2250 Repaceable/Static Combat Resolution VC List

[thewrathchilde]

I wanted this list to focus mainly on old school healable and replaceability with a battle line that has some good static combat resolution enhanced with characters for some extra punch. The characters are designed to be as survivable as I could make them without mounting them or using "stupid" items. I wanted them to be survivable, be able to add some decent punch to the combat units, and support a fairly strong magic phase to keep the army full, growing, and moving. The BKs are included as they can now be healed and with ethereal movement make a better substitution for spirit hosts as flankers due to their toughness and armor save- given the amount of magical attacks out their that make hosts not near as viable choice as they were a few years ago.

new VC list:

Count- Level Three, Red Fury, Lord of the Dead, Avatar of Death, Walach’s Bloody Hauberk, Book of Arkhan, Cursed Book @ 420 pts

Vampire- Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Flayed Hauberk, Black Periapt, Biting Blade @ 190 pts

Vampire- Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of the Lycni @ 175

Necromancer- Extra Spell, Dispel Scroll, Power Stone @ 115


*Corpse Cart- Unholy Loadstone @ 100 pts
Skeletons x 24- Full Command, Banner of Endless Nightmare @ 237 pts
Skeletons x 24- Full Command, Banner of Hellfire @ 222
Skeletons x 12 @ 96 pts
Zombies x 20- Musician @ 84 pts

24 x Grave Guard- Full Command, War Banner @ 343
6 x Black Knights- Barding @ 168

Varghulf @ 175

Total: 2250
Models: 116

Few things I am still debating; one of these is the Corpse Cart w/unholy loadstone. Without making it the Necro's mount it can't join a unit and would be free range behind my main battle line. With the loadstone it gives +1 model to each Invocation tageting a unit within six inches of the cart. Behind my lines with a 50mm frontage that the six inch radius it would basically be ble to cover a thirteen inch deployment block of the battle line. This would enable it to reach all four of my primary battle line units- the Grave Guard, both large skeletons, and the zombies; its range would fully envelop two of the units with a two inch gap between them and clip the two flanking units with an inch and a half space between them and the center units. The two main reasons I am considering the cart at the +1 model on invocations and the bound spell. With the bbound spell hitting all the same units- of which three would likely have the characters in it- they become a lot more survivable with the strike first. The Vampires whould do enough damage to most charging units (when the spell goes off) to minimize the casualties the units take. On the other side, the bonus to invocation should net me an additional 2-3 models per turn. If these numbers are accurate that should allow the cart to pay for 50-60% of its value in the first 4 turns just in summoning not counting the potential combat benefits.

The other piece I am debating with the cart is the value of making the cart the mount for the necro. I think this would make the cart more survivable as it would then (as a ridden monster) be able to join the back (12 man) unit of skeletons behind my lines and not be able to be picked out with shooting. However, this does make the necro more accessable in combat and less maneuverable when he is on the run from character hunters and requires him to remain central to the army to get the maximum benefit from the cart instead of being able to run him near a flank to support that area with spells which the other characters are in the central fight.....this is a debate I will just have to play-test some to determine which I line the best.

My other primary debate is the value of the second vampire (Vampire- Dark Acolyte, Avatar of Death, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of the Lycni @ 175). I can make up the additional magic he brings simply by converting the Red Fury to Master of the Dark Arts on the Boss. Primarily he adds hitting power to a third combat unit and offers the flexibily of the 18" solo charge to chariot hunt or go after other soft targets. I really like his configuration and the flexibility he offers but I look at the points cost and am not too happy with him. The same amount of points could get a second varghulf, another unit of black knights, some other support units, or be used to significantly increase the size and stability of all my current units.

My problem with all of these choices is that while I can easily make up the magic he brings by swapping around the boss, it would be at the expense of combat effectiveness on the boss. I think the varghulf would make up for the combat power of the lost hero but I don't know that it would make up for both the loss of power from the hero and the decreased combat power of the boss. I think initially I will play a few games with it like this and then decide if I want to try it the other way without the second vampire.

One other piece I don't like is the absence of ghouls. A unit of ghouls brings a lot to the table for fighting against unarmed opponents (slayers, swarms, flaggellents, etc). With decent initiative, two attacks, and poison they can do significant damage to these types of targets and with their toughness even do all right against normal ranked infantry. Though I was initially dissappointed about their becoming undead and losing skirmish in some of the above roles they are actually better now as they are healble and unbreakable. The main reason I haven't fit them in is I have an issue with fielding multiple troop types that I can't take above starting stength. I don't mind that restirction with the GG and BKs as I don't need to take them above starting and at least can now heal them; however, with something as fragile as the ghouls (with undead rule/crumbling to combat resolution) I do have an issue there as I can't afford the other Master power to be able to increase them above starting size. Granted with 15 of them- if I fit in the points- it might not be an issue, I would just have to use them more carefulyl than I would like. Initially I will try a few games without them and then see if I need them or not.

