LoU - Summoning, Troop Types & Summoned Characters

[VonDookie]

Just throwing this out there... Looking for feedback.

Nagash's troop type is classified as a Monster (Special Character)...

Not going to try to make a solid argument at the present, because I don't have my books with me (So I can't exactly provide quotes). But, could it stand to reason that if a wizard has enough LoU tokens, or if Arkhan makes a successful casting attempt at summoning a 'monster' - could that monster be Nagash himself, mid-game?

The special characters are all listed in the Legions list... so I suppose it really comes down to how you interpret the troop type. Monster (Special Character) is still a 'Monster' at the end of the day.

I know that the topic and contents of this post could be considered a far reach, or WAAC rules lawyering - but I assure you, that's not my intent. Just wanted to hear thoughts on how troop type is parsed/played/considered if ever at all.

I know fluff is no real indicator of rules - but that would certainly fit within the recent fluff.


On a side note - because, I'm sure that this will be brought up. When summoning a character of xx points, the only character that I recall at that points level would be a basic necromancer (from the VC book, at least {Then again, I just got the Nagash book and can't recall if necromancers are in the legions list or not}) - When you summon said necromancer, are they to generate their spell at that moment? Can they then cast whatever spell they generated immediately in the same phase? I can't see why not to either question. Effectively, could you summon necromancer proxies that then 6-dice other spells that are immediately generated? Who cares if they miscast, they award no VP's..

 

[John Rainbow]

As I haven't read the complete rules yet I want to add another Q here as it seems relevant, can you kit out any characters/units you summon or are they simply basic with no upgrades?

 

[lord marcus]

As I haven't read the complete rules yet I want to add another Q here as it seems relevant, can you kit out any characters/units you summon or are they simply basic with no upgrades?

IIRC you can kit them out with any of the options within their army list entry.

 

[John Rainbow]

IIRC you can kit them out with any of the options within their army list entry.

Sweet. That is pretty cool.

 

[lord marcus]

Sweet. That is pretty cool.

That it is. i will double check when i get home to my books.

problem i see is the time it would take to kit them all out - in game.

 

[Alabaster427]

Just throwing this out there... Looking for feedback.

Nagash's troop type is classified as a Monster (Special Character)...

Not going to try to make a solid argument at the present, because I don't have my books with me (So I can't exactly provide quotes). But, could it stand to reason that if a wizard has enough LoU tokens, or if Arkhan makes a successful casting attempt at summoning a 'monster' - could that monster be Nagash himself, mid-game?

The special characters are all listed in the Legions list... so I suppose it really comes down to how you interpret the troop type. Monster (Special Character) is still a 'Monster' at the end of the day.

I know that the topic and contents of this post could be considered a far reach, or WAAC rules lawyering - but I assure you, that's not my intent. Just wanted to hear thoughts on how troop type is parsed/played/considered if ever at all.

I know fluff is no real indicator of rules - but that would certainly fit within the recent fluff.


On a side note - because, I'm sure that this will be brought up. When summoning a character of xx points, the only character that I recall at that points level would be a basic necromancer (from the VC book, at least {Then again, I just got the Nagash book and can't recall if necromancers are in the legions list or not}) - When you summon said necromancer, are they to generate their spell at that moment? Can they then cast whatever spell they generated immediately in the same phase? I can't see why not to either question. Effectively, could you summon necromancer proxies that then 6-dice other spells that are immediately generated? Who cares if they miscast, they award no VP's..

For 65 points, you can summon a basic Necromancer, Cairn Wraith, Necrotect, or a Tomb Herald. As far as the spell generation goes, that seems to be the consensus (that they generate spells immediately and then can cast).

 

[Alabaster427]

For 65 points, you can summon a basic Necromancer, Cairn Wraith, Necrotect, or a Tomb Herald. As far as the spell generation goes, that seems to be the consensus (that they generate spells immediately and then can cast).

Additionally, I just realized that you could also summon a BSB...

 

[dongilles]

Just throwing this out there... Looking for feedback.

Nagash's troop type is classified as a Monster (Special Character)...

Not going to try to make a solid argument at the present, because I don't have my books with me (So I can't exactly provide quotes). But, could it stand to reason that if a wizard has enough LoU tokens, or if Arkhan makes a successful casting attempt at summoning a 'monster' - could that monster be Nagash himself, mid-game?

The special characters are all listed in the Legions list... so I suppose it really comes down to how you interpret the troop type. Monster (Special Character) is still a 'Monster' at the end of the day.

I know that the topic and contents of this post could be considered a far reach, or WAAC rules lawyering - but I assure you, that's not my intent. Just wanted to hear thoughts on how troop type is parsed/played/considered if ever at all.

I know fluff is no real indicator of rules - but that would certainly fit within the recent fluff.


