bent to their will requires more specific necromantic ability and as such, the general (and his substitutes) would still need to be using the lore of the vampires.

Crumble (in it's current incarnation) doesn't fit the fluff for several reasons.

Have you ever seen a Zombie movie where our heroes slay one zombie, and another one nearby drops dead out of sympathy? No, it's ridiculous. Why would brainless undead care that they are losing a combat? Its the magical will of the general that keeps them alive and motivates them. If anything, when their numbers are reduced through combat he should be able to focus MORE energy on them, not less. And finally, why would a centuries old Vampire or a savage bloodthirsty monster like a Varghulf care if some zombies or skeletons are slain in combat? Can you imagine it? "Oh no, some of my numberless and utterly meaningless minions have been slain! The pain is too much, I must die with them!"

No.

I mean, it's easy and it's simple, but it's not the best way to represent the nature of the undead.

The problem with everything you just said is it that it doesn't consider game balance at all.

If your troops didn't crumble within 12" of a Vampire/necromancer or 18" of a general then there would basically be no crumbling at all. So we would have unbreakable troops that don't crumble and can be raised with IoN.

I can also buy it from a fluff perspective. You compare it to a zombie movie, but keep in mind the rules for zombies aren't always the same. It is after all a fictitious creature. In the world of Warhammer you have a horde of undead minions not brought back by a curse or a disease but by magic from one being. Not an easy task. Having to maintain control of that link would be difficult and when minions die that link is weakened and others go down as well. But that's not to say you can't raise back more with a bit of concentration.

I agree it's stupid that a Vampire can crumble from skeletons dying around it. It doesn't make sense, but from the perspective of game balance I can respect it. If they changed this somehow it would have to be balanced out with a negative rule. You can't just fix things for fluff and leave it alone.

 

[Archamedius]

Im not running my hexwraiths headlong into units that kill em. Try avoiding a 24" Doombolt from a fastcav-casting unit.... He is ALWAYS in position to cast on them and there is hardly anything to counter it. Targetsaturation doesnt work with him since whatever happens, he is going to Doombolt-hunt a unit of 10 hexwraiths in the first 2 tuns. I usually end up blasting my scroll and all my dice against this but an increased Doombolt with 4d6 S5 hits cast on IF is simply game over for anything that is getting hit.

Hey Guys, I am new here (First post wheee!) and new to Vampire Counts as a whole (Long time Dark Elf Player, needed to branch out and try another army), so I don't have a lot to add to the conversation about the pros and cons of Crumble, however the discussion is quite interesting to me as a new player, looking to learn the pitfalls and things to avoid before I start playing them heavily.

I do have some questions though regarding this discussion of Hexwraiths as I really like the unit and plan on fielding 1 or more likely 2 units of them.

1) How is your DE player getting 24" range doombolts? It's 18" in the spell description. Also, warlocks do not have magical attacks inherent so if he is getting inside 18" of your hexwraiths why not follow up charge him on the following turn? He cannot hurt you and if he actually has enough to get a rank bonus he is out spending you on that unit significantly. (25 points a model for warlocks, no banner option). He cannot actually touch you in close combat so even 1 hexwraith can wear down that unit. What am I missing from this exchange?

2) How can an organ gun actually hurt hexwraiths at all? Even if it gets the rune that makes the attacks flaming, as I understand it, flaming attacks are not inherently magical. So it should fail to wound the hexwraiths.

3) If he is throwing so many dice at doombolt shouldn't you be forcing his hand in other areas? Word of Pain is an amazing spell, the most amazing spell in the Dark Elf Arsenal, by far. If he isn't casting it on your elite combat troops because he is busy chasing your hexwraiths, shouldn't you be forcing his hand elsewhere? If he is running all fast cav avoidance, why not spread your troops out wide and prevent his from getting around you? keep the units one inch apart and march across the board in a line preventing him from getting around your flanks? What am I missing?

EDIT: 4) I thought IoN targeted all units within 6,12,18; doesn't a character count as a unit?

Anyways thanks for letting me hijack the thread a bit and ask some nooby questions.

Arch

 

[SothaMortis]

I think crumble is needed for undead armies because of all the benefitial rules it comes with. Would prefer if crumble was a LD test on the units own unmodified LD though. Zombies and skellies who are easily raised would still crumble horribly while vampiric and/or characters shouldn't suffer from crumble or atleast get a save against it. I think it would balance it out.

I think it all is a bit broken when it comes to ethereals. Even if you can't hurt them you can still obliterate them with combat resolution which is odd. You wave at the air untill the spirits dissipate?

