You don't use the enhanced versions of spirit leech and the like? I always do. It's only an extra +3 casting value and the spell is a potential game winner.
Storm Fiends, ready for some hot warplead?
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You don't use the enhanced versions of spirit leech and the like? I always do. It's only an extra +3 casting value and the spell is a potential game winner.
Right, the Stormfiends are obviouse quite powerful if not downright overpowered. Compared to our new MI units they're not only good at CC due to their 4 WS4/S5 attack + 1S5 stomp, but also at shooting. I think our new MI are good, but to be great they should've had 4 attacks each. Paying that much and only have 3A/model is kinda absurd and if the Archai version could've had 4A + 1 from AHW they could've been outright slaughter machines with their WS5 and S5. 4 T5 wounds is neat though.
Anyway looking at the only few weaknesses these new stormfiends posses they have:
Low Ld (7).
Low Toughness (4).
Low armour save (atleast the ranged models).
Low BS (3).
Somewhat expensive and a rare choice. Fewer cannons, HBA, Doomwheel and what not.
Their strong points would be:
Decent WS (4).
Ridiculous Initiative (5).
Insane amount of firepower (3D6 each ratling gun choice).
Great amount of wounds (4).
Great amount of attacks (4).
Good strenght (5).
Can stand/move and shoot.
No penalty on long range or for multiple shots.
Skirmishers (can reform freely).
So obviously their strong points highly outnumber their weakness.
If I used my LM I'd just eat them with the skinks and Spirit Leech. Skinks are obviously not possible with VC/UL, but Spirit Leech Ld10 vs 7 means there's a decent chance to pop one.
Alternatively use Misasma and lower their ridiculous BS3, on average they'll be reduced to 1 meaning they have to roll a 6.
If you went with LoD you might also be able to reduce their Strenght by 1 (?).
Should they use the tunnel choice and dig up behind your lines they'll either have to 1) spend even more points for 3 models with ratling guns (340pts!) OR 2) accept that they can *only* shoot 2 x 3D6. On average I'd wager that we're looking at 2 ratling guns.
So the issue with using Vargheists isn't that they'll be shot dead on the Stand and Shoot reaction (since they'll still have a -1 penalty to SaS), but the fact that Stormfiends are ridiculous and will hit us with I5 and S5, so they'll actually die from their CC attacks.
I think a possible solution could *maybe* be a Varghulf. WS5/T5 and regen could result in a lucky Varghulf. It's risky though because even if we assume the ghuf will hit the unit without having taken a wound it'll taken a average of 1,65 wounds on the SaS and another 1,5 wounds before it gets to hit. Statistically that should result in roughly 3 wounds, but if we're unlucky it'll be 4. If can get spirit leech off first from the VL and the varghulf can actually get to attacks we can probably on average remove 6/12 wounds.
Although I haven't accounted for 1) gaining a wound back from the magic phase after the SaS and before combat and 2) one of the fiends will have a boost in combat ? I can't remember all their rules.
I suppose with Terror and against Ld7 terror/fear could do *something*.
The biggest issue for us is that we have no good way of taking the unit out at long range.
The good thing is that it's quite a point heavy unit so there won't be quite the same amount of points fo the rest of their toys.
Alternatively charge 8 crypt horros up their face. They'll take a bit of a beating, but they're easily ressurected and can quite handily out-grind them. These are tbh the only real solution I have. That and magic (spirit leech/gaze of nagash), oh and terrorgheist scream. Oh and if you dare charge a lone vamp lord with a 1+/4+ save and chop them up.
If only they didn't have magical attacks...
Let's not hope the skaven player goes first :0)
Anyway looking at the only few weaknesses these new stormfiends posses they have:
Low Ld (7).
Low Toughness (4).
Low armour save (atleast the ranged models).
Low BS (3).
Somewhat expensive and a rare choice. Fewer cannons, HBA, Doomwheel and what not.
Their strong points would be:
Decent WS (4).
Ridiculous Initiative (5).
Insane amount of firepower (3D6 each ratling gun choice).
Great amount of wounds (4).
Great amount of attacks (4).
Good strenght (5).
Can stand/move and shoot.
No penalty on long range or for multiple shots.
Skirmishers (can reform freely).
So obviously their strong points highly outnumber their weakness.
If I used my LM I'd just eat them with the skinks and Spirit Leech. Skinks are obviously not possible with VC/UL, but Spirit Leech Ld10 vs 7 means there's a decent chance to pop one.