All in all, above is the list I am currently looking at for VC under the new book. The changes will be tested after I have got in some games with it but for now this is the list I will start with. Feel free to provide some feedback and critiques of either the army as a whole or specific pieces you don't like with reasoning for/against the choices.

WC

 

[VladtheLad]

Infantry FTW.

I like it, its a very vampire countish list. All those undead slowly marching will be very impressive.
It seems solid and I generally agree with your commnets.

If the unholy loadstone doesn't prove its use in this army, it never will.

Regarding the vampire: Enchaned shield and avatar of death don't really fit together. Using a great weapon disallows the shield, while using a hand weapon and shield is the same as using hand weapon and enchanted shield.

 

[Lord Fear]

If it seems like a weird combo, then it's probably been decided on for a reason Hand weapon and enchanted shield gives a better save than the usual HW+S (It's only if it's a magic weapon that the bonus is lost). Also look at what else that Vampire is armed with, the Talisman of the Lycni: that should tell you that this Vampire will probably be out in the open sometimes, when having a 3+ armour save thanks to the enchanted shield will be very useful.

Very nice list by the way, it's good to see someone who can come up with a list with heavy core and still be confident in its abilities. 7 points for a Skeleton is a steal these days and they are well worth it! My only suggestion would be maybe put the battle standard on one of the vampires, the extra point of CR (And other bonuses) for 25 points is well worth it.

 

[VladtheLad]

I don't get it. Hand weapon shield provides 5+ armor save right?
Don't enchanted shield and hand weapon provide the same save? :S

 

[Lord Fear]

In combat a model fighting with hand weapon and shield gets a 5+ save. If the shield is enchanted, it can still be used alongside a hand weapon, so it's 4+ save. But note that a magic weapon could not be combined with the shield. Now let's not clutter this thread up with rules clarifications...

 

[thewrathchilde]

Regarding the vampire: Enchaned shield and avatar of death don't really fit together. Using a great weapon disallows the shield, while using a hand weapon and shield is the same as using hand weapon and enchanted shield.

The Enchanted Shield/Avatar of Death configuration is there for maximum flexibility. As he doesn't have a mgic weapon he has the option of choosing to either use the Great Weapon from Avatar to strike at strength 7 or to use HW/SHD to improve his armor save to 2+ with his heavy armor, Enhcanted shield, and the parry bonus for HW. Generally if the carts bound spell is in effect he will use the great weapon unless the unit is fighting something it isn't likely to break and will be in a protracted combat with. He will use HW/SHD if it is going to be a multi-turn combat. The great weapon is also there to give me the flexibility to auto-kill chariots and go after small knight detachments, solo characters, etc using the Talisman for the movement to jump out of the unit.

My only suggestion would be maybe put the battle standard on one of the vampires, the extra point of CR (And other bonuses) for 25 points is well worth it.

The BSB is something I considered but choose to forgo as I am not happy with how survivable you can make one on foot without using up the toys I am already using. However, by simply adding it to my first Vampire who already has the Flayed Hauberk I could add the bonus without sacrificing survivability. The BSB bonus would allow me to have a third +6 combat resolution unit by putting him in the unit with the Banner of Hellfire or offer me the option of having a +7 unit if I choose to put him in the other big unit of skeletons or the grave guard.

The big question would be where the best place to take the points out of would be without compromising the integrity of the list. I really see a few of options- 1. drop banner of Hellfire and two skeletons, 2. drop three skeletons and the musician from the zombies, 3. drop the barding off the black knights and the zombie musician. Obviously there are plenty of more options but these are what I see are the best. Option number two is probably the route I would take as I really want to keep the banenr of hellfire- a unit with flaming and magical attacks (especially when the character in the unit would benefit as well) is something I think is worth including and the banner is worth more than 1 skeleton that I can summon anyway.

Will wait another day to see if there are any other changes I want to make before updating the list accordingly. Thanks for the comments and feedback; any other feedback is welcome also.