 

[Skittelz1981]

Hey Guys, I am new here (First post wheee!) and new to Vampire Counts as a whole (Long time Dark Elf Player, needed to branch out and try another army), so I don't have a lot to add to the conversation about the pros and cons of Crumble, however the discussion is quite interesting to me as a new player, looking to learn the pitfalls and things to avoid before I start playing them heavily.

I do have some questions though regarding this discussion of Hexwraiths as I really like the unit and plan on fielding 1 or more likely 2 units of them.

1) How is your DE player getting 24" range doombolts? It's 18" in the spell description. Also, warlocks do not have magical attacks inherent so if he is getting inside 18" of your hexwraiths why not follow up charge him on the following turn? He cannot hurt you and if he actually has enough to get a rank bonus he is out spending you on that unit significantly. (25 points a model for warlocks, no banner option). He cannot actually touch you in close combat so even 1 hexwraith can wear down that unit. What am I missing from this exchange?

2) How can an organ gun actually hurt hexwraiths at all? Even if it gets the rune that makes the attacks flaming, as I understand it, flaming attacks are not inherently magical. So it should fail to wound the hexwraiths.

3) If he is throwing so many dice at doombolt shouldn't you be forcing his hand in other areas? Word of Pain is an amazing spell, the most amazing spell in the Dark Elf Arsenal, by far. If he isn't casting it on your elite combat troops because he is busy chasing your hexwraiths, shouldn't you be forcing his hand elsewhere? If he is running all fast cav avoidance, why not spread your troops out wide and prevent his from getting around you? keep the units one inch apart and march across the board in a line preventing him from getting around your flanks? What am I missing?

EDIT: 4) I thought IoN targeted all units within 6,12,18; doesn't a character count as a unit?

Anyways thanks for letting me hijack the thread a bit and ask some nooby questions.

Arch

1. 18" is still alot. its a fastcav lvl2 wizards that can easily position itself outside any chargingrange or behind redirectors like darkriders or out of the frontal arc. 18" is not a chargerange, that makes you roll 10 on a charge which is likely to result in a failed charge. Ofc he is avoiding any type of direct confrontation. Also, Dark steeds have movement 9, so their 18" march makes them better at movement than hexies.

2. Organ guns have runes, just like any other dwarven weapon. thus become magical.

3. Forcing his hand in other areas? first 2 turns dont see combat, so what else is there to do? Nothing but throwing all you have at Doombolt. He sometimes even picks it with a sorceress lvl4 as well that has another +1 to casting result when casting Dark lore. So theres a nice 3x Doombolt.
The first 2 turns there are no interesting spells for him to cast other than this. Word of Pain is nice and all but becomes only useful when combat is actually imminent or already happening. This guy unfortunately also has an annoying dice-swag that often gives him near double pdice to my dispeldice and then manages to roll well for his spells. If the first 2 turns go his way for the winds, my hexies are usually obliterated if not cut down to such a small number that they are not a real threat anymore, either outcome is good for him.


4. p.26 AB, Resurrecting Fallen warriors.
at the end, third alinea; "Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost wounds cannot heal character on their mounts. If a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost wounds. "
So in many a case, IoN becomes useless on your characters in units if they have for some reaons lost a wound. Ofc theyre not crumbling when in a unit, but IoN is useless as well. If i put a VL on hellsteed and charge something, then IoN is useless as well, even though i might be crumbling....... I think this specifically portrays how retarded Crumble is if even our signature spell cannot heal a mounted character. "Oh my Lord on Zombie Dragon crumbled a 2 wounds due to GG losing abit too many models, now IoN isnt gonna help me, only the lore attribute" n*##@ please!

 

[Banshee Talespinner]

Actually, a good battle against Woodies will uncover another weirdness about Crumble. When the foe trains 5-6 ten-man archer blocks on your rank and file, chaff, cav and monsters, and they get sandpapered into dust, they don't suffer Crumble in the shooting phase, even though that's when most of your models expire. So entire ranks can get pincushioned without Crumble effect, but we lost CSR by two so only in CC do we lose two extra models. Huh?

We will see how your Hexies do against WE with 60 enchanted arrows, any of which can slay a Hexie, and Treekin/men that have nothing but magical attacks. And they have Wizards with multiple flavors of magic missiles. A 5-man of wildriders has no magic weapons, but can acquire them for a round with the help of a Fire Wizard, and it can slay a TG outright in one turn. So what target does the Hexwraith unit focus?

