1500 point VC vs. Rats and Elves

[thereturntrip]

Building a quick and dirty 1500 point army list versus Skaven, High Elves and Dark Elves


LORDS (17%)

Master Necromancer - Lvl 4, LoV, enchanted shield, ToP (250 pts)

HEROES (4%)

Necromancer - Lvl 1, LoV (xxx pts)

CORE (25%)

39 Skeletons - FC, Hand Weapon+Shield (225 pts)
20 Zombies - Musician, Standard (70 pts)
5 Dire Wolves - (40 pts)
5 Dire Wolves - (40 pts)

SPECIAL (39%)

30 Grave Guard - FC, Great Weapons, Banner of Barrows (440 pts)
5 Hexwraiths - (150 pts)

RARE (15%)

Terrorgheist - (xxx pts)


Since I feel that my buddies will likely have some magic weapons I've eased off of my use of ethereal characters (namely spirit hosts which I typically always use). I have still included 5 hexies to take some attention off my terrorgheist at 1500 points.

I have always used Vampire Lords in the past but have never played under 2000 points and it seems hard to justify that character at 1500 (please tell me if I am wrong here). Usually have bunkered my vampire lord in the skellies (5x8 ranks) and taken them into battle with banner of swiftness (BoS not included in this list). With the Master Necro I am wary and wondering how defensive I'll need to play with him vs. blender lord.

My hammer will be my graveyard unit (30 is all I own right now) and additional damage will be done by my hexwraiths (hopefully) as well as terrorgheist (plan to take down items like doom wheel etc. with this guy). Dire Wolves are for war machine hunting as well and will be in two units of 5. Zombie unit is to bunker my level 1 necro (is there any good reason to not take a standard/musician here?). Also, I own 6 crypt horrors and would be willing to put them in the list somewhere perhaps? One thought I had was to swap the TG for 6 Crypt Horrors with Crypt Haunter and cut the HW to swap the lvl 1 necro to a Vampire that can kill some stuff.

Curious if I should bunker my master necro in the skeletons or in the zombies. If I bunker my master necro in the zombies I would likely leave my lvl1 necro naked in the field. Please let me know your thoughts on how to bunker these characters properly.

Other than the list itself my main questions are:

(1) Do I have enough damage output?
(2) How should the 2 necros be bunkered?
(3) Musician and standard recommended for zombies?
(4) Is enchanted shield worth it for Master Necro?

Thanks guys for your help and lets keep the 8th alive!

 

[der vued]

1) yes. hexwraiths, tg and a solid block of gg are enough at 1.5k, even without a blender.
2) at your current list in the zombies and conditionally in the skellies.
3) a) musician yes, because of reform. b) sb only for tarpits or if needed for the mission.
4) yes, but since it's armour that's illegal. ;-)

i can't right figure out the role of the skellies. you have no char to fit in and alone they are an overexpensive tarpit. could you replace them by 2 units of zombies? then you have 2 bunkers for the necros and an additional tarpit. the necros can also move to the other units and grant your army more manouvarability.

 

[thereturntrip]

First off, thanks for your answer.

So, I could remove the standard from my unit of 20 zombies with minimal repercussions in your opinion? I am currently at 1505 points anyways so that is an easy fix.

Why can I not take enchanted shield on my master necro? It says in the 8th rulebook that I can take 100 points of magic items on him. Am I missing something? The idea for the armour would be so I could stick him in the back of the unit of 40 skeletons and he would still be semi-survivable.

I could replace the skeletons with zombies but currently only own 20 more zombies and thought I would likely need them on the sidelines for raising. Honestly, the only core I own for VC is 40 skeletons, 10 dire wolves, 30 crypt ghouls and 40 zombies so I'm not working with very much unfortunately. I wanted to skip out on the crypt ghouls since they are unpainted, I don't like the models, and it's a friendly match anyways. Thoughts?

Is it worth putting a necro in the GG? Since I was using that as a hammer I was afraid of putting a weak unit like a necro in it. Is this reasonable?

 

[Cela Shyish]

In the magic items section of the rulebook it states that wizards can't take magic armour unless they can take mundane armour, which vampires can take mundane armour so they can take magic stuff, but necromancers can't. As for the skeletons I am hesitant to say remove them, since they do have a big advantage over zombies when it comes to having hammer units, zombies surrender masses of combat res which can cause grave guard that support them to crumble or lose combat even. Meaning it can cut your tactical options or hinder you. So if you plan on flanking or counter charging, having a 5+ save and a 6+ parry can help to ease the strain of combat res in a way that zombies can't and I don't recommend putting the necro with the GG, not only does it put the necro in a dangerous position but it also takes away one of your +1 to hit S6 grave guard attacks in exchange for a S3 necro attack. It doesn't sound like much but it can be the difference in a combat. Hope this helps.

