RIP WHFB 2015

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The way I see it is that this is a saga like that of Elric of Melnibone if you've read those books. The stories are very similar, and in the end of the Elric saga the world is cleansed of all life and reshaped by the gods of Law after a titanic war between Law and Chaos. Elric dies, and the story ends. This is how the End Times should end in my opinion because it gives final closure and is much more epic, like Ragnarok in the Warhammer world where everyone offs each other at the end of time.
 
That is pretty cool; as a story it'd work very well, and I suppose something similar to this was alluded to in GW's earlier fiction for both Warhammer and 40K. My concern is that it isn't just a story; it also needs to be a background for other people's fantasies. Personally I need to feel like I've got a dog in the fight as far as the fluff goes, otherwise I'd probably stick to historical wargaming, or perhaps reenacting battles from better fictional sources like Lord Of The Rings or Star Wars. Not that it alters the gameplay one bit, but I have to admit since Walach got killed off I've started using the Red Duke more often...
 
Yeah I see where you're coming from, but at the end of the day it's their story so in the end your characters and my characters don't really matter because they're all part of Games Workshop's story, and if they were to end it all then we'd just have to deal with it. The only way you're going to find true satisfaction regarding your own fantasies and whatnot is if you create something yourself, like writing a book or something. But, I do agree with you that it makes the game perhaps a little bit more engrossing when it feels like a living world that your character is a part of. I just think that it could be the same but in a retrospective manner, so instead of "it can" it would be "it could".
 
That's true enough... I do intend to write a history for Walach, handy that GW have provided the ending now as well, and again as a story I think it will push all the right buttons. I guess so long as we can all continue to enjoy the hobby it's all good?
 
Yeah I see where you're coming from, but at the end of the day it's their story so in the end your characters and my characters don't really matter because they're all part of Games Workshop's story, and if they were to end it all then we'd just have to deal with it. [snip]

We all saw how well that turned out for White wolf though...
 
We all saw how well that turned out for White wolf though...
White Wolf completely ditched everything they created and started new with barely any connection to the original material. Warhammer is likely building from and off of the setting, so we may be pleasantly surprised of the results. I know we are all anxious and worried, but GW may pull off something amazing too.
 
Vampire the Masquerade. Pen and paper rpg. Very 1990s grimdark gothy type game.

"Alas, my sire. Blood kiss. Kindred embrace the night trench coats. KMFDM." That kinda stuff.
 
Think "Underworld" the role-playing game. But White Wolf was doing Vampire the Masquerade RPG looooong before the Underworld movie was released.
 
Like many pen & paper rpg companies, their main lines eventually hit market saturation and they had trouble selling stuff. So they tried for a big reboot very similar to warhammer end times, a narrative leading up to an apocalypse that ended everything, followed by a high production value reimagining of all their core products.

And that re-imagining was great. The new World of Darkness (the core system rules, playable as a game of unpowered humans who have become aware of a hidden world of hostile, unknowable supernatural forces, sort of 'call of cthulhu'esque) was much better and much cleaner, and actually quite enjoyable as a game in its own right. Of their 'big three' games - Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage; all dark modern-setting games where you play as some of those supernatural forces - Werewolf and Mage at least were also greatly improved over their prior incarnations, taking on darker, more interesting themes.

And then there were a bunch of spin off games, games centered around playing other sorts of supernatural things, typically each getting a core book and a small handful of supplements total, rather than intended as ongoing lines, and these were the real gems of the new World of Darkness. Changeling: the Lost in particular is one of the most compelling rpgs I've ever played, though sadly it's a bit hard to run or write campaigns for. But still, it's amazing, and completely unrecognizeable from the pre-boot old world of darkness's super pretentious and really just sorta dumb Changeling: the Dreaming.

Only Vampire: the Requiem compared poorly to it's previous incarnation, but that's a major problem because Vampire: the Masquarade was White Wolf's most successful product line before the reboot. The players invested in Vampire more or less rebelled, and that was a huge chunk of their existing fanbase. There was just no way for completely new players to make up the difference, especially with the new line trying to bill itself as 'premium' products with high production values on the books.

And they really were premium products, I love my beautiful, green, shiney-covered C:tL core book. But many of those who did appreciate the new games didn't buy those premium products, they just bought the cheap digital versions from online (those who didn't pirate them altogether, but the cost of cracking down on free loaders is generally greater than the costs they impose if you just leave them be).

And that's sort of the situation I fear for Newhammer. GW has clearly been pushing their miniatures as 'premium products', and honestly they really are. You may or may not like GW's aesthetic style these days, but nobody puts out a nicer miniature product in terms of size, ambition, level of detail, or quality of material (if we're talking about plastic, the finecast is of course garbage, but everyone knows that and GW isn't even trying to push it anymore). But I worry about GW finding a large enough audience to justify that premium product if they're starting off by alienating their entire existing player base.
 
