2250 - All-comers - Magic & Black Knights

[Hoenheim]

Greetings once again fellow Vampires!

I have deviced another list, and I was hoping for some input. Instead of moaning for several paragraphs, this time I'll hide my comments beneath the units.

Behold:

Edit: Updated list
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Lords:

Vampire Lord
-Level 4 Wizard
----
Vampiric:
-Master of the Black Arts
-Dark Acolyte
-Lord of the Dead
----
Magical:
-Blood Drinker
-Staff of Damnation
-Nightshroud
----
Points: 450
Heavy caster hybrid. Goes in Grave Guard and replenishes them with Blood Drinker. Staff of Damnation to make the Anvil line + any Hammer backup kill more, and because that + Nightshroud fits very well with my fluff.


Heroes:

Wight King (BSB)
-BSB
-Skeletal Steed
-(Wight) Lance
-The Royal Banner of Strigos
Points: 162
Goes in 5-man Black Knight unit.


Necromancer
Spell: Vanhels Danse Macabre
Item: The Book of Arkhan
Corpse Cart
w/ Lodestone
Points: 190
Goes in skeleton unit 1.


Necromancer
Spells: Raise Dead
Item: Sceptre de Noirot
Corpse Cart
w/ Lodestone
Points: 180
Goes in Skeleton unit 2.


Troops:

10x Skeleton Warriors
Hand Weapons and Shields
Full Command
Points: 100
To be raised in turn one...

10x Skeleton Warriors
Hand Weapons and Shields
Full Command
Points: 100
...eight PD on 3+ IoN w/ Lodestones should do the trick..

18x Ghouls
Points: 144
Goes on one of the flanks.

5x Dire Wolves
Points: 40
Either hunts artillery with the Varghulf or cancels rank bonuses for the blocks.


Special:

20x Grave Guard
Great Weapons
Full Command
Banner of the Barrows
Points: 335
With +1 to hit, GW's and hopefully ASF, this is my mainstay castle. Goes between the two skeleton beneath 2x CC Miasma, and houses the Lord w/Blood Drinker heal.

5x Black Knights
Full Command
Banner of Hellish Vigour
Points: 175
Wight King BSB goes here for added hittyness and Strigos hatred. Runs on opposite flank from Varghulf.

6x Black Knights
Full Command
Banner of the Dead Legion
Points: 199
Basic hammer. Unit strength 24 for fear autobreak might be a nasty surprise.


Rare:

Varghulf
'Nuff said
Points: 175
Can't go wong with these badman's. He'll give march to 6-BK's on one flank.

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Power Dice: 10 + 4 Bound Spells
Dispel Dice: 6
Points: 2250

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There we are. Strategy in a nutshell: slow stuff goes in the middle, cramped together around the Lord with a CC on each side (overlapping on the GG). The Varghulf strolls up one flank with his Wolves and 6-Black Knight friends, while the Wight King grabs the 5-Black Knights and heads for the other flank. Cue pincer manouvre


Any and all feedback vastly appreciated!


-The Hohenheim

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

The Lord setup is absolutely fantastic, I mean only a genius would think up a Lord like that............incidentally that is the setup of my Lord, with the exception I give her the sword of Might instead, useful if she does get challenged and also means not ethereal shenanigans holding up my vamp.

Personally in this list I wouldn't have the lord in the GG but in a Bunker behind them, you want the GG to get into combat which is exactly the place the vamp wants to avoid.

I actually quite like this list, some hard hitting elements and solid core backed up by a decent magic phase, whilst it doesn't stray into the realm of cheese.

So thumbs up from me, the only other pointer is be careful with the Hate of the Black Knights, clever opponents will use it to set you up for a flank charge.

 

[Hoenheim]

Thanks for your comments Disciple

The Lord setup is absolutely fantastic, I mean only a genius would think up a Lord like that............incidentally that is the setup of my Lord

He he. Great minds think alike, no? About the sword and etherals; if any pesky etherals want to charge my super-Grave Guard, fine, bring it!
It may be the best tactical choice to move the Lord in a bunker... but I never really fancied bunkers. Doesn't seem fluffy at all, it looks weird and I'll generally feel dirty if I ever use one. And since the GG's want to get into combat... well, he's a mighty fine Bait
Oh and sometimes I'll use Lore of Fire and bust out a Sword of Rhuin as the last spell of each phase when I'm stuck in. The huge array of magic missiles are kind of wasted in CC though. He could do the dodge move and swap to whichever Skeleton unit is out of harms way if need be...