Alternatively use Misasma and lower their ridiculous BS3, on average they'll be reduced to 1 meaning they have to roll a 6.
If you went with LoD you might also be able to reduce their Strenght by 1 (?).
Should they use the tunnel choice and dig up behind your lines they'll either have to 1) spend even more points for 3 models with ratling guns (340pts!) OR 2) accept that they can *only* shoot 2 x 3D6. On average I'd wager that we're looking at 2 ratling guns.
So the issue with using Vargheists isn't that they'll be shot dead on the Stand and Shoot reaction (since they'll still have a -1 penalty to SaS), but the fact that Stormfiends are ridiculous and will hit us with I5 and S5, so they'll actually die from their CC attacks.
I think a possible solution could *maybe* be a Varghulf. WS5/T5 and regen could result in a lucky Varghulf. It's risky though because even if we assume the ghuf will hit the unit without having taken a wound it'll taken a average of 1,65 wounds on the SaS and another 1,5 wounds before it gets to hit. Statistically that should result in roughly 3 wounds, but if we're unlucky it'll be 4. If can get spirit leech off first from the VL and the varghulf can actually get to attacks we can probably on average remove 6/12 wounds.
Although I haven't accounted for 1) gaining a wound back from the magic phase after the SaS and before combat and 2) one of the fiends will have a boost in combat ? I can't remember all their rules.
I suppose with Terror and against Ld7 terror/fear could do *something*.
The biggest issue for us is that we have no good way of taking the unit out at long range.
The good thing is that it's quite a point heavy unit so there won't be quite the same amount of points fo the rest of their toys.
Alternatively charge 8 crypt horros up their face. They'll take a bit of a beating, but they're easily ressurected and can quite handily out-grind them. These are tbh the only real solution I have. That and magic (spirit leech/gaze of nagash), oh and terrorgheist scream. Oh and if you dare charge a lone vamp lord with a 1+/4+ save and chop them up.
If only they didn't have magical attacks...
Let's not hope the skaven player goes first :0)
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Let me eliminate some of these for ya:
-BS3 doesn't mean much when you ignore moving, long range and multiple shots, plus they can stand and shoot.
-They're expensive, but conveniently they're 255 points for 3 which you can replace the Abomination (since its 250 with Warpstone Spikes). That means the rest of the rare slots are pretty standard with 2x WLC and a Doomwheel.
Their only real weakness is the fact they're pretty much naked, T4, 4W and 6+ saves. The Ld.7 is definitely there, but that's average dice and will be re-rolled because of the BSB (no Skaven worth their salt will deploy these far from the Gen/BSB's influence). Death Magic is an option, and so is bubble-wrapping wolves around important units.
In all my games with Skaven vs. VC, I don't think the Terrorgheist has ever been an issue. Between WLC, Doomwheels, average Storm Fiend dice and Storm Banner, the TG is a pretty good looking paperweight.
The-1 to hit is unlikely to occur according to the brb the penalty it's only applied it the model in between the shooter and the target blocks more than 50% of the model being shot at via LoS. Storm vermin ate almost twice as tall a rat ogres, they could easily shoot over a unit of slaves AND your dire wolves, without a -1 to hit, vargeists could probably impose the -1 to hit, but you are still dumping a lot of points into a -1 to hit.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
I kind of thought that too, but that is assuming undead legions, which opens up a whole lot more options, like stalkers to care bear stare them to death, or just letting the casket of souls deal with it. Plus it takes a lot of shots to take them out and skeleton archers will rarely be massed big enough to survive one round of shooting back assuming you actually moved them all the way into range and nothing happened to them.
Ratling cannons have quick to fire.
The height of the model doing the shooting doesn't matter. If I have a kid in front of me that is half my height then he blocks 50% of me, you could be 100 feet tall and the kid still covers 50% of my body. As long as the model you are using for cover is at least half the size of the model you are covering it would apply. Also it is a -2 to hit not a -1, units are hard cover.
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Don't get me wrong, they are awesome models (just got my box) but nothing to be scared of. They are like the most glass cannon unit I've ever seen. A single Tgheist scream will blow a hole in them, next to their Ld7 general or not. Unfortunately any unit is a bad choice, as they will turn and blow them away with shooting. Lots of magic will blow them out - Gaze (or any magic missile), raise dead to continually waste their shooting, death snipes from a necro in massive zombie buffer. If they want to go all ratling, one shadow wiz can neuter them all game with miasma.
Also, To allow 3 ratling cannons you're gonna have to punch WYSIWYG in the gut because not many people are buying 3+ boxes just to go all rattling.