 

[thereturntrip]

Your reply certainly does help. I had no idea about that armour rule. So in your opinion does it make the most sense to put my master necromancer at the front of the skeleton unit and the baby necro in the zombies?

 

[Cela Shyish]

No no, Necros both as far from combat as possible, they're both lore of vampires right? if both are in the zombies and you happen to get raise dead on one of them, use the spell to create a second zombie bunker for one of the necros. Also totally blanked but see if you can make room in your points for a dispel scroll on the level 1, since typically they are used to carry one for insurance, I mean if someone casts a high value pit of shades or purple sun of xereus you'll want to guarantee its stopped rather than hoping for a high dice roll.

 

[Hellion Nox]

If you can fit in the book of arkhan, you should probably do so. Having access to 2 VHDM will get those GG to see combat, probably, on turn 2. Wich gives your opponent little time to whittle them down.
Once in combat, these guys rock at lower point games.
I would stay away from the T-bat. All armies that you're facing have very high LD (9-10). Skaven don't care about the meager casualties and have cannons/doomwheel to take him out easily.
Elves got Bolt throwers and the likes. HE have BotWD wich totally renders his shriek worthless

Edit:

I'd go with Periapt and ToP on the level 4
book of arkhan on the level 2 necro

35 GG with FC/GW/BOTB
Keep core as it is, might want to bring MOTD just to help increase those skeletons aswell.

Hexwraiths are great should you encounter HPA with skaven. But know that a smart skaven player will use his magic shooting to take them down quick.
They do benefit from VHDM a great deal aswell.

Vargheists are your friend (if you have them) I'd take those instead of the TG.
Don't need general bubble, ton of attacks, can hunt warmachines for you, provide target saturation.. Just be carefull with frenzy baiting

 

[thereturntrip]

I could take 6 crypt horrors in place of the terrorgheist. To be perfectly honest I just bought and painted a terrorgheist so I was more psyched to use it because of that but also cause it is such an amazing model. I don't own any vargheists.

I'd have to so some playing around with the list if I wanted to switch the TG for CH and add periapt, BoA and/or dispell scroll. I'd have to cut points from somewhere and it can't be core. I am traveling now but would guess those points would come from beefing out some CH in place of the TG and hexies. That may give me points to boost my lvl 1 necro to lvl 2 as you mentioned as well.

And yeah I can throw both my necros in the unit of zeds and attempt to raise another bunker for one to join during the game. Thoughts everyone? Thanks again.

 

[Hellion Nox]

Whilest I love hexwraiths I rarely see them make my lists because of the multitude of great units that we have.
In my opinion, hexwraiths serve best in a mounted lords list. So their movement does not get limited by the slow moving characters on foot. They perform amazing when given alot of range to operate and position themselves.

TG model is indeed a great looking model, though a pain to transport if you haven't magnetized wings.

Don't worry about playtesting several of the VC units and finding the match up that you feel best with. After all, it should be about the fun.
If you're looking to smash your opponent however, try to focus on excelling in 2 phases of the game.
Shooting phase is not going to be it for VC, but we're great at magic. Hence my suggestion on the BoA.

Necro Lvl 4 LoV, ToP & BoA
Necro Lvl 2 LoV, Dispell Scroll

This will give you all the spells that we have, making sure that you get double VHDM. I can vouch for it that you'll learn to love this spell even more than you will IoN

Edit: Consider taking the Ironcurse Icon if you have the points to spare. A ward save 6+ for the entire unit vs warmachine shooting for merely 5 points is ALWAYS worth it.

Core is good, Champions are mandatory as soon as you put characters in them.
Otherwise, more bodies (more wounds) is the prefered way to go. Core are tarpits after all.

Grave Guard. Great at lower point games especially when supported with double IoN and VHDM. Vigour is also good but comes in as third usefull spell for this unit (my opinion)

Crypt Horrors are great aswell. You can't really go wrong taking a set of these. Know that they'll suffer from flaming though.

Another unit that goes well with this list is a Mortis Engine. (if you have the points for it)
It is a support unit that does a mind boggling number of things, hence why it is often overlooked.
However Imagine casting with those necro's with an additional +2 to cast. Whilest some opponents might forgo on a level 4 at 1500 points.