On a side note - because, I'm sure that this will be brought up. When summoning a character of xx points, the only character that I recall at that points level would be a basic necromancer (from the VC book, at least {Then again, I just got the Nagash book and can't recall if necromancers are in the legions list or not}) - When you summon said necromancer, are they to generate their spell at that moment? Can they then cast whatever spell they generated immediately in the same phase? I can't see why not to either question. Effectively, could you summon necromancer proxies that then 6-dice other spells that are immediately generated? Who cares if they miscast, they award no VP's..

I think; there is only one spell that can summon Characters and that is the unbuffed Kandorak – The Harbinger. I don't know who I can explain why...

 

[John Rainbow]

Do summoned units count for VPs when killed?

 

[Alabaster427]

Do summoned units count for VPs when killed?

Under no circumstances does a summoned unit, creature, or character count for any VPs. So you could summon that BSB and if he gets killed, no points. The question is: Once said summoned BSB is killed, could you then summon another?

 

[John Rainbow]

Under no circumstances does a summoned unit, creature, or character count for any VPs. So you could summon that BSB and if he gets killed, no points. The question is: Once said summoned BSB is killed, could you then summon another?

Just for my own sake and when playing games, do you have a reference for this?

 

[Alabaster427]

@John Rainbow It's on page 14 of the End Times rulebook under Summoning Spells. Reference the below pic. The rule states that all things summoned are "units," so this would include characters, monsters, chariots, etc., which I guess answers my previous question as to whether a summoned character could be placed inside a unit (answer being NO, because you can't place a unit inside a unit). However, GW may easily FAQ that.

 

[VonDookie]

"Summoned units can be upgraded to include any options listed in their army list entries, but must adhere to their minimum unit sizes as normal."

In that case, could I potentially summon a vampire lord, with...:

- vampiric powers?
- a mount?
- magic items?

all of which are listed under 'options' - and seem to fit well within the parameters/rules. Obviously, a ~450pt Vampire Lord will require a lot of tokens for any ol regular caster, but for say... Nagash - you could more easily get this guy/girl on the battlefield since you're tripling the points of the summon.

 

[Alabaster427]

"Summoned units can be upgraded to include any options listed in their army list entries, but must adhere to their minimum unit sizes as normal."

In that case, could I potentially summon a vampire lord, with...:

- vampiric powers?
- a mount?
- magic items?

all of which are listed under 'options' - and seem to fit well within the parameters/rules. Obviously, a ~450pt Vampire Lord will require a lot of tokens for any ol regular caster, but for say... Nagash - you could more easily get this guy/girl on the battlefield since you're tripling the points of the summon.

That's how everyone seems to read it. This is also why I think it's legal to summon a BSB...

 

[John Rainbow]

Thanks Alabaster427

 

[Skittelz1981]

Answer to the question of the OP regarding summoning Nagash, i havent found anything that prohibits summoning named characters. The only thing i find hard to believe is that youre going to be able to summon a 1000 pts monster, even with a bunch of tokens.
Kandorak - The Harbinger is the only spell that allows to summon a Monster, this is the 24+ castingvalue increased version of the spell but allows to summon only 200 points. So you will need a ton of tokens to be able to summon Nagash, so many you will never be able to reach it within 6 rounds.... Not even a Mortarch will be among your options of summoning.
Sure Arkhan has a bonus, so you can summon 400 pts monster, but even then you will need 60 tokens to summon Nagash... and 25 tokens to summon a Mortarch..... Good luck with that.
I dont expect to see more than 10 tokens stacked during a game (which is already quite alot coz that means 10 succesful spells have already been cast). 5-6 tokens is a more realistic approach, maybe after 3 rounds of magic. Thats 2 succesful spells/phase. Or lucky strike with extra tokens due to some of the LoU spells.

 

[Archamedius]

Answer to the question of the OP regarding summoning Nagash, i havent found anything that prohibits summoning named characters. The only thing i find hard to believe is that youre going to be able to summon a 1000 pts monster, even with a bunch of tokens.
Kandorak - The Harbinger is the only spell that allows to summon a Monster, this is the 24+ castingvalue increased version of the spell but allows to summon only 200 points. So you will need a ton of tokens to be able to summon Nagash, so many you will never be able to reach it within 6 rounds.... Not even a Mortarch will be among your options of summoning.
Sure Arkhan has a bonus, so you can summon 400 pts monster, but even then you will need 60 tokens to summon Nagash... and 25 tokens to summon a Mortarch..... Good luck with that.
I dont expect to see more than 10 tokens stacked during a game (which is already quite alot coz that means 10 succesful spells have already been cast). 5-6 tokens is a more realistic approach, maybe after 3 rounds of magic. Thats 2 succesful spells/phase. Or lucky strike with extra tokens due to some of the LoU spells.

I am pretty sure Arkhan doubles token points (from 10 to 20) much like how Nagash triples them. Also Some of the spells (most notably the non summoning ones) grant more than 1 token as part of the spell's mechanics.

Getting 10 in a game still feels very unlikely.