3 of them in a unit will take the role of a Abomb in the skaven army:
Anvil
While they don't have regen, they have twice as many wounds. At 4T they are not as tough so Abomb is a better anvil. Versus fire the SF would fare better, but only becasue they have more wounds to soak up the damage. A couple fireballs would probably do equal hurt on both units, but the SF would lose at least a model and have to flee on 7Ld. Against mass shooting, SF would do great, as they can claim bonuses from walls (there not Large Target) and have -1 due to skirmishers.
Hammer
With strength as much as 7, a CC unit of SF will definitely provide a more reliable wound output, but if they go all rattling a lot of close combats would be bad for them.
Shooting
Obviously impressive shooting. Abomb is still great for catching things like fast cav though since its got crazy random movement that allows it to "charge" from any direction.
SF versus Abomb.
Even if they didn't move, 3 ratling will have an average of 33 shots at 4+ is 17. At 4+ to wound thats 9, and at 4+ Regen thats 5 wounds. On average, an Abomb could stand a full barrage of perfect shots from 3 rattling cannons. But an Abomb can charge without provoking a stand and shoot. The impact hits are wounding on 3+. The SF get to attack first but they first have to pass a terror test on 7Ld. Regardless they wont kill an Abomb, and whatever an Abomb rolls is going to hurt them bad. Where a few wounds isn't going to bother the Abomb, its going to remove models for the SF therefore in the long run, Abomb will likely win. Also the abomb can come back to life just for fun.
Obviously the SF have merrit over an Abomb - powerful shooting is a big deal. I'd much rather have some SF against Wood Elves. Skaven ballistic shooting is actually relatively absent - you dont often see heroes with guns or the gun teams. Most of the shooting revolves around the WLC, which are actually the least accurate cannons in the game - despite being able to shoot through walls, a WLC will not cause the type of guaranteed destruction that standard cannons can. A doomwheel can be fairly easily controlled through smart deployment and use of terrain. Other than that you dont see much shooting, so some shooty SF actually changes up the army quite a bit.
SF also create a new dynamic for skaven - I find frequent opponents bend their points to have great fire options for the Abomb. Now I can show up with some SF instead, so their points in fire are wasted. Your opponent will have no idea whats going to happen... an important change for Skaven who have very limited variation in their lists right now. Now we can show up with double warpfire that appear behind the battleline on turn 2, or a super hammer thats going to punish nearly anything in close combat, etc. Everyone is excited about the rattling rules but I think there a lot of fun diversity to play with here.
Also, To allow 3 ratling cannons you're gonna have to punch WYSIWYG in the gut because not many people are buying 3+ boxes just to go all rattling.
3 of them in a unit will take the role of a Abomb in the skaven army:
Anvil
While they don't have regen, they have twice as many wounds. At 4T they are not as tough so Abomb is a better anvil. Versus fire the SF would fare better, but only becasue they have more wounds to soak up the damage. A couple fireballs would probably do equal hurt on both units, but the SF would lose at least a model and have to flee on 7Ld. Against mass shooting, SF would do great, as they can claim bonuses from walls (there not Large Target) and have -1 due to skirmishers.
Hammer
With strength as much as 7, a CC unit of SF will definitely provide a more reliable wound output, but if they go all rattling a lot of close combats would be bad for them.
Shooting
Obviously impressive shooting. Abomb is still great for catching things like fast cav though since its got crazy random movement that allows it to "charge" from any direction.
SF versus Abomb.
Even if they didn't move, 3 ratling will have an average of 33 shots at 4+ is 17. At 4+ to wound thats 9, and at 4+ Regen thats 5 wounds. On average, an Abomb could stand a full barrage of perfect shots from 3 rattling cannons. But an Abomb can charge without provoking a stand and shoot. The impact hits are wounding on 3+. The SF get to attack first but they first have to pass a terror test on 7Ld. Regardless they wont kill an Abomb, and whatever an Abomb rolls is going to hurt them bad. Where a few wounds isn't going to bother the Abomb, its going to remove models for the SF therefore in the long run, Abomb will likely win. Also the abomb can come back to life just for fun.
Obviously the SF have merrit over an Abomb - powerful shooting is a big deal. I'd much rather have some SF against Wood Elves. Skaven ballistic shooting is actually relatively absent - you dont often see heroes with guns or the gun teams. Most of the shooting revolves around the WLC, which are actually the least accurate cannons in the game - despite being able to shoot through walls, a WLC will not cause the type of guaranteed destruction that standard cannons can. A doomwheel can be fairly easily controlled through smart deployment and use of terrain. Other than that you dont see much shooting, so some shooty SF actually changes up the army quite a bit.