And speaking of Vampire: The Masquerade, they recently-ish released a 20th aniversary revised version of it!

It's the core mechanics plus a revised (truly revised) version of many concepts of the original pre-reboot series (the narrative includes smartphones and stuff happening in the 2000+ era, not the 90's). If you acquire it, it's awesome!

And in relation of what GW is doing with their product, I've come to realize all the factors that contribute to make a successful game, not just mechanics or playstyle, but marketing, distribution and availability... all costly and important. So, I expect this tabletop game will live up to our expectations, as I've said before. There is no reason for them to dissapoint, specially with all the latest interest they must have surely seen, and the one they've put with almost monthly releases of new-ish stuff.

and March is the month of Archaon, I believe! so let us read the final chapter of this story, long overdue!
 
Yeah I see where you're coming from, but at the end of the day it's their story so in the end your characters and my characters don't really matter because they're all part of Games Workshop's story, and if they were to end it all then we'd just have to deal with it. The only way you're going to find true satisfaction regarding your own fantasies and whatnot is if you create something yourself, like writing a book or something.

A valid argument, absolutely. However, on some levels I have to disagree about people's own characters etc. effectively being owned by Games Workshop. That's kinda the thing - they're not. Both in the sense of legal Intellectual Property (even tough this can be disputed in some cases) and, as I see it, the somewhat esoteric right an artist/creator/writer/whatevs' has to her/his own work. For example, fan-fiction is by many legal scholars considered to be the intellectual property of it's direct creator - not the creator of whatever background it was based on - given that it is a matter of an "individual adaptation".

Ergo, your 12-pages long background-fluff about your Vampire Lord Javier von Necksucker-Blütgobbler is your intellectual property. A story about Mannfred von Carstein, as described in the "official" fluff, is not, however. ;)

However, I've got a rant of my own going on, so strap in xD :

The thing I don't like about these tectonic changes to the setting is that, whenever a series/faction/setting is discontinued, it inadvertently takes away the thing that is the most important thing to people love to immerse themselves in creating their personal characters, background and whatnot: Their audience - the other members of the fanbase.

You've all probably met them. The Grade A+ Writefags who spends hours coming up with and writing down their army's or character's place in the setting, their motives and personality, their history and background etc. When her/his army/faction is discontinued, the models no longer produced and the fluff effectively rendered null, the patience other players might have had for his little escapades into quasi-creativity dissipates.

Lets make use a silly example: Say that I luuurve Twilight. I luuuurve it so much that I want to write an extensive piece of fanfiction about it. Just as I'm about to post my creation on some obscure fansite, another book by Myers drop. As it turns out, my piece of fanfiction is completely and utterly incompatible with her latest work. Naturally, the other diehard Twilight-fans on the website aren't really as interested in what I have written as a result. Had I posted the story one month prior, would the response and interest of the other fanboy/-girls been different? I'd say so, yes.

Is Myers in the wrong? Obviously not, I think you'll all agree. However, it's still a shame for that ambitious fanboy/-girl who spent all those hours writing that fanfiction.

The same thing goes for the Warhammer-enthusiast. In the eyes of many others in the fanbase, his work is not relevant anymore. Whatever little, sympathetic interest they might have had would heavily diminish - or at least that's my prediction. Consequently, a whole lot of effort and soul goes down the drain.

As Undying Scourge very rightly pointed out, the Warhammer-world as such is Games Workshop's intellectual property and they have the right to develop it, better it or change it however they please. I'm not saying that Games Workshop needs to or indeed have any sort of obligation whatsoever to take this into consideration when deciding how to develop the setting. However, what I am saying is that I don't like the implications of such massive changes to the backstory and setting, and I would have greatly appreciated if Game Workshop would have been more conservative when making these (suspected) changes - even if I can't level any criticism at the company for going the way they seem to go.

To sum things up: I don't like these proposed changes to WHFB because in invalidates and renders null a lot of work and soul that hobbyists have poured into their hobby - painting, writing or otherwise. And while I am in no position to criticize the suggested changes, the setting still being Games Workshop's intellectual property, I would have appreciated a more conservative approach, as to not distance the hobby to much from what many hobbyist's have grown attached to and based a lot of work around.

________________________________________

*Phew* Long rant, that! I have no idea if I make much sense. :cautious:

Anyone in agreement? :)

Cheers!

/Werner
 
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I think you're very right. And I think that's the main cause of my concern, because I am one of those dorks who comes up with names and histories for my characters, and I like the way those characters interact with the setting at large. The proposed bubblehammer might be very well written, but it also means that I'll have to re-learn everything from the ground up, and re-think how my characters are going to interact with this new world. And I know that's dorky, and no one is ever going to read my background but that doesn't matter. It's just a personal thing for me, it motivates me to complete my units and armies, and I'm really worried that if GW zigs when they should have zagged, they'll kill that motivation for me.