Consideration points:
-Putting Black Periapt on Necro and get decent armour on Lord.
-Buying 10 more ghouls and putting 15 on each flank.
-A shiny banner for BK unit 2.

Any and all comments vastly appreciated!

-The Hohenheim

 

[Black Soul]

Well, from what I'm learning Hohenheim your list seems sound and ready for blood.

 

[Hoenheim]

The Lord setup is absolutely fantastic, I mean only a genius would think up a Lord like that

Buggery 'ell! I just found out I had two Arcane's on him. Genious indeed >.< Atleast now I have a reason to put Periapt on Necro and buy some better armour for him... changes in first post, any thoughts?


Any and all further comments vastly appreciated.


-The Hohenheim

 

[Grish]

Its the same with your Necromancer, Scepter and Black Periapt. Can't have it.

I also think a pair of corpse carts aren't worth it. Perhaps switch one to Balefire, or get rid of one completely. Think of other ways to spend 100 pts to buff up your army.

 

[Hoenheim]

Augh, somehow I always end up with too many Arcane items... now I've dropped the Periapt, because I think the freee Danse and Zombie Raiser of doom are better choices on the Necro's, and for the Lord I really want the Staff. Do you think I should find a way to stick the Periapt in there or is this good enough?

About the Corpse Carts. I think these are really great both modelwise and ruleswise. In the skeleton units, they'll provide a huge unit filler, while adding some minor hurt in combat. Also both the necro's sit relatively safely there. I've got all my blocks under the Miasma (with the GG covered by two to make sure their GW's get ASF). Since I'm going to be raising quite a lot, I think the two Lodestones will be worth it as well, but if any can convince me I might switch to one or even two Balefires. Does the modifier work on dispel attempts as well? -2 to dispel would be great...

-The Hohenheim

 

[Grish]

Ah. Well if you're one of those players in a group that says it counts as unit filler to provide rank bonuses, then its very effective. However, my group will say it doesn't.

There are endless debates on this. We play as it counts as a single model for unit filler. It is not clear in the book what it actually counts as.

 

[Hoenheim]

What? How on earth do you count up ranks then? I'd think it counted as the number of skeleton it displaced.
But let's discuss that in another topic.

Do you think the flanking units are good enough to get in there and kill stuff? As mentioned I'd think the 6-Black Knight unit might need a magic banner, and with the Periapt out I might find the points.

Somebody also suggested giving the Lord Helm of Commandment and 9" move, and have him run around on his own. Would that be viable at all, or will he just get sniped no matter how well I hide him?

Thanks in advance.

-The Hohenheim

 

[Grish]

Easy. Ranks bonus = models/5. EDIT: it's really (models - 5)/5 rounding down. But I'm sure everyone knew what I meant

I'd put the lord in a unit. Having him run around on his own doesn't appeal to me. All he needs is a spell targetting himself (lvl 6 spell off of lore of light, foot of gork, HoD arrow, 2d6 magic missles, etc, etc. You're mainly infantry anyways, so I don't see why you'dneed to run around that much. Helm of Commandment is, in my opinion, one of our strongest items. Give an entire unit WS7 for its points. Its really good. Most builds I see include it if you want a competitive build.

 

[Hoenheim]

So would you advice dropping the armour and give him Helm of Commandment in addition to the Skull Staff then? I'd see how the Helm could do wonders for this list, what with all the Black Knights and Grave Guard running around. Although he will be stuck in CC some of the time with the GG, I could resolve those combats first in the hope of breaking the enemy (not very unlikely ) and then passing the WS on to BKs or the skeletons.

If I do that, I'll have 13 points spare. Now, if I drop a skeleton from each unit (11 to 10 won't really matter I guess, and it sounds cleaner) then I've got 29 points for a magic banner for the other BKs. Since I've used up most of the good banners, I'd probably go for a simple War Banner, but the Banner of the Dead Legion could cut it as well... which one would you choose?

Thanks for all your comments.

-The Hohenheim

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

The helm of commandment is good but if your going to use it you are going to have to bunker the lord, the GG will benefit most from the the helm (most of the time hitting and wounding on 2's) but you will not be able to use it of the lord is in BtB. But that way you have focused your lord which is not a bad thing and I would think it would work well in this list, go for it!