 

[thereturntrip]

Thanks again. I have edited my list upon your suggestions. Please let me know what your thoughts are.

1448 Points (52 left to use until 1500)

LORDS (19%)

Master Necromancer - Lvl 4, LoV, ToP , Book of Arkhan (270 pts)

HEROES (9%)

Necromancer - Lvl 2, LoV, Dispell Scroll (125 pts)

CORE (25%)

40 Skeletons - FC, Hand Weapon+Shield (230 pts)
20 Zombies - Musician (65 pts)
5 Dire Wolves - (40 pts)
5 Dire Wolves - (40 pts)

SPECIAL (47%)

30 Grave Guard - FC, Great Weapons, Banner of Barrows (440 pts)
6 Crypt Horrors - Crypt Haunter (238 pts)

The main differences are I removed my Terrorgheist and Hexwraiths and replaced them with the Crypt Horrors. The lvl 1 necro got upgraded to a level 2 and got a dispel scroll. The master necro got the book of arkhan. The zombies standard bearer was removed and another core body was added in its place.

This list is only 1448 points so I still have 52 points left to play with. I could add Black Periapt to the lvl 4 master necro and move his book of arkhan onto the lvl 2 necro. Some other things I've considered include the master of the dead upgrade, ironcurse icon, screaming banner, and banner of swiftness.

Please let me know what you guys think and thanks again!

 

[Hellion Nox]

Looks good!

Should you wish, you could still make the following changes.

*Drop the champion from the skeleton warriors and add 1 more warrior.
*Add a banner to the zombie unit incase you'll be playing blood & glory.
*Drop the haunter from the CH's
*Add 5 more Grave Guard and deploy them 7 wide for optimal carnage

If you don't, with those spare points you could grab a spirit host and add the ironcurse icon on your Master Necro.

Apart from that, one tip I can give you is to keep your necro's close to the Grave Guard for healing purposes.

Enjoy!

 

[der vued]

@Hellion Nox The haunter in the CH's brings its own wound counter. That's the main reason why you take him imho. Example: The 6 CH's all take 1 wound due to a spell (not shooting or distributed like shooting). Without haunter this would be 4 CH's. With the Haunter the Haunter will go down to 2 wounds, and the CH's will take 5 wounds, so 5 models stay (with the same total number of wounds of course).

The GGs should in any case be deployed 7 wide, also with 30 bodies. Since the GGs are now your only punch, more bodies would be nice here.

Another suggestion for the spare points: a spirit host - especially in low point games they can be really annoying

 

[Hellion Nox]

@der vued I'm not really sure that I'm fully getting what you mean. (Might be because of the language barrier for me).

A Haunter is just a champion for CH's, so it brings 1 extra attack and possibility to accept/call challenges. You're basically just upgrading a CH (that you already payed for) to a guy with 1 extra attack. Not an extra model.
Apart from that, he'll just take wounds like any other CH, just as last one cause of him being the Champ. Stats are the same aswell apart from that extra attack.

Feel free to elaborate with an example if you want,

 

[der vued]

Yes, a haunter is just a champion. And yes, you only pay the upgrade, so don't get another model.
But a champion (unlike musicians and standart bearers) can circumstancially be hit seperately from its unit, e.g by templates (BRB p. 93).
Normally 6 wounds would kill 2 CHs with 3 wound each. If now 1 wound would be allocated to the haunter, only 1 CH would be killed, one CH would lose 2 wounds and the haunter loses 1 wound, because the haunters wound is not transferred to the rest of the unit. And therefore leaves you with more models and more attacks for the combat.

On a side note: I think that this rule is stupid, but it you play RAW you can use this to exploit it as described above.

Edit: Please someone correct me if I'm talking bullshit here. o.o

 

[Hellion Nox]

I see.

I might be wrong but I do believe that shooting is most often distributed towards the unit as a whole. So wounds will most often be taken from the back.
Sniper or direct dmg will be wasted on the champion. And you'd have to fail or choose not to take the LoS! for the champion.
But I do see the benefit that you're referring too, though I think this might be on a rare occasion.

I personally would still not go with a haunter. Because CH's to me are a nice blob of wounds meant to take a punch.
If they're fighting something that they can easily kill, their anvil-ness is likely wasted. So would I consider the extra attack from the Haunter to be wasted.
If they die too easily, they're most likely fighting something out of their league.

Hence why I only take champions in units that house my characters. I always take Musi/banner though.