1500 points against DE

[billybaker101]

Hey all

As the advice you guys imparted last time helped so much i am looking for more guidance for my next matchup against DE. Its not for another week or so so i have time to add models and paint stuff up ready here is what i have so far. Same principles as last list really.

Master necromancer lv 4 top

Vamp lv 1 barded steed HA sword of swift slaying Red fury

5 dire wolves
5 dire wolves

35 zombies standard
30 zombies standard
30 zombies standard

8 x Black knights command, barded, lances

6 x crypt horrors

1 x TG

Im wondering if all those zombs are a good idea or if i should change it up a bit?

 

[Ustrello]

Lots of zombies are always a good idea. Once again keep the bunker to a simple twenty and combine the others into a 65 block.

 

[Ustrello]

75 I am sorry

 

[billybaker101]

Oh right yeah forgot about the bunker already. You think go for just the one block? i thought it might give me some more options to split them into a block of 35 and 40 and 20 for the bunker? what with invo and all

 

[billybaker101]

Also would that be 5 wide still or horde?

 

[Ustrello]

5 wide to cut down on the number of hits they absorb, also since it is a DE player they will most likely be running witch elves and or executioners with a blood cauldron, they will pop any small unit especially those wil no saves what so ever. Another idea would be to put a corpse cart behind the zombies and give them ASF taking away the DEs ASF and denying them their re rolls

 

[billybaker101]

hmmm thats a really interesting idea only problem is how to jig it around to make the points available hmmm my only concern with that would be the cart being shot down before it could achieve its goal.

 

[Ustrello]

You can drop the vampire and replace him with a Wight king w/ lance skeletal steed and barding, shield, and a dragon helm for 123 then you can get a corpse cart with a balefire upgrade for 105 and have 6 left over points

 

[Skittelz1981]

Dont take the wight king, he has ld 9, making him ur general with master necro having only ld 8.
wightking survivability sucks compared to the babyvamp, also packs less punch (except for killing blow, but what are the odds with 3 attacks).

Again, it still depends on what ur de enemy fields.
I have played alot against 8th ed de, one block of 65 zombies wouldnt be my choice, its one tarpit that needs to have that one target pinned down 100% otherwise its a failure. I have had more luck with smaller zombie posses and use them as redirectods.
Witchelves are frenzy, with a hag there is -3ld so the chances they have to charge are big, if u can redirect that succesfully making him fail overruns etc its gonna take him 3-4 turns slaying silly zombies while u can use your entire effective force on the rest of his army.

What scares me most in lowpointgames like this, are chaarcteheavy lists from de, with flying manticores and coldone knights, far more versatile than a block of witchelves with a cauldron.
The we/cauldron posse, depending on how large it is, is something u have nothing against. unless u can flank it with ur bk, and even then u have to make sure that the bk are the only unit in combat or u gonna crumble on CR.

 

[Mr. West]

Dont take the wight king, he has ld 9, making him ur general with master necro having only ld 8.
wightking survivability sucks compared to the babyvamp, also packs less punch (except for killing blow, but what are the odds with 3 attacks).

Dude, just go back to the beginning and re-read your armybook.
The Wight King cannot ever be the general.
Also, a Wight King actually has better chances of survival against certain eniemes than the hero level Vampire has. But that's just a sidenote.

Master necromancer lv 4 top

Vamp lv 1 barded steed HA sword of swift slaying Red fury

5 dire wolves
5 dire wolves

35 zombies standard
30 zombies standard
30 zombies standard

8 x Black knights command, barded, lances

6 x crypt horrors

1 x TG

Keep the Master Necromancer and a bunker of zombies for his highness. One concept of De lists is it to aim for magical dominance. Don't let them.

The hero level Vampire is your back up caster AND the only character with ASF. Keep him. I'd opt for a different kit though, but that's personal taste.

Even if it would be additional points sunk into hero level characters, a Wight King with the Nightshroud might actually benefit your BK bus against DE given the right charge circumstances.
It'll be expensive though.
I'd propably opt for a Banshee myself at this points level, simply to have more ethereal spam and a second set of (albeit weaker) screams.

If you can, switch some of those wolves for Spirit Hosts.

Number of zombies seems about right for this point size, but I almost never utilize them myself. Against DE, I'd eventually re-size them into two units of 40 and a bunker of 25.

Black Knights want to ditch the champion and grab the Banner of Swiftness.

Crypt Horrors are pretty damn good ... but you don't want for them to get stuck in a melee with Witch Elves.

It's kinda hard to say what would benefit your list best at this point though. DE lists can be pretty damn versatile as it is. Sure, 'standard' lists nowadays feature Witch Elves & CoB because people still dig their death stars, or huge blocks of Execs 'cause folks believe they're the 'killiest' special choice right now.
Personally, I tend to favour other things in their new book.
The problem is, DE really shine in terms of unit synergy and could propably bring a huge variation of potential lists if they wanted. Skirmish / fast cav spam being the most problematic for VC at this point if they manage to outmaneuver you first.

