The state of Khaine magic

[Woolly.Mammoth]

NOTE: This is what you currently prefer and would expect to be able to play (not "in a perfect world" scenario).

Now that Khaine has been out a while, most have given it a go and by now have formed a pretty solid opinion on what they prefer. Personally I've jumped around between my opinions, but by now I have a pretty solid idea of what I prefer. Many have been flip-flopping like me, so its hard to truly gauge the popularity of the new magic rules.

I'm creating this poll across a few army boards in hope of getting a better idea the true state of Khaine magic and what most people prefer. Please vote and leave any feedback you may have.

 

[Alabaster427]

What does dispel=failure mean? I like the 4d6 dice, but I don't like spamming as many spells as you like. So I 8th edition rules with 4d6 instead of 2d6 and take away the "roll 1d6 to see how many dice you can use to cast"

 

[Mr. Cthulhu]

What does dispel=failure mean?

In Khaine magic, if you successfully cast a spell under power lvl 15 with a 3+ lvl wizard, you can recast said spell. There is a debate as to whether a spell that has been cast, but then dispelled, counts as successfully cast. So dispel = failure would mean that if your wizard cast a spell that could be cast multiple times, and then it was dispelled, it is counted as not being successfully cast, and therefore cannot be recast-ed this phase (hope that made sense!).

 

[najo]

No one in my area likes or is using end times magic and most of them gave it an honest go. These are guys that like storm of magic too.

 

[Alabaster427]

In Khaine magic, if you successfully cast a spell under power lvl 15 with a 3+ lvl wizard, you can recast said spell. There is a debate as to whether a spell that has been cast, but then dispelled, counts as successfully cast. So dispel = failure would mean that if your wizard cast a spell that could be cast multiple times, and then it was dispelled, it is counted as not being successfully cast, and therefore cannot be recast-ed this phase (hope that made sense!).

That does make sense, but I think (especially as undead) we should know that it counts as successfully cast, even if it's dispelled. Reference: Dark Acolyte and VC FAQ regarding Dark Acolyte.

However, I don't think the same wizard should be able to cast any spell more than once in a phase unless it's an augment spell and they shouldn't stack unless it's from another caster. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

What does dispel=failure mean? I like the 4d6 dice, but I don't like spamming as many spells as you like. So I 8th edition rules with 4d6 instead of 2d6 and take away the "roll 1d6 to see how many dice you can use to cast"

I would consider this an 8th-Khaine hybrid "house rules"

The "does a dispel count as a failure" debate still rages. The fact is that its simply not clear. While you may have a logical opinion on the matter, it is still only an opinion - its simply not clear enough for a consensus.

That does make sense, but I think (especially as undead) we should know that it counts as successfully cast, even if it's dispelled. Reference: Dark Acolyte and VC FAQ regarding Dark Acolyte.

However, I don't think the same wizard should be able to cast any spell more than once in a phase unless it's an augment spell and they shouldn't stack unless it's from another caster. But that's just my opinion.

If you're playing Khaine only that you cannot cast the same spell twice, that would be End Times + some key house rules

No one in my area likes or is using end times magic and most of them gave it an honest go. These are guys that like storm of magic too.

What is your vote then? 8th RAW, or do you often use some key house rules? Are you playing the new End Times Spells with 8th rules?

 

[El Syf]

I quite like khaine magic but would prefer if you didn't have to roll a dice to see how many dice you can roll to cast. Also I think having access to all spells in a lore is a bit much, but then I voted for 7th as we had necromancy spells which I liked as they were spells you would want/need to cast more than once.

 

[najo]

First, we play RAW with a smattering of RAI/spirit of the game. We avoid house rules unless absolutely necessary, which is basically never. Technically by banning or requiring both players to agree on khaine magic in our events, we are house ruling, but that's really the extent.

Most of our circle plays advanced pro level. A lot of us stay on top of builds and purposely play out of the box. We have pro teams and clubs that travel around to events in the region to compete. We find house ruling harms preparing you for that.

8th magic isn't fixed by khaine magic. 8ths real issue is the miscast table doesn't really punish six dicing/intentional miscasting. Nuke spells are a slight problem too, but mainly being able to gaurentee a spell with the most likely result being a wounds and canceling the magic phase that isn't much of a deterrent. As I've stated before, fixing 8th Miscast's could be as simple as number of dice determines number of wounds the hit causes. But I digress.

