End times magic shenanigans

[Woolly.Mammoth]

As for the generation of more than 3 dice, that just seems cheesy to me. I have never personally generated more than 3 outside of channeling.

As for VC relying on it, thats silly, we still have other tools outside of spell generation such as a Blasphemous Tome and Balefire. If I have to pick between mannfred, black priapt and casket of souls in a single list, that doesn't bother me. VC often field more wizards than average as well, so thats more channeling.

I would say that, technically, black priapt is not generation and therefore would go around this rule, keeping dice you have previously generated.

The ability to generate limitless dice puts an emphasis on Purple Sun, Herdstone, & Sacrificial Dagger. This is simply not fun IMO. I'd rather enjoy the new magic rules without having to deal with this new cheese. And as always, I avoid making cheese lists becasue I enjoy winning using tactics, not rule exploitation.

 

[PureSphinx]

As for the generation of more than 3 dice, that just seems cheesy to me. I have never personally generated more than 3 outside of channeling.

As for VC relying on it, thats silly, we still have other tools outside of spell generation such as a Blasphemous Tome and Balefire. If I have to pick between mannfred, black priapt and casket of souls in a single list, that doesn't bother me. VC often field more wizards than average as well, so thats more channeling.

I would say that, technically, black priapt is not generation and therefore would go around this rule, keeping dice you have previously generated.

The ability to generate limitless dice puts an emphasis on Purple Sun, Herdstone, & Sacrificial Dagger. This is simply not fun IMO. I'd rather enjoy the new magic rules without having to deal with this new cheese. And as always, I avoid making cheese lists becasue I enjoy winning using tactics, not rule exploitation.

And here's my thing with this: it's not unlimited. Purple sun can only be cast once per phase regardless of End Times rules, and with he d6 dice limit on casting it's very improbable to go off, and less likely to be IF'd. The Herdstone only gives as many dice as you have Wizards within six inches, so not nearly limitless, and easy to reduce. The Dagger requires sustenance for one, and for two only has a 50/50 chance to give you a single die. So you are essentially killing off X amount of your guys for X / 2 dice, which is a huge investment for some power dice. Sure it's good and it's helpful, but if you want something that breaks the game you're looking in the wrong place.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

Yeah the word "Attempt" changes the dynamic of the rules. But nowhere is an "Attempt" defined. Without being defined you can say anything is an attempt. You could throw a ball at the ceiling and say "that was a successful pass attempt".

You would assume that the proper generation of dice would be a "successful attempt" but its not stated clearly.

Here is something stated clearly: BRB pg 134:
"With the points total agreed, players need to pick their forces using the army list in the relevant Warhammer Armies book, and the system presented here."

If you could pick an army from multiple books, then books would have to be plural.

 

[PureSphinx]

Page 32 of the BRB defines a failed casting attempt as failing to meet the minimum casting value, therefore a successful casting attempt is successfully meeting the minimum value. That's the definition of casting attempt, and in that sentence is no mention of dispel attempts, so lije @Infernal Skull said, it's irrespective of dispels.

Edit: if I say I'm passing the ball to the ceiling or floor or a guy 20 feet away or to nobody it's still a successful attempt so yeah that part is also right. As long as we are twisting wording a "relevant army book" is any army book written by GW so I could mix all my armies.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Still, logic would continue to hold to the fact that a dispel is a failure. While it is correct that the BRB defines a lack of power generation to be a failure, its doesn't explicitly state that a successful dispel isn't also a failure (only that a failed dispel equals a successful cast)
Since the opposite of a success is failure, logic would mean that a a successful dispel means a failed spell. Additionally, for something to be successful, each of its steps must be successful.

The main problem with your argument is that the rule does not require that the spell be "successful" in any way shape or form to be eligible for recasting. The rule's only stipulation is that the casting attempt was not failed.

The casting attempt is the roll to beat the spell's casting difficulty. So, as long as that roll isn't failed, (which is what the rule says) a Wizard can attempt to recast the spell again that phase.

It is perfectly possible for a spell to not fail it's casting attempt and not be successfully cast (because it was subsequently dispelled). That spell can be recast because it follows the requirement of having not failed its casting attempt.