 

[Skittelz1981]

True idd, even the tokens get doubled, but even then summoning Nagash is pretty much out of reach.
If you play with Nagash it might turn out possible to summon a Mortarch in turn 2...
imagine that, suddenly in turn 2 Neferata gets summoned and enters the battlefield..... that is some hardcore pwnage

 

[BarbariAndy]

Using Kandorak - The Harbinger, would Nagash be summoned using the 10+ casting of the spell (as a character) or using the 24+ casting (as a monster)?

 

[Alabaster427]

Using Kandorak - The Harbinger, would Nagash be summoned using the 10+ casting of the spell (as a character) or using the 24+ casting (as a monster)?

Well, theoretically speaking, Nagash would be the only one to have enough power to summon 1,000 points, and even then, you would have to be playing watchtower and go like 9 turns to do so.

Even if you have Arkhan... you would need to be playing watchtower, to get at least 10 power dice each turn, at least five tokens per turn, never use any tokens, finally get enough to cast on the sixth turn, then cast without getting dispelled on the seventh turn. The easiest way to accomplish this is to also have something to replenish power dice like Lore of Death, but at this point, I would say that you are spending way too much on wizards, and in the 7th turn or so, he's not going to do much in the ways of changing outcome.

To answer your question, he would be summoned by the character value. Otherwise, you could summon a Vampire with on a Nightmare with the cavalry spell.

 

[Demian]

If only we could summon Konrad... =(

Nagash can only be summoned via the augmented Kandorak... "easily" why? because the normal version of the spell is the one allowing you to summon a Character (regardless of troop type), but with a 65 pt limit. The Augmented version of Kandorak only allows us to summon a Monster, Chariot or War Machine of up to 200 pts, but no Characters can be summoned, unless they are Monsters, Chariots or War Machines themselves:

ie: A Coven Throne, yay!, but a Vampire Lord on foot? nay!

Is this weird to you too? D:

 

[Alabaster427]

If only we could summon Konrad... =(

Nagash can only be summoned via the augmented Kandorak... "easily" why? because the normal version of the spell is the one allowing you to summon a Character (regardless of troop type), but with a 65 pt limit. The Augmented version of Kandorak only allows us to summon a Monster, Chariot or War Machine of up to 200 pts, but no Characters can be summoned, unless they are Monsters, Chariots or War Machines themselves:

ie: A Coven Throne, yay!, but a Vampire Lord on foot? nay!

Is this weird to you too? D:

I guess that you might be able to summon Nagash using the Monster version, but it doesn't quite work out right in my head. Anyways, you wouldn't be able to summon a Coven Throne with the chariot spell because the CT is only an upgrade for a vampire; it has no listing on it's own. The same logic applies to the Vampire riding a Nightmare or AT. You have to get the vampire first, then you can upgrade it how you see fit; you can't get the spell for the mount and then upgrade it with a vampire.

 

[Demian]

I guess that you might be able to summon Nagash using the Monster version, but it doesn't quite work out right in my head. Anyways, you wouldn't be able to summon a Coven Throne with the chariot spell because the CT is only an upgrade for a vampire; it has no listing on it's own. The same logic applies to the Vampire riding a Nightmare or AT. You have to get the vampire first, then you can upgrade it how you see fit; you can't get the spell for the mount and then upgrade it with a vampire.

Nnnnnnnnooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuu D:

Well, it makes sense that you can't abuse the Lore of Undeath spells to summon a blenderlord. Only Nagash himself would be able to summon a 195 + tokens points worth of Characters, one of them being Krell himself with 4 tokens I suppose.

The lore is meant for summoning an army, not their best commanders I guess .o.


EDIT: this is obviously out of the question but... can Nagash summon himself 36'' away from the casting point, teleporting?

*Duplicate Special Characters are not allowed -_-

 

[Alabaster427]

Nnnnnnnnooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuu D:

Well, it makes sense that you can't abuse the Lore of Undeath spells to summon a blenderlord. Only Nagash himself would be able to summon a 195 + tokens points worth of Characters, one of them being Krell himself with 4 tokens I suppose.

The lore is meant for summoning an army, not their best commanders I guess .o.


EDIT: this is obviously out of the question but... can Nagash summon himself 36'' away from the casting point, teleporting?

*Duplicate Special Characters are not allowed -_-

1. Nagash only needs two tokens to summon Krell because he triples their points.
2. Correct, though Nagash could still summon the Mortarchs (save Vlad) fairly easily with monster spell with the combined profiles that they have (using the same logic as you provided above)...
3. 'twould be sweet if he could do that, but you would have to use 14 tokens to do so...

 

[Demian]

Yep, the "mounted" Mortarchs specifically say they are Monsters, not mounted Infantry =(

It's so sad that Vlad would need like 11 tokens to be summoned, but Manny comes with only 2 Tokens ( right? D: ) and the amped version.

We should make a compendium for summoning and sticky it, like:

Playing with a regular Undeath Caster?: Summon *this *this and *this
With Arkhan: You can also summon *that and *that
Nagash?: Always summon Arkhan first, then Neffy, then Manny and have a Lord party in a 2000pt game.