But at the end of the day, there's plenty of other rule sets out there to shoe-horn my forces into, and it's not like the fun police are going to come around and confiscate all my 8th edition books.
 
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Writing background for our characters aside, at the end of the day, it's the miniature collection that's important. That's where most of the money and work goes.

And the entire point of a miniatures game is to assemble a collection of nicely painted (perhaps converted) models to play games with.

It really doesn't matter what GW does to the story. I can adapt my story to match, or keep it locked in the "present." Battles can always be representations of "historical" events in the Warhammer World. But if swaths of models and armies are removed from play, that's where the problem lies.

The dynamic always shifts between editions– points values, skirmishing/ ranked up, special rule tweaks, stat adjustments, available magic weapons. Maybe a character type or model gets rotated out, but those are few and far between, and things eventually find their way back in.

The majority of available troop or unit types and how they form up as an army stays the same.

When that changes, that's when we've got problems.
 
No, when that changes GW has problem. All it takes for ME to have a problem, is to kill my motivation to play. If a setting doesn't have some 'life' for me, then I have zero interest in playing games in it. For instance, Wargods of Aegyptus, no matter how good the game and the models, will never interest me. Wargods of Olympus, however, is very interesting to me despite being essentially the same game.

If GW changes the setting, and I don't like it the same way I like the current one, it's a fairly safe bet that WHFB will be dead to me and I'll either continue to play 8th edition or port my armies over to Hail Caesar.
 
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We've only got a couple months, I think, to find out if we're playing 9th Edition, or sticking with 8th Edition.

I can't imagine not playing/ painting Warhammer anymore just because GW ruins the setting. Even if they ruin the game (which, if you follow the worst-case rumors, it sounds like they're planning to) we can still continue at 8th Edition indefinitely.

I guess at some point the collections won't be able to expand if they start cutting the model range. Most veterans probably have at least one of everything for their army. Secondary market and other miniature lines could fill in any gaps.

But having a set, rules set without having to worry about edition changes or new army books isn't necessarily a bad thing. It would allow everyone to catch up on painting and just play some Warhammer.
 
I understand the fears some players have. But these discussions continue to go round and round. The same doom and gloom comes up and there is no evidence from GW that they are going to ruin fantasy. In fact, GWs track record so far is pretty solid on producing good fluff and quality products, with each edition of Warhammer and Warhammer 40k overall being better than its predecessor. Hence why everyone is so anxious about these changes.

I also know from my position of moderator that we have members who are turned away by the negativity that arises in these debates. They want to find community and enjoy the hobby with you, not drone on and on about GW ruining the game and how everyone is going to quit playing.

I also understand you want to voice your concerns and share your feelings with your community. That is important too. Each of your feelings are important. What gets missed though is you can't see the people who aren't posting who are turned off or turned away by the negativity and drama around the 9th edition debates. I'm not saying stop talking about what 9th may or may not be, but I would ask be mindful how your comments may come off to those who are not comfortable spending their time debating or expressing contrary views.

We all are here because we love Warhammer, we love Vampire Counts and we share a devotion to all things derived from Nagash. Nagash himself is in a good position in the End Times. He started it. He brought about his vision to dominate and bring about the end of the world. End Times is occurring because Teclis in his arrogance meddled and Nagash was resurrected. The elves have paid a massive price for that hubris. Chaos is descending on the Old World and ravaging everything in their path. Man's kingdoms are falling! This is the apocalypse Warhammer has always promised us and our Great Lord of the Undead is standing at the top as a force to be reckoned with in a world that the dead outnumber the living!

We as Warhammer players are getting to see what has been set in motion from the beginning. This is the End Times done the right way and faithful to the fluff. What more could we honestly ask for?

All I know is when the dust settles, there will be remnants of the old world and a new world rising from its ashes with new threats and challenges for the kingdoms of men, dwarves and elves. Our lord of the dead, Nagash, is likely to be a dominate force within that world. Our armies led by Vampires, Necromancers, Wights, Tomb Kings and Liche Priests with their hosts of zombies, skeletons, wights, spirits, constructs and a number of new horrific undead creatures will stand poised to wage war and claim the lands of the living. That army is going to be less generic and more rich in the Warhammer lore we love.

Give Nagash a chance to stake his claim and prove what the armies of the undead will be like in this new world he has a Hand (of Nagash) in creating. There is a good chance its going to be awesome!

And in the meantime, keep the feelings of members who aren't participating in these debates in mind. Find it in yourself to remember there are fellow fans who you can't see their reactions and are turned away by the pessimism of late. Please find something to be excited about with End Times/ 9th edition and give GW a chance to prove your worse fears wrong. Once 9th surfaces, if the worse is true, then that is another matter. But in the meantime, let's enjoy the ride together.
 