WC

 

[Grish]

I really like this list. For a tournament its great; not sure how fun it is, it's a meat grinder which would be very difficult to give up VPs. A very frustrating list to play against I would think.

I would definitely include the BSB on the flayed hauberk character. It would really add that one extra point of CR to autobreak an enemy. I'd drop a skeleton and zombie musician. I'd like to see the unit the zombie's fight that the musician's win the day. If you can come up with the math and a likely scenario please post.

 

[N.I.B]

A solid list, backed up by really strong magic. But you lack the always versitile Dire Wolves, I'd ditch the Zombies for 2x5. But we wont go into that discussion again (you know that a min-sized raised unit of diverting Zombies gives away more victory points than a min-sized unit of Wolves?) Oops, sorry

If not Wolves, then add another Corpse Cart with Balefire instead of Zombies.

Corpse Carts are easily screened from shooting in an army like this, but Necros are best on foot in a bunker, more flexible and survivable.

If the unholy loadstone doesn't prove its use in this army, it never will.

Loadstones gives the most points back with Black Knights - problem is of course, that Black Knights usually aren't within 6" from the CC. Second best is Grave Guards - seeing the amount of magic and Loadstone and all I would give the GG's great weapons as you have enough of anvils, you need some punch too. And magical S6 attacks adds some much needed versatility to your army - even Giants will hesitate to come close to them and you stand a good chance of munching through a Treeman. With a second CC you will in many cases have ASF on them too, and it really gives your opponent some tough choices in what to dispel - the Miasmas or wait for your other spells?

I can't understand why people give Banner of Hellfire to Skellies. Banner of the Dead Legion is so dangerous on a fear-causing unit, that would be my choice.

 

[thewrathchilde]

I really like this list. For a tournament its great; not sure how fun it is, it's a meat grinder which would be very difficult to give up VPs. A very frustrating list to play against I would think.

it is real similar to a list I originally played a few years ago that I updated for the new book adn the armies books that were released since I played it. At the time it earned me Best General awards in two US GW GTs and you are right, it is a fairly frustrating list to play against. In each of those tournaments I gave up an average of around 120 VPs per game with most of the games giving up less than that.....in the new version I can see it giving up a few more because of the Varghulf and the BKs though it should still be a grind army and very hard to score points from with the magic support to keep the units large.

I would definitely include the BSB on the flayed hauberk character. It would really add that one extra point of CR to autobreak an enemy. I'd drop a skeleton and zombie musician. I'd like to see the unit the zombie's fight that the musician's win the day. If you can come up with the math and a likely scenario please post.

The BSB is an include in the list- I just haven't updated the above list to reflect as that would change the relevance of some of the posted comments. The Musician was included in the ZOmbies because it allowed me to fill the full 2250 pts instead of being 4 pts short. Generally the musician will not be useful against most units of multi-attack troops or other full ranked CR based units. However, against 1 attack base troops that they outnumber and have a rank advantage against or more likely small skirmisher units without static combat resolution the Muscian could theoretically allow them to either win or tie a combat. Generalli I include a musician in almost all undead units just for the slight chance that one a bad round of combat from the opponent it might make a difference between another round and the unit breaking......slim, but possible.

A solid list, backed up by really strong magic. But you lack the always versitile Dire Wolves, I'd ditch the Zombies for 2x5. But we wont go into that discussion again (you know that a min-sized raised unit of diverting Zombies gives away more victory points than a min-sized unit of Wolves?) Oops, sorry

difference in play-styles; sure they give away 10 pts more than the wolves but can also be added to more easily to function as more than a speed-bump or redirect unit if I choose to. Additionally the zombies don't require me to field another bloodline power to feel that I am getting the greatest efficiency out of them. Typically if the game comes down to a difference in 10 pts as a result of using summoned zombies instead of dire wolves then the player has other issues anyway and is likely to be out of the running towards top scores.

I can't understand why people give Banner of Hellfire to Skellies. Banner of the Dead Legion is so dangerous on a fear-causing unit, that would be my choice.

Hellfire is there to give me another unit with magic attacks (and a unit with flaming attacks). Dead Legion is a great banner but the initial size of the units in the above type of build and the amount of magic to keep them large coupled with the LotD bloodlines to further increase the size of the skeletons should allow me to out-number and "auto-break" (minus the chance of double 1's) most units without needing Dead Legion. I think that banner is most suited to units that can't be increased above starting size that start around 20 models or less and will need it for the outnumber.

thanks for the feedback, hopefully next week I will get a chance to get in a play-test game and will post some results/BATREP.

WC