It doesn't matter if the spell wasn't successfully cast because that's not part of the rule. The rule only requires that the casting attempt not fail.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Can you show me where in the Vampire Counts Army Book where it explicitly states that I cannot field a Bloodthirster in my army? It only states that I can use the units in that book in a Vampire Counts army, not explicitly stating that I can't usr anything else.

someone's been reading the undead legions magic item thread.

That bloodthirster argument seems might familiar

And yet it still applies here.

 

[Infernal Skull]

someone's been reading the undead legions magic item thread. :tongue:

That bloodthirster argument seems might familiar

And yet it still applies here.

So, you guys just move pieces of terrain out of the way if they are impeding the movement of one of your units, or blocking LOS to something, right? If not, you've been playing wrong, because the rules don't say anywhere that terrain can't be moved during the course of a game.

There was this one game– My opponent thought his Wizard Lord was safe because a large, impassible castle ruin was directly between my Blood Knights and the wizard. I just picked up the castle and put it back on the shelf, declared the charge, and creamed him! He was all like "Whaaaa?" but couldn't find any rule preventing me from doing that, so he just had to suck it up.

 

[PureSphinx]

someone's been reading the undead legions magic item thread. :tongue:

That bloodthirster argument seems might familiar

And yet it still applies here.

YOU were the one lol I forgot who and where I saw it or else I'd have credited you

And @Infernal Skull we are being facetious and demonstrating why the "rules by exclusion" argument doesn't work. I assume you are as well, but just to be clear for everyone

 

[Yorga]

The rules seems abundantly clear to me. Unsuccessful means you did not meet the casting value. Now that being said...the game gets broken if you use the RAW. But it seems the two camps on this thought cannot agree. So be it. I'm very pissed that they put so much emphasis back into wizards and the magic phase. Seems terribly imbalanced.

 

[PureSphinx]

I disagree. Deathstars break the game as equally as super magic. Avoidance Wood Elves are just as bad. Triple Bloodthirsters. Shadow covens. Light covens. Phoenix/Dragon lists. Banner of the World Dragon. Four Terrorgheists. In fact the only army I can think of that don't already have some kind of idiotically powerful thing is Tomb Kings.

The thing that keeps this new magic from breaking the game is the d6 limits. It doesn't matter how many times you can cast something when you roll one and your opponent rolls six. It doesn't matter that your opponent knows three million spells when you do too. It doesn't matter that your opponent is getting fourteen dice a phase when you are too. The ratio of old magic phase to new magic phase remains the same, even if the numbers are larger.

That said they definitely could have done ten times better, easy. I like some things about regular magic, and some things about End Times magic. For example not being able to six dice big spells makes it easier for my opponents to bring a huge unkillable deathstar and get away with it. On the other hand, the spamming of smaller spells could, if you're lucky, rack up the points just like a big spell. That's the thing though; getting lucky. Like @najo said, there is no more interplay. It's all up to d6 rolls now. It's not necessarily imbalanced, just much different.

 

[Nicreap]

"As for VC relying on it, thats silly"

I was referring more to Tomb Kings, who absolutely have to have a strong magic phase or none of their units can compete, and putting a 3 dice cap is saying Screw you to Tomb Kings armies, because without the ability to create a dice advantage Tomb Kings aren't even bottom tier they are utterly hopeless. I would know I play Tomb Kings, we can't out maneuver our opponent, much less correct a bad matchup without magic, we can't out fight most opponents without magic, and we can't even heal our unit's well without LOTS of magic. I have been playing with death magic, but that is for primarily the hexes, since -3 ld and -1 s/t makes things a lot more manageable. Purple sun can be nice but most armies don't care, however it does turn my crappy I2 skeletons into a boosted magic phase if I really need to get vital spells off and don't have the dice.

As mentioned before, you can cast purple sun once per turn, so I am not sure how you get limitless power dice out of that since that has never been a concern up until now. As far as power of darkness/sacrifical dagger. You never ever play that person again. That is how you deal with it. They will soon have no one to pay with if they take lists like that.