Also, khaine magic is broken. It needs clean up and favors high elves, dark elves and lizardmen WAY more than other races. The d6 dice before each action breaks the interplay between players this is part of what makes the rules messy. It looks good on paper, it's a disaster in use. If any one house rule should be done to end times magic, it be take out the d6 and put in miscasting deals d3 wounds with 4-5 dice and d6 wounds with 6+.

Likewise, the rules are written poorly, but are clear RAW. Dispelling doesn't end recasting. Only failing the casting roll or having a casting value of 15+ does.

Khaine magic is bad for the game I'm sad to say. They missed a cool opportunity to work in storm of magic style magic in a more accessible way. If they took out d6, changed miscasts, then got rid of the lore master rule and let dispelling stop miscasting, they would be awesome to play. Maybe allow end times spells to be dispelled, or at least tone down the high and dark magic ones. Metal too.

 

[Sception]

I agree about most, but disagree about 'dispelling ends recast'. Most spells in the game shouldnt allow recast even if they have been cast before,nwhile a few factions are designed around being able to cast a few sig spells as many times as you have casters (in particular us and invocation), even if an earlier attempt was dispelled. so no, 'recast unless dispelled' doesnt fix it, every bit of it is still bad.

Every part of khaine magic apart from 4 dice, which should be restricted to big games, not any size game played with particular armies, is bad and broken. there is no baby to save in that filthy, filthy bath water, just throw it out and be done with it.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

First, we play RAW with a smattering of RAI/spirit of the game. We avoid house rules unless absolutely necessary, which is basically never. Technically by banning or requiring both players to agree on khaine magic in our events, we are house ruling, but that's really the extent.

Most of our circle plays advanced pro level. A lot of us stay on top of builds and purposely play out of the box. We have pro teams and clubs that travel around to events in the region to compete. We find house ruling harms preparing you for that.

8th magic isn't fixed by khaine magic. 8ths real issue is the miscast table doesn't really punish six dicing/intentional miscasting. Nuke spells are a slight problem too, but mainly being able to gaurentee a spell with the most likely result being a wounds and canceling the magic phase that isn't much of a deterrent. As I've stated before, fixing 8th Miscast's could be as simple as number of dice determines number of wounds the hit causes. But I digress.

Also, khaine magic is broken. It needs clean up and favors high elves, dark elves and lizardmen WAY more than other races. The d6 dice before each action breaks the interplay between players this is part of what makes the rules messy. It looks good on paper, it's a disaster in use. If any one house rule should be done to end times magic, it be take out the d6 and put in miscasting deals d3 wounds with 4-5 dice and d6 wounds with 6+.

Likewise, the rules are written poorly, but are clear RAW. Dispelling doesn't end recasting. Only failing the casting roll or having a casting value of 15+ does.

Khaine magic is bad for the game I'm sad to say. They missed a cool opportunity to work in storm of magic style magic in a more accessible way. If they took out d6, changed miscasts, then got rid of the lore master rule and let dispelling stop miscasting, they would be awesome to play. Maybe allow end times spells to be dispelled, or at least tone down the high and dark magic ones. Metal too.

I agree completely. I wouldn't mind Khaine magic if it were properly written. If it were properly written and tested before publish, there a lot of changes they would make.

Personally I think that instead of a random table, you should be penalized based on the die you use. Miscasting on 2 dice is silly and should be painless, where as 6 dicing should guarantee a dimensional cascade. That would be a much better deterrent than the D6 dice idea. I don't hate that part, but I dont like it either.

I appreciate Khaine because it really showed me the how good 8th really is. Basically you have an opportunity to get off one really key spell, and you have to try and outwit your opponent - trick him into blocking the spell that you actually dont need, or 6 dice the spell you do need in desperation. In khaine its all about what random D6 comes up. Basically all the wizards in the world became super powerful and sloppy as hell.

I love not rolling for spells though - thats very nice. I can envision an 8th edition type of phase where you pick form a larger variety of lores, each with only 4-5 spells each. That would be a much better way to do magic.

If Khane is some kind of play testing for 9th, I hope they actually are reading these boards and seeing that its being rejected by about 70% and adjusted by about 29.9% of all players.

I agree about most, but disagree about 'dispelling ends recast'. Most spells in the game shouldnt allow recast even if they have been cast before,nwhile a few factions are designed around being able to cast a few sig spells as many times as you have casters (in particular us and invocation), even if an earlier attempt was dispelled. so no, 'recast unless dispelled' doesnt fix it, every bit of it is still bad.