 

[Dread Fury]

Hi. New to the forum and still pretty green to WH. BUT, i had to learn my VC army fast. I started playing with a friend of mine a few years back, and his first choice of army was the dreaded and most aggravating Skaven Horde. I lost so many games while trying to get a feeling for the vampire count's MANY play styles, but I've won quite a few as well. Yeah, most of my wins depended on my opponents shit rolls, but a chunk of it was attributed to steadfast and Invo.
Somebody in this thread mentioned that crumbling balances quite nicely with Invo and the Vampire lore attribute, and I couldn't agree more. Another member mentioned that Vampires shouldn't crumble. That's interesting. I agree. Maybe it would make more sense if certain units were given a special rule called "Decay" (which would be the majority of the army). Vampires would be eliminated from that of course. But then again, I've seen a vampire lord obliterate entire units when strapped with a 4+ ward, 3+ AS, Red Fury, quick blood, and a sword that grants an additional 2 S. With all the wounds he was dealing, he was regaining his wounds with the Hunger after every combat (if he even had any dealt to him that round).
Also, I'd much rather crumble a few for combat loss then have to worry about being overun. Yeah, there are restrictions to how you play because of it. It wouldn't be wise to charge with a block of zombies and flank with a Varghulf or whatever, but another great thing about this army is that you tailor your list so that you don't have to.
I've proxied my models to play a bunch of other armies, and the undead rule does change how you play the game. Completely. If you don't like it, adapt or change armies. I'll gladly buy your models at a fair price.

Question: when I see BK written, is it referring to Black Knights or Blood Knights?

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Target saturation. Be aware of spell ranges. Move them away from threats and then up, usually as a denied flank. Also, stopping the right spells and letting others through. Most armies only have a handful of magic muscles and direct damage. Put more immediate threats on the wizard. For example, varghiests moving up as a flanker can force your opponent to react and divid or distract them. Again, so many little things. I also shove my vampire's unit up into a soft spot in their army. He draws attention and heat fast. Some of which comes off the hexies.

My hexxies ALWAYS get prioritized by my opponents over my vargheists, since the vargs can be dealt with in combat and don't have any armour. The only upside has been that they'll eat a Fiery Convocation or something instead of my grave guard.

I think it might also have to do with my meta. There's a couple wood elf players who everyone is struggling to deal with, so there are LOTS of magic missiles around right now. Not a good time to be a hex wraith. I ended up swapping them out for crypt horrors, which serve a different purpose but I think will be just as effective in their own way. We'll see.

 

[najo]

Perhaps I just haven't figured out how to use them, but think I've had one game where my hex wraiths survived past turn 4. They're the first thing that people magic missile, and so many armies these days have magic shooting that it's ridiculous.

Perhaps that's just the opponents I'm facing though. Warriors, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, Bretonnia (with heavens). They evaporate before I can even use them.

Im not running my hexwraiths headlong into units that kill em. Try avoiding a 24" Doombolt from a fastcav-casting unit.... He is ALWAYS in position to cast on them and there is hardly anything to counter it. Targetsaturation doesnt work with him since whatever happens, he is going to Doombolt-hunt a unit of 10 hexwraiths in the first 2 tuns. I usually end up blasting my scroll and all my dice against this but an increased Doombolt with 4d6 S5 hits cast on IF is simply game over for anything that is getting hit.

Hope I didn't come off snarky, I was being playful with that first sentence.

The solution to your situation is to put other threats between the hexwraiths and the warlocks so when the warlocks move into range to doombolt the hex wraiths, the bring themselves into charge range of varghiests, spell range of gaze of nagash, scream range of banshee or TG, charge range of wraith or mini vamp, etc. Make it so he comes through your minefield to get them.

 

[najo]

My hexxies ALWAYS get prioritized by my opponents over my vargheists, since the vargs can be dealt with in combat and don't have any armour. The only upside has been that they'll eat a Fiery Convocation or something instead of my grave guard.

I think it might also have to do with my meta. There's a couple wood elf players who everyone is struggling to deal with, so there are LOTS of magic missiles around right now. Not a good time to be a hex wraith. I ended up swapping them out for crypt horrors, which serve a different purpose but I think will be just as effective in their own way. We'll see.

I agree that the meta can affect things a lot. Wood elves make hexwraiths pop easily. I haven't had an opportunity to play against the new wood elves yet. I need to before ofcc!