@PureSphinx

What do you mean Tomb Kings don't have anythign OP? The way people reacted to VC getting the casket of souls you would swear it was the most OP item in the game, and that was before considering the magic dice benefit. Or even the reaction people have when you drop 2 of them, even though the power dice doesn't stack. What do you mean you have 2? So I can't shoot your item to stabalize your magic phase off the table turn 1? This is broken!

 

[PureSphinx]

@Nicreap

Yes, casket in a VAMPIRE army is very good. What I was referring to is Tomb Kings, however, not VC or UL. Taking a casket is one of the only ways TK stand a chance at all, period. Like you said: they rely on their magic phase, need as many dice as possible, and even then it's difficult to pull out the win. That's why its not OP in a TK army; it's the bare essentials to survive and keep them on the ranking list. Without it they are far and away the worst army out there, undeserving of even the bottom of the bottom. Combined with their no armor, no marching, low stats, bad heals, and total reliance on magic, the Casket doesn't take them above "okay" whereas other armies are sitting there going "bahahaha good luck fighting this gg." Especially Ogres -.-

 

[Nicreap]

I know I was making a joke, with how much people whined you would think the casket was BotWD level cheese. I play tomb kings as well, and for a couple games i tried fielding 2 caskets because people blowing it up turn 1 wasn't very helpful, and man did i hear so much complaining about it. A good chunk of it from our ogres players. Well how am I suppossed to deal with this? If I can't blow it up turn 1 and stop your magic dominance it's not fair. I was like ya, that's the whole point of bringing two, but why are you whining when your ENTIRE ARMY outclasses mine. I didn't stop fielding 2 because of that but because I wanted to fit other things in my list and 135 points for a second casket was a tad redundant.

 

[Yorga]

The most broken list right now is that of Eternity King. Take a force of the best Dark, High and Wood elves have to offer. Take a Loremaster of Hoeth with the Book of Hoeth. He has access to 56 spells! Not including the EoT spells. I suppose that adds another 8! Now watch as he nickels and dimes off all your dispel dice using the book. There are so many cheap nasty damaging spells, even the worse of the Deathstars can perish in quick order. The way I dealt with deathstars was to chaff them up and avoid them while I dismantled the rest of his army.

 

[Nicreap]

Oh I agree the Combined Elf lists are nasty, especially since they get murdererous prowess and martial prowess, all of a sudden all of their units got more dangerous. I have read through discussions about eternity king army, and the general concensus is there is almost no bad options, once you factor in murderous prowess and martial prowess on all of their units even subpar units get ridiculously more powerful. They can't come up with a net list yet, because they have too many good options, and it all comes down to how you want to play your army. They can easily do all mounted armies now and they would be terrifying with the combination from all 3 books. That is before you even consider what they can do in their magic phase, which I agree with you Yorga is ridiculous. I am curious to see what happens with the next end times book. Maybe the Skaven set off a doomsday device that stabilize the magic rules, I doubt it, but I can hope.

 

[najo]

I disagree. Deathstars break the game as equally as super magic. Avoidance Wood Elves are just as bad. Triple Bloodthirsters. Shadow covens. Light covens. Phoenix/Dragon lists. Banner of the World Dragon. Four Terrorgheists. In fact the only army I can think of that don't already have some kind of idiotically powerful thing is Tomb Kings.

The thing that keeps this new magic from breaking the game is the d6 limits. It doesn't matter how many times you can cast something when you roll one and your opponent rolls six. It doesn't matter that your opponent knows three million spells when you do too. It doesn't matter that your opponent is getting fourteen dice a phase when you are too. The ratio of old magic phase to new magic phase remains the same, even if the numbers are larger.

That said they definitely could have done ten times better, easy. I like some things about regular magic, and some things about End Times magic. For example not being able to six dice big spells makes it easier for my opponents to bring a huge unkillable deathstar and get away with it. On the other hand, the spamming of smaller spells could, if you're lucky, rack up the points just like a big spell. That's the thing though; getting lucky. Like @najo said, there is no more interplay. It's all up to d6 rolls now. It's not necessarily imbalanced, just much different.