Every part of khaine magic apart from 4 dice, which should be restricted to big games, not any size game played with particular armies, is bad and broken. there is no baby to save in that filthy, filthy bath water, just throw it out and be done with it.

I also agree however as I said, I love not rolling for spells. The rest you can throw out.

My next game im trying Khaine + no recasting. That seem to be the most popular fix. But I'm doing it at a behest of an opponent who "hates 8th" - I still prefer to stick with 8th rather than acknowledge the entirety of the nonsensical Khaine rules.

 

[Demian]

Don't forget the "broken concentration" no longer being used...

that's sweet, I think. Having less Dispel Dice than the acting player is disadvantage enough for your wizard to further suffer when you try to use his higher wizard level to your advantage and end up rolling snake eyes... =S

 

[najo]

I love not rolling for spells though - thats very nice. I can envision an 8th edition type of phase where you pick form a larger variety of lores, each with only 4-5 spells each. That would be a much better way to do magic.

I understand this sentiment. From my experience when you remove spell generation and allow players to choose, magic phases become very predictable. Certain spells are always taken and cast.

With the current system, a player has to use creativity to get the most out of the spells they get. The influence they have being choosing the lores, how many wizards they bring, what levels they are, the order they roll each wizard in, when doubles are rolled and finally what is swapped out for signature spells. At each of these steps, both before and after writing an army, you invest in magic to gain control over it. With a level 4 and 2 of the same lore, you can get all the spells you want but maybe not where you want them. This system ends up with opportunities and unexpected events when you don't get that one spell or the little wizard gets the big, high casting one.

There is so much to this, I could go on and write an article with Sunny about it but magic currently has a lot of layers, strategies and surprises to it that is lost with khaine magic.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

I understand this sentiment. From my experience when you remove spell generation and allow players to choose, magic phases become very predictable. Certain spells are always taken and cast.

With the current system, a player has to use creativity to get the most out of the spells they get. The influence they have being choosing the lores, how many wizards they bring, what levels they are, the order they roll each wizard in, when doubles are rolled and finally what is swapped out for signature spells. At each of these steps, both before and after writing an army, you invest in magic to gain control over it. With a level 4 and 2 of the same lore, you can get all the spells you want but maybe not where you want them. This system ends up with opportunities and unexpected events when you don't get that one spell or the little wizard gets the big, high casting one.

There is so much to this, I could go on and write an article with Sunny about it but magic currently has a lot of layers, strategies and surprises to it that is lost with Khaine magic.

I understand what you're saying and can appreciate the layers, but I just dont truly enjoy any of that. All of these layers are happening before a battle and delay the action. What it can equate to is not rolling for VDM on your only vamp wiz and having your game ruined. Sure like you can invest in duplicate magic to make sure that 7% chance of crap doesn't happen to you, but I dont enjoy that - I'd rather take a different lore if I'm investing in magic and have variety.

Regarding fluff - As a general, I think I'd want to hire a wizard who can do something specific for me. To show up to the battle and have that wizard suddenly forget how to do that thing I needed him to do is silly.

In reality, it doesn't really add up to having random spells and making the best of what you get. Not many people take a level 1-2 unless its with a lore with a signature they need. Pretty much every VC game I've had has been with similar magic.

My idea of having a lore with 4 spells, but a lot more lores would actually create more diversity of games, as you would have more variety overall. Predictability is not really a factor, you know what to expect from vampire mages, a light council, etc. You see what your opponent rolls so if a Branchwraith rolls for Flesh to Stone, you know that hes going to try to improve toughness at some point.

I just much prefer not delaying the game to see if fate is going to screw me for not bringing two of the same mages. But thats just my opinion.

 

[owain_b]

I completely agree with najo, on everything he said. It was almost as if I was speaking
Our gaming group came back from a big break from playing 4th ed straight into 8th and one of the things we all instantly preferred was the 8th magic. I think it works really well the way it is (agree the miscast table could do with some tweaking) but generally I wouldn't change it. I like the unpredictableness of it and not knowing what you'll end up with just adds to the game I think.
And I think not knowing some of the spells is easily explained, just like d&d the wizard can only cast a spell once per day so at the point of the battle the spells generated are the only ones the wizard has left. I like it that way, I don't like being able to recast the same spell at all.

 

[najo]

The spells can also show that between the winds of magic/ influence of chaos and wizards being unique and eccentric characters, it just adds in another element to the game and if you want magic to be less random, you have to commit points into it. Just like any aspect of an army.