 

[najo]

Hi. New to the forum and still pretty green to WH. BUT, i had to learn my VC army fast. I started playing with a friend of mine a few years back, and his first choice of army was the dreaded and most aggravating Skaven Horde. I lost so many games while trying to get a feeling for the vampire count's MANY play styles, but I've won quite a few as well. Yeah, most of my wins depended on my opponents shit rolls, but a chunk of it was attributed to steadfast and Invo.
Somebody in this thread mentioned that crumbling balances quite nicely with Invo and the Vampire lore attribute, and I couldn't agree more. Another member mentioned that Vampires shouldn't crumble. That's interesting. I agree. Maybe it would make more sense if certain units were given a special rule called "Decay" (which would be the majority of the army). Vampires would be eliminated from that of course. But then again, I've seen a vampire lord obliterate entire units when strapped with a 4+ ward, 3+ AS, Red Fury, quick blood, and a sword that grants an additional 2 S. With all the wounds he was dealing, he was regaining his wounds with the Hunger after every combat (if he even had any dealt to him that round).
Also, I'd much rather crumble a few for combat loss then have to worry about being overun. Yeah, there are restrictions to how you play because of it. It wouldn't be wise to charge with a block of zombies and flank with a Varghulf or whatever, but another great thing about this army is that you tailor your list so that you don't have to.
I've proxied my models to play a bunch of other armies, and the undead rule does change how you play the game. Completely. If you don't like it, adapt or change armies. I'll gladly buy your models at a fair price.

Question: when I see BK written, is it referring to Black Knights or Blood Knights?

Lol, I forget to use hunger more often than I care to admit. Part of the reason is my vampires rarely get hurt as I pick on wimpy rank and file.

BK = black knight.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I agree that the meta can affect things a lot. Wood elves make hexwraiths pop easily. I haven't had an opportunity to play against the new wood elves yet. I need to before ofcc!

Chop! isn't bringing any woodies, so you might be safe

The all-cav list probably won't make a showing though, since that list is fucking horrid and NOT in the spirit of a fun event, while the gunline is comped. I think any WE list that gets played will be totally reasonable.

But yeah, when your meta is Woodies, Warriors, Demons, Lizzies, and Skaven, there is basically no reason to take the hex wraiths ever lol. <grumble>

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Lol, I forget to use hunger more often than I care to admit. Part of the reason is my vampires rarely get hurt as I pick on wimpy rank and file.

BK = black knight.

I have remembered to roll for the Hunger...um...never. I'll have to find a way to enjoy doing it, since that's the only way I remember. I've never forgotten to make an opponent roll for fear once I really got into saying it.

 

[najo]

Chop! isn't bringing any woodies, so you might be safe :tongue:

The all-cav list probably won't make a showing though, since that list is fucking horrid and NOT in the spirit of a fun event, while the gunline is comped. I think any WE list that gets played will be totally reasonable.

But yeah, when your meta is Woodies, Warriors, Demons, Lizzies, and Skaven, there is basically no reason to take the hex wraiths ever lol. <grumble>

I play hexwraiths against warriors, deamons, lizardmen and skaven all the time. Now to be fair, the skaven player I play against doesn't use the gun teams. But the other stuff, where you having problems? Daemons for example, take out the Khannons and then just do ride throughs on the chaff and hunter units. In fact, couple games back I got my hexies to run over the Khannon. They didn't kill it, but they damaged it and then the Varghiests over ran into it.

 

[SothaMortis]

Think the crumble discussion got very hexwraith focused.

The poll is up to 20 voters now atleast! Any more ideas on how to improve the current crumble rule?

 

[Blutsauger]

The problem with everything you just said is it that it doesn't consider game balance at all.

If your troops didn't crumble within 12" of a Vampire/necromancer or 18" of a general then there would basically be no crumbling at all. So we would have unbreakable troops that don't crumble and can be raised with IoN.

I can also buy it from a fluff perspective. You compare it to a zombie movie, but keep in mind the rules for zombies aren't always the same. It is after all a fictitious creature. In the world of Warhammer you have a horde of undead minions not brought back by a curse or a disease but by magic from one being. Not an easy task. Having to maintain control of that link would be difficult and when minions die that link is weakened and others go down as well. But that's not to say you can't raise back more with a bit of concentration.

I agree it's stupid that a Vampire can crumble from skeletons dying around it. It doesn't make sense, but from the perspective of game balance I can respect it. If they changed this somehow it would have to be balanced out with a negative rule. You can't just fix things for fluff and leave it alone.

That's why I prefaced it with "In a perfect world". You'd have to find other ways to balance it, like increasing the points cost for our core. It would come with it's own limitations, however, since many of our units would be unable to move away from our core infantry, where our Necromancers are bunkered down. And if we lost a necromancer, then heaven help us. You'd have to fiddle around with points values and consider adding other rules, but at least it would make much more sense and be much more consistent with the background.