@ Dead Legion, autobreak through outnumbering fear on cavalry will really shock your opponent.

 

[Eldhar]

as for banner, Dead Legion is my choice of banner for Black Knights. I love the combination. I almost always take a warbanner in my armies tho, no matter what race I play. (In the campaign I'm in atm I just stole another warbanner, so I'll be using two

 

[D.Sanchez]

Drop the skull staff too many points for only a +1 to cast and dispell. You definitely need the black periapt. If you want to make a caster lord bunker him behing the GG in a skeleton unit with the helm. I would take the Crimson Gem of Lahmia instead of the skull staff. If you plan on bunkering him, let him take a wound for an extra power dice. You could always IoN the wound back. Also I would give the GG the banner of Strigos just in case they wiff in the first round. Would be cruticial(that is if you bunker the lord with the helm). GG are only WS3. The wight lord should carry the banner of barrows.

 

[Nedar]

Skull Staff + Helm of Command lord in a bunker is one of the most powerful things the new VC can do...especially if you are running a unit of GG since you can IoN them back on a 3+ as well as skeletons with a +2 modifier.

Other than bunkering your lord and making sure both black knight units have a banner, I like your list.

As for the ranks for the CC...my store manager insists that a CC is one model in one rank, when it clearly is 1 model in 5 ranks. The rulebook clearly states that you need 5 models in each rank to get the rank bonus, so unless you rank all following skeletons up BEHIND the CC so there is a gap between the front rank and rest of the unit it would be illegal or count for all 5 ranks.

(models-5)/5 is now how you come up with the rank bonus, that is no where in the book. It is +1 for each complete rank after the first if it contains 5 or more models.

Suffice to say, I don't put CCs in units anymore. The necro dies too easily one the unit gets into combat anyway.

 

[Grish]

I somewhat agree with what Nedar says. I also think bunkering your lord isn't always so great. I find hybrid builds work very well, or combat builds. You're bunkering a WS7, S5, T5, A4 character, not wanting to get them into combat. You're paying points for those stats, and not using them. The helm can be used by a vampire thrall while a survivable lord goes into combat.

 

[chris_havoc]

I don't know if it would work but would it not maybe be a cool idea for the black knights to have the endless legion banner and the bsb to have the one where units roll 3 dice for fear and discard the lowest? It's rare that an infantry unit is bigger than 20 and could cause a couple armies to run around being scared of everything.

 

[Hoenheim]

Thanks for all your feedback lads.

I've pondered about things, and figured out that I won't be doing a Bunker anytime soon. It just doesn't appeal to me at all and I play this game for the fun. As a result, I won't be taking the helm either (Lord in combat and I've got no Vampire). I hope this'll make my list less mainstream and avoid certain cries of "cheese"!

So, onto the changes. I've turned my Lord into more of a hybrid caster. He'll still go in GG, and now he will also be healing them with Blood Drinker. The other two choices are more fluff-oriented. The Nightshroud fits very well with how I'll model him. The Staff of Damnation is a great representative of the way Hohenheim infuses his minions with demonic power sort of old Hellish Vigor style. I'm taking the Staff over the Periapt for now... if you've got any ideas for other lord builds that'll fit in the GG (no bunkers!) hit me please

Furthermore, I've simply stripped some points from Core and bought the 6-Black Knights unit the Banner of the Dead Legion. (Also the points for the Wight King were wrong, so I've compensated for that. The Ghouls are now 18, and I'm thinking about going 6x3 with them... is this stupid or fine?

Alright, updated army list Edited into my first post. What do you think people?

-The Hohenheim

 

[Grish]

Personally I think I'd put some kind of ward save on my general, but that's me. Having a champion challenge character killers on his behalf and using your blood drinker to replenish him will hopefully be enough protection. With blooddrinker and 4 attacks, infinite hatred may come in handy. Or if your strapped from points, the +1 magic upgrade for your vampire lord may be dropped. 50pts for an extra PD and spell seems hefty in your current lord build. The dual corpse carts I didn't originally like but in this build I think they could be used to replenish black knights if it came to it. Gives them more flexibility.