Low level wizards basic have one or two spells, they can rely in the signature and they are at the whims of the power dice since their bonus is low. High level wizards can use less dice, have more reliable casting results and have more if the lore, with more chances to choose the spells. This makes sense to me.

 

[LordTobiothan]

The spells can also show that between the winds of magic/ influence of chaos and wizards being unique and eccentric characters, it just adds in another element to the game and if you want magic to be less random, you have to commit points into it. Just like any aspect of an army.

Low level wizards basic have one or two spells, they can rely in the signature and they are at the whims of the power dice since their bonus is low. High level wizards can use less dice, have more reliable casting results and have more if the lore, with more chances to choose the spells. This makes sense to me.

I'm of the opinion that there should have been at the very least a purchase able item that let you choose 1 of your spells.

Fact is some lists rely on a particular spell in general going off at least once in a game to be successful. And paying a bunch of points to increase my chances of not losing turn 0 is just painful, especially if I don't get the spell.

It's the reason I can't seem to make a list without hero Mannfred. Loremaster too good.

 

[owain_b]

I can see where you are coming from but I just think them's the apples if you rely heavily on one spell you either have to invest in manfred or kemmler or roll the dice! Half the game is chance, and I like that. sometimes a better army will lose because of bad dice rolls doesnt matter what magic you have or dont have.

 

[Sception]

Personally, I think its not just the miscast table that needs tweakng to deal with 6 dicing in thecore 8e magic rules. You can make 6 die miscasts always instant death, no questions asked for the casting mage, and irresistable fishing will still be a thing. Some of the super spells really are too strong, but mostly the whole irresistable force mechanic is borked. Much like khaine magic, it ruines the interplay between players, and as long as powerful spells can swing games (which is something we want out of a cool fantasy battle magic phase) it will otherwise always be worth fishing for irresistibles, no matter how bad you make miscasts.

 

[najo]

One level 4 is very likely to get one double (so you choose) and can dump the spell they don't want for the signature.

But what I do is I build my army and then look at each spell and figure out the priority order spells I want from that lore. I also figure out what each spell could be used for and what the worst possible hand would be. Then I figure out what I would do with those hands. Because movement is so important, we do have Book of Arkhan (which if you play aggro style is auto-include). That is the most important spell next to Raise Dead, but since we have dire wolves, fell bats and spirit hosts for redirecting we don't NEED Raise Dead in the same way. This leaves Hellish Vigor, Curse of Years, Gaze of Nagash and Wind of Death.

So, you take a single Vampire Lore level 4 wizard. Let's say he doesn't get Raise Dead or Van Hel's. Well, we have Book of Arkhan and wolves, right? So he gets HV, CoY, GoN and WoD. Dump whichever one you want for IoN and your good to go. Let's say you get Van Hel's and Raise Dead. Well you now have a huge advantage. And let's say you don't get the two spells you really want from the other four, like CoY and GoN and instead get WoD and HV. Again, dump the weakest for you. Need anti armor? Take Hewraiths, Archai or keep Wind of Death. Got lots of killing blow, keep HV.

See how this works? You build your army around your playstyle, the worst and best hands you can get and then hedge the bets with Book of Arkhan and some dire wolves.

 

[najo]

I can see where you are coming from but I just think them's the apples if you rely heavily on one spell you either have to invest in manfred or kemmler or roll the dice! Half the game is chance, and I like that. sometimes a better army will lose because of bad dice rolls doesnt matter what magic you have or dont have.

Speaking as a veteran who has played Warhammer for 25 years. Warhammer only becomes about bad dice rolls when you do not enact proper tactics or have a solid strategy to follow. The reason is the movement of the game is rarely random and movement you can control. Deployment you control. Unit facing you control. Charge distance you can control (get within auto succeed distance).

These parts of the game are where the game is math and chess (but with unlimited moves and the players having different pieces). This is also why I play undead and not orcs & goblins. Orcs and goblins has to much randomness in it. Its an army for players who want to subject themselves to chance.

Yes, a bad dice roll can make your 650 Mannfred go poof from a miscast and disappear in a dimensional cascade. Yup, still hurts....

But for the most part, winning the game is about avoiding having to make dice rolls until you got the odds as much in your favor as you can (i.e. flank or rear charges for example). Its also about forcing as many leadership checks, long distant charges, rout moves and other bad random events as possible on your opponent so he can't maintain his battle lines and follow a plan.