So, if you'd know what your DE opponent usually brings to the table, the advice might be more sound. But then again, wouldn't that be tailoring ...

 

[billybaker101]

These are some really interesting ideas. Im liking the mounted wight. Im loving the idea of using a corpse cart ive had the model for ages and as of yet havnt used it. out of interest mr west how would you deck out the vamp differently?

 

[Corien Sumatris]

I'm gonna jump in and steal some of Mr. West's thunder, sorry buddy lol.

I would run that vamp like:

Vamp (Lvl 1, LoV, Steed, HA, Charmes Sheild, Lance, ToE, Red Fury)

Use that Corpse Cart to give that vamp ASF. And if you fail then it's not a huge deal anyways. You're still not going to get your rerolls and you probably won't die due to a 2+/4++ and the charmed sheild ingoring the first hit on a 2+.

I'm also gonna say 1+ on the Wight King, give that bad boy Nightshroud and watch him and the vamp he's next to not die!

 

[billybaker101]

but my corpse cart wont be able to keep up though right? Wont that nullify some of the vamps bad ass iness?

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Yes and no, ASF won't really do a whole bunch for you. It's not worth losing the strength bonus for. Red Fury will do you no good if they just keep making all of their saves.

 

[billybaker101]

that makes sense +2 on the charge i guess just gotta make sure it maximizes damage on that first round of combat. the cc can still help them zombs though huh.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Oh yeah, minimizing the amount of damamge coming in is huge!! That is what makes zombies good so you taking away the rerolls is a big freakin deal lol.

 

[billybaker101]

Just out of curiosity the DE guy asked if we could up the points to 1800 if this was the case would the cursed book be an option for my mounted vamp too? Make sure he gets that charge ready and all? Im liking the idea of the point raise as i can squeeze some more of these ideas in that have been mentioned.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

YES!! Cursed book is the BEST item in the VC army book for sure!!

 

[billybaker101]

ok he just mailed me his list so this is how it looks


lords
supreme sorceress 290
lvl4
tome of furion
talisman of preservation
heroes
marster 209
bsb
great weapon
sea dragon cloak
heavy armor
dark pegasus
cloak of twilight
core
black ark corsairs 360
30 corsairs
full command
2x hand weapons
special
shades 180
10x shades
great weapons

war hydra 180
fiery breath

war hydra 180
fiery breath

rare
bloodwreak medusa 90

Any changes to make?

 

[billybaker101]

Im wondering if i should include some SH to hold some of these up. Im not seeing any magic weapons so they could be quite effective.

 

[Mr. West]

Yup, Spirit Hosts definitely. Though it would be a little bit of tailoring in this case ...

Oh, and Corien, no need to be sorry, you just refined what I started.


As for that DE list ...

It looks like it's not really something ot be afraid of, tbh.
Lots of points are simply wasted, or could have been spend better.
There are some synergies in there, but nothing using the full potential of the new DE book.
That sorceress ... she's a level 4 on Dark Magic, thus Tome of Furion is just wasted points.
The BSB on pegasus is the obvious babysitter for the Hydras. This guy would be my priority target, with him out of the game Hydras will be stuck with their LD of 6 when not near the sorceress (a place they shouldn't be).
30 Black Arc Corsairs and 10 Shades are nothing a VC need to be afraid of.
The Bloodwrack Medusa on foot is one of the most terrible units one can bring to the table. Oh, don't get me wrong, I would glady include them in one my lists, but only because the model is awesome, not because she'd do anything remotely good.
There are ways to make her usable though, but it's rather costly and one could spend those points elsewhere.
All that aside, VC don't need to be afraid of her.

As for your Vampire hero, Billy, Sword of Swift Slaying and Red Fury plus the WK bringing the Shroud is a nice combination, but I'd try to protect the Vampire a bit better. Either kit characters out as best as you can, or keep them ass-cheap, at least that's my opinion on characters. I'd prolly bring his armour save up to 2+ re-rollable if nothing else.

 

[billybaker101]

Its really tricky trying to squeze in all the goodies at 1500 points but thats what we agreed so i cant chop and change this game. Next game however...
I think i might follow your lead mr west keep the vamp as cheap as poss to fit in the spirit host i cant fit in vamp and wight this game and i dont really want to lose a caster so the vamp is gonna stay. So the list is goin to read some thing like this


Master necromancer lv 4 top

Vamp lv 1 barded steed HA lance enchanted shield talisman of protection

5 dire wolves
5 dire wolves

20 zombies standard
35 zombies standard
40 zombies standard

8 x Black knights banner, barded, lances

1x spirit host

6 x crypt horrors

1 x TG