I think just getting rid of the D6 before casting and dispel. Change the miscasts so 1-3 dice they are normal. 4-5 dice they do D3 wounds per hit and increase chance of negative results by +1 (ie wizard losing levels or being instant killed). 6+ dice, hits do d6 wounds and +2 to negative results. Then spells can only be recast if successfully cast and not dispelled. Wizards don't get lore master, they automatically know their signature in addition to rolled spells and if level 3+ know their end times spell.

That fixes end time magic. Everything else can be the same.

 

[Seneschal]

The best lists I've seen and dealt with so far in 12 games have been;

-High Lore backed up by a Death Caster. Pretty much what we've seen in SkaveninAz'S Battle Report. Take a bus with both mages, spam walk between worlds and followup with death snipes, a sun, soul quench and the awesome arcane unforging.

-Sac Dagger. 'Nuff said.

-Slaanesh spam. Picture a few heralds casting the hex gives a unit ASL and random movement D6 all game long. Not so much a pain with Danse but other armies have a load of trouble dealing with it.

My record with Khainite magic is 6-4-2. I win through attrition against elf armies as well as making sure I've got a second level 4 in case they try to deadlock me. I listed tactics that have worked for me in the Najo's review of the endtimes magic thread. The important thing is to bring numbers and make the enemy go through the effort of eliminating Raise Dead chaff that you create. Keep your troops healed and your casters protected.

 

[PureSphinx]

I think just getting rid of the D6 before casting and dispel. Change the miscasts so 1-3 dice they are normal. 4-5 dice they do D3 wounds per hit and increase chance of negative results by +1 (ie wizard losing levels or being instant killed). 6+ dice, hits do d6 wounds and +2 to negative results. Then spells can only be recast if successfully cast and not dispelled. Wizards don't get lore master, they automatically know their signature in addition to rolled spells and if level 3+ know their end times spell.

That fixes end time magic. Everything else can be the same.

I agree on everything except the no loremaster thing. I think they should and the pre existing loremasters should get re rolls like it is, but a wizard can't cast more spells than he has wizard levels. So if I am a level one wizard and I cast fireball, I can cast it until it is dispelled, but no other fire spells. If I am a level four wizard and I cast soulblight, I can cast it again until it's dispelled plus three other spells I know.

This seems better to me because in the lore, wizards know all the spells from their Lores and more, plus a million cantrips. But, since the battle is representing real time, only more practiced wizards can push multiple spells through a turn, and are better off casting bigger spells with less miscast risk. I.E. miscasts being worse for more dice like you said and because higher level wizards need less dice.

 

[Alabaster427]

Dispelled counts as failed. If it doesn't, then it opens a whole other debate as what counts as successfully cast.

I'm not trying open or re-open that can of worms but the VC FAQ says that Dark Acolyte happens before a dispel attempt but Dark Acolyte says when successfully cast. Does this change with the new "dispel counts as failed?"

 

[PureSphinx]

I'm not trying open or re-open that can of worms but the VC FAQ says that Dark Acolyte happens before a dispel attempt but Dark Acolyte says when successfully cast. Does this change with the new "dispel counts as failed?"

There is no new "dispel counts as failed." What people are essentially saying is that it needs to be houseruled/FAQ'd/errata'd so that instead of the magic phase being turbo mega ultra f*ck the world spam it's only super spam.

 

[Infernal Skull]

I'm not trying open or re-open that can of worms but the VC FAQ says that Dark Acolyte happens before a dispel attempt but Dark Acolyte says when successfully cast. Does this change with the new "dispel counts as failed?"

No, because there is no new "dispel counts as failure."

 

[PureSphinx]

No, because there is no new "dispel counts as failure."

You can call me captain ninja

 

[Demian]

Just an observation here:

Should we all use the "Dispel negates all further casting attempts of the same spell" rule, Invocation of Nehek and mostly Lore of the Vampires would be completely subpar to Lore of Nehekara, where every augment cast heals units.

D:

 

[Sception]

Pretty much. 'dispel prevents recast' doesn't make these rules good, and especially doesn't make them good for us.

If we're house ruling (which is what 'dispel prevents recast' is), then I still recommend just ditching end times magic and using storm of magic if you want a 'magical apocalypse' scenario game.

 

[Yorga]

A wiser course of action.