Trust me. Veteran players intuitively and consciously know these things. Warhammer is not a random game. Its a game of controlled odds and out playing your opponent. We've been doing a league for the last 6 weeks, I have won every game except one and I tabled two of my opponents, losing only a unit of dire wolves both times. Before that we had a 10 week campaign and I won my first 7 games in a row. Some were slaughters and some were very, very close. I know some damn good players. Great guys I've been playing against for 20+ years some of them and I've been tabled by these guys before too.

If you start to have bad moments and it seems to be dice at first, stop and ask yourself these questions: What actions did I take that lead up to those dice that went bad? Did I put myself in a poor situation that the dice were going to be against me? What could I have done to prevent that situation?

And, if you are losing, keep playing. Never quit. Just take a step back, take a deep breath, think for a moment. At that moment, say to yourself... "How do I still win this? and if I can't win it, how do I deal the most damage and make it as hard on him as possible?"

That question, those moments, staying in there and doing your best... That is when you became a better player, even by a couple baby steps. And years of doing that, that is what leads to being able to pull off winning streaks and make your loses just as damaging to the other guy. That is how a real general throws down and plays Warhammer!

 

[owain_b]

I do agree with what you are saying, it is mostly a game of tactics, and 90% of the time the better general will win. But there are times when things happen that are not in your control, and yes a good general can turn things around. But I'm talking about things like rolling 6 dice and them all coming up 1's (that actually happened to me about a week ago) and I played a game with Nagash a few month ago and he died in my opponents turn 1 before I even had a go, just from bad dice rolls. And some things like that can make even the best general lose a game. I admit this doesnt happen very often and 9 time out of 10 it is all down to the way the general plays the game, I didnt mean that I thought the game was very random, far from it, but bad luck can play a part occasionally. But to be honest I quite like it when it does, makes you have to re-think lots of things and work harder to pull of the win, sometimes these make for some great games when you manage to pull it back from the brink of distruction

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

Speaking as a veteran who has played Warhammer for 25 years. Warhammer only becomes about bad dice rolls when you do not enact proper tactics or have a solid strategy to follow. The reason is the movement of the game is rarely random and movement you can control. Deployment you control. Unit facing you control. Charge distance you can control (get within auto succeed distance).

These parts of the game are where the game is math and chess (but with unlimited moves and the players having different pieces). This is also why I play undead and not orcs & goblins. Orcs and goblins has to much randomness in it. Its an army for players who want to subject themselves to chance.

Yes, a bad dice roll can make your 650 Mannfred go poof from a miscast and disappear in a dimensional cascade. Yup, still hurts....

But for the most part, winning the game is about avoiding having to make dice rolls until you got the odds as much in your favor as you can (i.e. flank or rear charges for example). Its also about forcing as many leadership checks, long distant charges, rout moves and other bad random events as possible on your opponent so he can't maintain his battle lines and follow a plan.

Trust me. Veteran players intuitively and consciously know these things. Warhammer is not a random game. Its a game of controlled odds and out playing your opponent. We've been doing a league for the last 6 weeks, I have won every game except one and I tabled two of my opponents, losing only a unit of dire wolves both times. Before that we had a 10 week campaign and I won my first 7 games in a row. Some were slaughters and some were very, very close. I know some damn good players. Great guys I've been playing against for 20+ years some of them and I've been tabled by these guys before too.

If you start to have bad moments and it seems to be dice at first, stop and ask yourself these questions: What actions did I take that lead up to those dice that went bad? Did I put myself in a poor situation that the dice were going to be against me? What could I have done to prevent that situation?

And, if you are losing, keep playing. Never quit. Just take a step back, take a deep breath, think for a moment. At that moment, say to yourself... "How do I still win this? and if I can't win it, how do I deal the most damage and make it as hard on him as possible?"

That question, those moments, staying in there and doing your best... That is when you became a better player, even by a couple baby steps. And years of doing that, that is what leads to being able to pull off winning streaks and make your loses just as damaging to the other guy. That is how a real general throws down and plays Warhammer!

I have gotten to the point where I learn from every game. I have learned a lot about the game from sources such as this forum and especially from helpful posters like yourself. There was one game with wood elves versus Daemons that I have no idea about and I wish to forget, but other than that I take a lot away from every game.

For example my last game - Skaven vs Nurgle. Glottkin, core Trolls, Festus warriors and Regen spells all around. I thought Scorch would be enough to deal with regen but it was not.

I learned a hard lesson about the storm banner. It should only be used in the event that your opponents shooting is a considerable factor over your own. It raged through two of my own turns and didn't even prevent a single shot from his hellcannon. Of course, I'll still take it every game, as it can easily be the difference between a loss and a win against many lists. Every game I have ignored the hellcannon was a great victory, and every one that I made it a priority target was a loss - another important lesson.