SF also create a new dynamic for skaven - I find frequent opponents bend their points to have great fire options for the Abomb. Now I can show up with some SF instead, so their points in fire are wasted. Your opponent will have no idea whats going to happen... an important change for Skaven who have very limited variation in their lists right now. Now we can show up with double warpfire that appear behind the battleline on turn 2, or a super hammer thats going to punish nearly anything in close combat, etc. Everyone is excited about the rattling rules but I think there a lot of fun diversity to play with here.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
The thing with all of those options is that they are short range, the scariest part about the things that take out stormfiends for VC is that we have to get way too close for it to be effective. A tghiest scream is 8" and there is no way you will be able to turn 1 fly up and yell at them, that would be dumb opponent not good tactic, then the tbat gets blown off the table because its easy as hell to kill. That wizard in a bunker has to be within 24" to target them and averages 2 wounds, that doesn't even kill the one you target.
Every turn they are alive is as devastating as a terrorghiest getting to scream every turn (often much stronger actually) except it has 10 inches more range and can sit safely in the back of the army without the negatives of being a large target.
And lots of magic is not a reasonable counter to anything, magic phases end in one small spell going off at the end or one big one being irresistible most of the time and you cant rely on a multi cast magic phase happening within the first or second turn as your answer.
Infernal Skull
Wight King
That's not accurate. True LOS is drawn from the shooting model's eyes to the target. "If the majority of the models in the target unit is obscured from the shooting model's view by other models or by terrain then an additional To Hit modifier is applied." p.41
So, the relative size of the intervening models doesn't matter, as long as they obscure half the target when looking from the shooter's eyes. The higher the point from which LOS is being drawn, the less the object in front of the target will cover it.
Example: Two cars of equal size, one in front of the other. If you are standing at ground level, the car in front will almost completely cover the car behind it. If you move to the top of the roof so you're looking down toward the cars, the car behind will be more visible. Depending on many factors including how close the cars are to each other, and how high an angle you are looking at them, the car in front may not obscure the rear car from your view at all.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
Assuming some distance a vantage point would allow you to see more of the object behind, but that basically works on distance. the closer the object is is directly relative to the height the shooting model needs to be to see over it assuming the covering model is the same size, it is half that for models half the size (yay easy math).
So I suppose in many instances you are correct, my assertion was under the assumption you were hiding directly behind which means the height you would need to be at would only give you a view of the top of your targets head, which is worse then being on the ground really.
Luckily, this just means you stand right behind your own unit to always get the save. The tactic still works. Outside of the fact I realized the varghiests would actually strike second and may actually lose.
Another funny note about using a models point of view is how obscured that view would actually be sometimes, those stormfiend helmets would cause some major tunnel vision.
I just want to add something to your discussion. vargheists are skirmishers so the SF to hit on a 6+ in a stand and shoot situation. A unit of three with ratling guns will only on avarage kill one vargheist while standing and shooting..
The ranged rats get to reroll their to wound rolls while shooting.
The main problem with gheists is their I, even in CC the rats (rat I5, gheists I4) gets to hit first with 12 WS4 S5 hits resulting in the death of another gheist, this will potentially only lock them in CC one turn..
The ranged rats get to reroll their to wound rolls while shooting.
The main problem with gheists is their I, even in CC the rats (rat I5, gheists I4) gets to hit first with 12 WS4 S5 hits resulting in the death of another gheist, this will potentially only lock them in CC one turn..
The reroll is for CC for the CC equiped SF's, ranged rats reroll to wound in the shooting phase.
With four ghiests you would have 2 left on average do 3 wounds in first round of CC, in total killing one SR before getting destroyed. But using 4 gheists to maybe kill of one SF sounds like a horrible deal to me.
A leech would cause 3 wounds on average, you have to get your wizard in range 24"(boosted), get the spell off, if you roll one better you get to kill one SF.