 

[Eldhar]

I don't know if it would work but would it not maybe be a cool idea for the black knights to have the endless legion banner and the bsb to have the one where units roll 3 dice for fear and discard the lowest? It's rare that an infantry unit is bigger than 20 and could cause a couple armies to run around being scared of everything.

lol! I did this once. 5 black knights with a wight king bsb. It was awesome My opponent tried time and time again to charge my unit with his pegasus knights, but failed fear test every time I usually end up not taking the screaming banner for some reason, but I love it when I do ^^

 

[Nedar]

I have to say. Today I spent a good 5 or 6 hours learning how to play Warhammer better with a pro. He's won like 4 or 5 GTs, and many other awards.

I took his advice to heart and played a game today with a new list based on things i learned, and let me tell you something. The Screaming Banner is PHENOMINAL...I have my lord causing terror and he runs with a 6x3 unit of Grave Guard with GWs. Since terror counts as a fear check, anyone trying to charge him will be rolling 3d6 and losing the lowest, they fail they run away.

This allows me to pretty much march my generals unit wherever I want and dictate when the charge will happen.

I also used a BotDL BK unit today, and it rocks. I might move my wight BSB here for the +2 CR, and it'll be one scary unit to content with.

As for your lord, I would suggest tooling him more combat oriented. Drop MotDA for Red Fury alone is a HUGE boost, though best paired with Infinite Hatred. If you were going to chose one, i'd for the hatred and drop DA. I used to have Red Fury, DA, LotD on mine, it has subsequently changed to Red Fury, IH, and Terror. With Blood Drinker and Bloody Hauberk. I like the staff, but more defense would be nice...however as stated earlier a champion will help him stay alive very well.

Consider moving the Staff to the necro with Sceptre, you can get the staff into better spots that way and free up points for more defensive items or whatnot.

I like your knights, though I'd drop the 5 strong for wraiths personally. I love those ethereal screaming bastards to death.

 

[Eldhar]

Are you sure the screaming banner works for terror tests as well?

If so, where can I find confirmation on this?

the description says "Enemy units taking a Fear test caused by the unit..."
And it seems to me that the rulebook separates Fear and Terror tests quite clearly.

 

[zeppelin]

I somewhat agree with what Nedar says. I also think bunkering your lord isn't always so great. I find hybrid builds work very well, or combat builds. You're bunkering a WS7, S5, T5, A4 character, not wanting to get them into combat. You're paying points for those stats, and not using them. The helm can be used by a vampire thrall while a survivable lord goes into combat.

I HATE survivable lords, cause they are generals!!! And what happens to a vampire army when a simple killing blow kills the general..... svoosh broom, NO ARMY:grin:

so if you let him be in a unit in front rank - I'm just gonna dispell those asf's and send my tomb scorpions to slay the foolish general and happily watch the undead army falling apart:mrgreen:

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I somewhat agree with what Nedar says. I also think bunkering your lord isn't always so great. I find hybrid builds work very well, or combat builds. You're bunkering a WS7, S5, T5, A4 character, not wanting to get them into combat. You're paying points for those stats, and not using them. The helm can be used by a vampire thrall while a survivable lord goes into combat.

I HATE survivable lords, cause they are generals!!! And what happens to a vampire army when a simple killing blow kills the general..... svoosh broom, NO ARMY:grin:

so if you let him be in a unit in front rank - I'm just gonna dispell those asf's and send my tomb scorpions to slay the foolish general and happily watch the undead army falling apart:mrgreen:

I take it you fight many incompetent VC generals who send their lord to the front without decent protection then?

Trust me, if you see my lord in the front of a unit I've taken pains to make sure he can survive combat, possibly at the extent of my magic phase, but then again who knows? I could still have two necro's nearby with Vanhels and two CC with miasma, or my lord might even have the Nightshroud, Crown if the Damned, Sword of Might, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred and Beguile and is really going to make a mess out of that tomb scorpion.....

Never make silly mistakes by rushing forward for what looks like big easy targets, any general worth his salt will have thought ahead and you will simply be playing into his plan.

 

[zeppelin]

You might think ahead, but that is the way I use scorpions - since VC have no shooting:mrgreen:.

...or my lord might even have the Nightshroud, Crown if the Damned, Sword of Might, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred and Beguile and is really going to make a mess out of that tomb scorpion.....

Sometimes the tactic I have is all or nothing, and it's quite a bet. Either I lose a 85 points scorpion, or you lose a battle... Wait, wait, wait - when you have nightshroud and scorp charges you, you strike first, right? If that is right, I say you're ready for anything that wahts to kill your vamp. And why would you be scarred of TK, as if....

And 4 attacks with killing blow is not a silly mistake