I also tried out a Verminlord Deceiver. I was amazed by the versatility of an extremely mobile T6 wizard. Unfortunately the Deceiver is completely unreliable in close combat. This really opened my eyes to the optimal ways to use a verminlord, and which might be better to take than others. I'm excited to continue testing and learning how to make the most of them.

While often a major point of contention, I finally started to appreciate "initiative or die" spells/effects. While I would feel dishonored to use them as a general tactic, there's no shame in using them to save your life.

A common lesson - I once again realized the necessity of being prepared. While an all regen list is a little cheesy, a simple ring of ruby ruin or warpfire thrower could have easily turned the game from a loss to at least a tie.

In regards to the points you make about magic, I understand and appreciate the points you are making, but I just don't personally enjoy any of that. Of course I always have at least two vamp wizards and make an educated choice as to which spells my level 4 will take based on the situation. I also appreciate the small level of face-palm errors that can occur, and how you can build a list to minimize their effect from ruining your game. But building lists around this can be very frustrating for me. For example, my WE features a mobile fast cav lvl4 caster. I would like to take a second wizard, but would prefer a different lore to expand the versatility of the magic that is available to me. This means I have to choose between the versatility of a second lore, or double up on the same lore just to circumvent the 9.26% my Weaver will miss out on the key spell I need. While I can appreciate the chance of a failed charge or a bomb being a dud, creating a chance of failure regarding the wisdom of my wizard is not fun, tactical or fluffy IMO.

Regardless, I was dealing with it without (much) complaint the best I could until Khaine showed me a better way. Unfortunately this "better way" ended up creating more problems than it solved. Aside from rolling for spells, Khaine has made me appreciate 8th magic a lot more.

The main issue with warhammer is their lack of support. What you have done is master the unsupported rules, flawed as they are, to make the most of them. I can appreciate that which that is why I prefer 8th over undefined Khaine. If GW properly supported their product there would have been a rules errata weeks ago answering confusion in he rules so that there can be no argument other than "I dont like it". Great support would have even tweaked the rules so that they are more appealing overall and most would not be ignoring them. GW business model is to keep a steady flow of the most gorgeous miniatures in the world and let everything else work itself out.

You might argue for balance or for rules you personally object to, but you cannot argue for properly supporting your product.

 

[LordTobiothan]

There is an entire phase of this game that you cannot rely on when building your army for counters.

As najo said if you need to crush armor you can take something like hexwraiths, that is a conscious movement/combat phase choice. While ours is limited you can take things to handle stuff in the shooting phase.

And then there's magic. Where unless you need the signature spell you think, well magic is generally good enough that I probably shouldn't go without a level 4 whatever I roll will still have good effect. But it has nearly zero relevance to your list building.

Your just damn near required to save points for a mega wizard not because you need some spell, but because magic is effective in general. With a moderate amount more control it can become a tool for your list and not a required awesome effect bomb.

 

[najo]

Every part of warhammer that connects to dice is a numbers game. You take a single war machine, and shooting will be random. Bring two, and you gain a bell curve of reliability. Bring three and you just increased the reliability of your war machines exponentially.

Magic is the same way with spell selection. The more levels and wizards of the same lore you bring, the more reliable that Lore's spell selection gets. The higher level wizard you have the easier those spells cast through. The more wizards you have, the more channeling attempts and the more stability you gain in winds of magic generation.

Logically, if I invest more in my spell casters and focus it, it will be more reliable. That's what is occurring.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Every part of warhammer that connects to dice is a numbers game. You take a single war machine, and shooting will be random. Bring two, and you gain a bell curve of reliability. Bring three and you just increased the reliability of your war machines exponentially.

Magic is the same way with spell selection. The more levels and wizards of the same lore you bring, the more reliable that Lore's spell selection gets. The higher level wizard you have the easier those spells cast through. The more wizards you have, the more channeling attempts and the more stability you gain in winds of magic generation.

Logically, if I invest more in my spell casters and focus it, it will be more reliable. That's what is occurring.

There's a pretty major difference between 2 cannons and 2 caster's though. I fire one and it does only great but I bring 2 and one of them is more likely to do fantastic.

I bring 2 caster's and if my level 4 doesn't get the spell I want then I simply didn't get the spell. My level 2 having it is close to worthless. A level 2 caster is just used as a back up dispeller and if you have extra dice, not for casting anything of worth.