It was posted on a giant block of text and I am on a phone, but storm fiends do NOT get the-1 to hit when shoot at, can't match and shoot, and CAN claim rank bonuses, no clue why you would ever try though. As mentioned above the ranged versions reroll to wound with ranged attacks, and the close combat ones reroll to hit on all CC attacks, including impact hits and stomps. that means the poison wind glove auto wounds 75% of the models the template touches no armor save allowed.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
The skirmisher rules: "Light troops" and "fire on the march" is negated by the SF's Big and Bulky rule.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
Yes, this is entirely true and a huge game changer for the Skaven. If anything, the Storm Fiends add one important element to the Skaven army and that's list diversity. In a tournament setting, any given play will have to consider fighting double anything from Double Hellpit/Storm Fiend, a standard kit of 2x WLC, Doomwheel + Abom, or replacing the Abom with Stormfiends with the same config. This is a huge deal because knight buses are suddenly a lot more careful and not everyone can deal with the Storm Fiends the same way they would deal with an Abom.
I forgot about the re-rolling to-wound. SF are insane. The rattling cannons would definitely kill an Abomb in one round of shooting.
An Abomb is kind of an anvil, its really tough to kill without fire. It always soaks up tons of shooting because people are very afraid if what its random movement is going to do next. The ranged SF are a total hammer - they are not tough to wound at all. They dont even get -1 to hit from skirmishers. But they pack an insane punch.
Each one is basically a medium range war machine for cheap. A catapult wounds everything on a 5+ with no AS, a wind grenadier does it on 4+ (with re-rolls), can move 6" and still shoot, has one more wound, no missfire table and wrecks in close combat for 15 points less, giving up only toughness and range.
the only problem is that their rules are unclear; whether they can freely reform and still shoot when moving 6" is unknown. I would think that they can - this was probably the reason for giving them skirmishers but opponents will likely argue. According to rules as written they are stubborn in forests as well.
I would think that the most feared combo would be 3 poison grenadiers screened by an abomb. They can move 6" and shoot up to 24", with no penalties since they dont use BS, causing a wound to 75% of everything under the template with no armor saves. Statistically these guys can wipe out just about any unit without ward saves in one turn. They can also hide behind units to protect from shooting. The Abomb will always draw the fire, leaving them to bomb all over the table, even at multiple targets at once given the fact that war machines dont have to declare targets.
An Abomb is kind of an anvil, its really tough to kill without fire. It always soaks up tons of shooting because people are very afraid if what its random movement is going to do next. The ranged SF are a total hammer - they are not tough to wound at all. They dont even get -1 to hit from skirmishers. But they pack an insane punch.
Each one is basically a medium range war machine for cheap. A catapult wounds everything on a 5+ with no AS, a wind grenadier does it on 4+ (with re-rolls), can move 6" and still shoot, has one more wound, no missfire table and wrecks in close combat for 15 points less, giving up only toughness and range.
the only problem is that their rules are unclear; whether they can freely reform and still shoot when moving 6" is unknown. I would think that they can - this was probably the reason for giving them skirmishers but opponents will likely argue. According to rules as written they are stubborn in forests as well.
I would think that the most feared combo would be 3 poison grenadiers screened by an abomb. They can move 6" and shoot up to 24", with no penalties since they dont use BS, causing a wound to 75% of everything under the template with no armor saves. Statistically these guys can wipe out just about any unit without ward saves in one turn. They can also hide behind units to protect from shooting. The Abomb will always draw the fire, leaving them to bomb all over the table, even at multiple targets at once given the fact that war machines dont have to declare targets.
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Pirate Robot Ninja of Death
Vampire Thrall
All the ET units have been excellent (barring the abominations that have rules but no new models), but stormfiends are far and away the best. They bring an interesting new alternative to the Skaven's already-crowded rare section that brings something the army doesn't already have. If they were special they'd be bent as fuck, but being slotted in rare was a brilliant move by the designers.
Infernal Skull
Wight King
Good catch. It is pretty clear, though–
The "Fire On the March" sub-rule of Skirmishers is what allows them to shoot when marching or reforming. "They can even shoot if they marched or reformed earlier in the turn." It's not "marched and reformed," so shooting when reforming (regardless of whether or not they marched) falls under this rule. SFs ignore that rule, so yeah, they can't shoot if they reform at all.
They could still reform as much as they want during a move, because that's part of the "Free Reform" sub-rule but then they can't fire.
Not too much of an issue, though because they can still wheel 6" which is almost 90 degrees for a frontage of 3. They just can't do a 180 and shoot.
And yeah, the rules for Forests make Skirmishers and lone infantry characters Stubborn. SFs Skirmish, so they definitely get that.
Edit: Another point is that since the SFs ignore "Light Troops" they not only lose the -1 To Hit when being shot, they also ignore the bits about having zero ranks, not claiming rank bonus, steadfast, or being able to disorder (disrupt) the enemy in the flank. Although, you'd need at least 6 SFs to get two ranks.
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