 

[najo]

Think the crumble discussion got very hexwraith focused.

The poll is up to 20 voters now atleast! Any more ideas on how to improve the current crumble rule?

The discussion is meant to focus on how to handle crumble during a game. List your problems you are having with crumble and let's see if we can solve it as the rule currently is.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Dont worry Najo, im not easily offended. Within my group offending is rule and commonly used all the time. And it goes into places where many, many another person would long have gotten angry or violent.
I can manage and even sometimes enjoy other peoples attitudes. I got one myself so i cant be upset about someone else's erv:
But since it wasnt the case or your intent it matters not.
I enjoy reading your posts!

 

[Dread Fury]

BK = black knight.

Thanks Najo

 

[Skittelz1981]

Thanks Najo

If im not mistaken BKK stands for BloodKnight.
There was a topic about this months ago, where all abbreviations that were not yet clear or given the abbreviations color were to be reconsidered. Outcome was:
BK=Black Knight
BKK= Blood Knight


Btw it would be nice if those abbreviations were once again shown with their (possible) meanings when hovering over it. I will tell DoN see what he can do

 

[Dread Fury]

TY Skittelz.

Ok, I have a question about crumbling when multiple units have engaged close combat with one enemy unit. I've been playing it so that every friendly unit crumbles the entire amount of points lost in CR (i.e; if CR is lost by 3, then 3 wounds are lost from the front unit and three wounds are lost from the flank unit(s) individually).

Please tell me I've been gravely mistaken (puns). if so, then that opens up sooo many possibilities for me.

 

[Skittelz1981]

no, unfortunately thats how Crumble works. Just as an enemy would be forced to take multiple leadership tests for losing the combat.
So the trick is for us: Never combo-charge. At least not with a CR-bleeding unit like zombies or skeletons together with a hardhitter of any kind.

 

[Dread Fury]

*sigh* Fortunately, I've been able to adapt...
But hey, it makes sense.

 

[najo]

Its important to note that crumble/unstable works slightly different with mounts and individual characters. With mounts, the mount takes all the crumble and then his rider takes the remaining crumble. With individual characters, you deal crumble to the unit they are in first. Remaining crumble is then divided equally across the characters as their owner chooses. Characters completely on their own, but in the same combat, divide the full crumble amongst them.

So really, multiple characters offer each other some protection to each other and mounts take the brunt of the crumble from their riders.

 

[hairyjeff]

Thinking about the whole crumble issue..... three things seem to dominate all discussions.
first, we basically can't march out of trouble.
second, our characters crumble when they shouldn't.
third , stead fast doesn't help.
So my ideas are that 1) stead fast cancels crumble, but only if there are ranks of equal or more numbers than the opponent
reason- there is sufficient "pool" of magical energy to resist the crumble, and it gives a new tactical option to horde, or not?
2)magician characters and vampiric units never crumble, but can be forced to flee and take their chances (like any other character) on being run down.
reason- they are magicians- they will use as much power as possible to protect themselves.
3) a magician in a unit can elect to use any TWO abilities in a turn- cast spells, OR cancel crumble in his unit, OR march his unit, OR charge his unit.
reason-he/she can concentrate on only so much at a time- which is going to be more valuable in any given turn?

We have tried these a couple of times vs Orcs and HE, they work, but don't seem to obliterate the enemy- you have some difficult choices, especially in later turns.
I'd like some feed back- particularly against other armies.

 

[hairyjeff]

Thinking about the whole crumble issue..... three things seem to dominate all discussions.
first, we basically can't march out of trouble.
second, our characters crumble when they shouldn't.
third , stead fast doesn't help.
So my ideas are that 1) stead fast cancels crumble, but only if there are ranks of equal or more numbers than the opponent
reason- there is sufficient "pool" of magical energy to resist the crumble, and it gives a new tactical option to horde, or not?
2)magician characters and vampiric units never crumble, but can be forced to flee and take their chances (like any other character) on being run down.
reason- they are magicians- they will use as much power as possible to protect themselves.
3) a magician in a unit can elect to use any TWO abilities in a turn- cast spells, OR cancel crumble in his unit, OR march his unit, OR charge his unit.
reason-he/she can concentrate on only so much at a time- which is going to be more valuable in any given turn?

We have tried these a couple of times vs Orcs and HE, they work, but don't seem to obliterate the enemy- you have some difficult choices, especially in later turns.
I'd like some feed back- particularly against other armies.