Writing background for our characters aside, at the end of the day, it's the miniature collection that's important. That's where most of the money and work goes.

And the entire point of a miniatures game is to assemble a collection of nicely painted (perhaps converted) models to play games with.

[...].

The majority of available troop or unit types and how they form up as an army stays the same.

When that changes, that's when we've got problems.

One could argue that the "point" of Warhammer is the gaming and collecting, but I don't think you can or should try and decide which aspect playing with plastic figurines is more or less "in the spirit" of the game than another.

I think Blutsauger makes a good point (and I'd love a link to some of that fluff you got goin' on, by the by ;) ). I know that it's a platitude, but the game is what each customer makes it. Games Workshop doesn't sell us a PC Game where we are more or less forced down a certain playstyle and/or way of executing the hobby. They sell us plastic figurines and paint. They also sell us books with suggested rules to use for our little toy soldiers. They also sell books (albeit often included in the Army Book) touching upon the fictional world where these battles are to be played out. No matter which of those aspects of Games Workshop's Merchandise you or me find the most interesting, as soon as we buy into any of it we become customers and parts of the fanbase. TLDR - the game is what the gamers make it out to be, and this particular gamer is far from pleased with the way things seem to be progressing in the story department. That opinion can hardly be any more or less important than those concerning rules etc., no?

______________________________________________


I think these talks raise an interesting question. :) Lets just stipulate that nobody likes the new fluff - even if you aren't interested in that aspect of WHFB, should you still let that influence your continued business with GW?

An example - when the latest Chaos Codex dropped in 40,000, some of my pals were annoyed at the obvious nerf of the Defiler, while the Forgefiend turned out as the new obvious centre-piece of the CSM-lineup. This was seen by many as a poorly hidden ploy to make people buy "new" models to replace the suddenly useless Defiler. Now - I play Death Korps of Krieg. I don't really directly care about the Chaos Codex - however, I do care about the company's business practices. Should I therefore let that (momentarily) influence my buying GW-merchandise in general, as a way of saying that "I don't approve of that kind of business-practice"?

If you happen to like the new way the setting is headed - great! However, even tough you don't particularly care about it, since you are a hardcore astroturf-general or pure paint-head - should you still let poor quality on the company's part in general dissuade you from supporting their business or business practice, or at least make your view known to the company? :cautious:

________________________________________________

I like that these forums creates an involved and aware consumer-base! :) If only 40,000 had these kinds of real discussions, maybe it wouldn't have devolved into the mess I see it as now! xD

Any thoughts?

Cheers!

/Werner
 
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I understand the fears some players have. But these discussions continue to go round and round. The same doom and gloom comes up and there is no evidence from GW that they are going to ruin fantasy. In fact, GWs track record so far is pretty solid on producing good fluff and quality products, with each edition of Warhammer and Warhammer 40k overall being better than its predecessor. Hence why everyone is so anxious about these changes.

I also know from my position of moderator that we have members who are turned away by the negativity that arises in these debates. They want to find community and enjoy the hobby with you, not drone on and on about GW ruining the game and how everyone is going to quit playing.

That is a very good point. None of us would have poured as much money and time into the hobby if Games Workshop didn't deliver good products on a regular basis! xD

However, while it is all-in-all a company that fulfills it's end of the bargain - I feel that criticism, perhaps even criticism made ad hominem, is by it's nature consumer-friendly and can only help the customers (which is what we are, after all). I don't know if it's true, now that I think about it - but I was under the impression that Games Workshop have their feelers out in the community and on forums such as this in order to gauge the market and sumsuch.

I'm not arguing with you (I wouldn't dare! xD ), and you make very good points - keeping a good tone is important. But, I do feel deeply about consumer-issues - and considering how much money Games Workshop is expecting me to shell out for a 16-pack of 28mm Skeletons with funnily-sized hands, I feel that it is justifies scrutinizing everything very critically. :twisted:

God, I gotta stop staying up this late! :|

/Werner
 
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I'm easy going and fair, feel free to speak your mind with me. I'm fully supportive of free speech too and agree open discourse is important. It's also important as a community that our members who are unintentionally creating some distress for the other members be made aware of the problem. Really how constructive and community building is speculating the absolute worse case scenario for 9th edition (which likely won't happen) over and over to the point that its causing alienation?
 
To be fair, we are now at the end of a 325+ post thread debating backwards and forwards about this, and the thread title makes it pretty obvious what the tone of the thread will be. If someone who doesn't like GW bashing has made it this far into the thread, they're really only got themselves to blame. I think the overall feel of the board is still quite open and positive.
 
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