2500 point competitive

[Rockdacasbah]

Hey this is a list I'm bringing to a big local tournament with a lot of very strong lists. It is currently short 185pts. I'm lost on what to add for those points.

Vampire Lord (vamps) 501
-Lvl 4
-Ogre Blade
-Enchanted Shield
-Heavy Armor
-Talisman of Preservation
-Red Fury
-Quickblood

Necromancer (Death) 125
-Lvl 2
-Dispel Scroll

Necromancer (Vamps) 140
-Lvl 2
-Rod of Flaming Death (LOVE THIS THING)

5 x Dire Wolves 40

5 x Dire Wolves 40

20 x Zombies 60

30 x Zombies 95
-Standard

40 x Crypt Ghouls 410
-Ghast

Corpse Cart 105
-Balefire

29 x Grave Guard 349
-Full Command

Terrorgheist 225

Terrorgheist 225

 

[helemaalnicks]

I would take 2 crypt ghouls out of the list, that gives you 205, how about 5 hexwraiths, a champion and a spirit host?

You have no ethereals and no cavalry in the list, this fixes both without using up too many points.

 

[Seneschal]

Hello and welcome

-You need more GG and they need great weapons and also the Banner of the Barrows if you are facing strong lists. I personally no longer consider GG competitive in tough environments but if that's what you currently own, then work on using them. Are you allowed to proxy great weapons or no?
-I'd drop the cart and the necro levels for hexwraiths.
-You may issues with a list that runs an infantry lord with 2 TG's but with practice you can work around it.

 

[Anticitizen1]

Another idea would be to put another Necromancer with a level 2 upgrade, LOV and give him the Staff of Damnation. (bound spell cast on 4+ all undead get an extra attack) for only 140 points. Which would only leave you 45 more points to fill.

 

[heldantes]

I agree you need more GG. I'd say 35 minimum. I wouldn't 100% agree about needing great weapons though - the AS and parry save can be quite useful regarding combat resolution, while hopefully your Lord deals out the fury and a few killing blows get through too.

I also agree they're not that competitive in my experience, if playing against like...cheese lists. Need cheese to beat cheese.

Personally I would look at having a whole army approach. You've got fast moving TGs, but nothing to keep up with them (TG alongside a Black Knight bus for example). However they could work really well if you manage to hold up an enemy unit or monster with your block units, just bear in mind against hellcannons, dwarf and empire lists, and even high elf bolt throwers, they might not last long.

For that reason consider making your dire wolf units larger. I go for 7-10. 5 will die too quickly and i don't mean by drawing fire, but just from war machine crews the turn they charge if you're unlucky, thus not doing their job effectively.

Anyway the point is.. I don't even know anymore. Plan it through. The corpse cart for example works well as it goes at a similar pace as the infantry, where as in a cavalry list you wouldn't see one.

My final 2 cents which is unpopular is that Crypt Ghouls are a waste of points let us know how the tournament goes.

 

[Rockdacasbah]

I changed the list around quite a bit for the tournament here is what I ended up running.

Vampire Lord (vamps) 501
-Lvl 4
-Ogre Blade
-Enchanted Shield
-Heavy Armor
-Talisman of Preservation
-Red Fury
-Quickblood

Necromancer 140
Lvl 2
Rod of Flaming Death

5 x Dire Wolves 40
5 x Dire Wolves 40

20 x Zombies 60

36 x Zombies 113
-Standard

40 x Crypt Ghouls 410
-Ghast

Corpse Cart 106
-Balefire
-Spear

29 x Grave Guard 349
-Full Command

10 x Black Knights 290
-Full Command
-Lances
-Barding

Terrorgeist 225
Terrorgeist 225

I ended up going 2-0-1 and placing third. Ill give a brief synopsis of each game.

Game 1 against Ogres. This match came down to a climactic combat between his Gutstar with 3 characters and my GG/Lord unit and my Knights. I had already done a bit of weakening on the unit with Curse of Years and 2 screams earlier in the battle. I 5 dice cast Vanhels Dance and he tossed 6 at it, but he rolled terribly low and failed to dispel. I then went to to 4 dice cast Hellish Vigor and got it off with a miscast, the miscast knocked off a few grave guard and did 2 wounds to ogres. Both spells where the amped up versions. With the buffs up i was able to win combat, my Vamp lord killed his character with the Crown of Command and my Knights ran him down. One of his cannons blowing itself up turn 1 helped also.

Game 2 against WoC. This was the list with the Prince, 2 Chimera, Skullcrushers, Unkillable BSB, and Mass Chariots. I was able to manage a draw, I wont go into a ton of detail but I was able to push the Crushers to the board edge, and kill his Prince with screams. In the end he won by like 6 pts, it was kind of funny how close it was.

Game 3 was against Skaven. He dealt severe damage to my Grave Guard(Brass Orb/Doom Rocket) but was never able to finish them off. I utilized the Knights ability to charge through his units and got a side charge off on his Clan Rat unit with his BSB, and 2 casters. He claimed he didnt know I could do that, even thou I ran down all the abilities of all my things while i deployed them. With the benefit of his magic i was able to grind his army to nothing, and he was tabled by turn 6.

All in all I am very very happy with how this army performed, I need to keep painting it. I have 1 Terrorgeist, my GG Unit, and my Knights left. Im working on my vampire lord right now.

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

Nice job! List seems good to me. People will tell you to make your lord mounted and put him in the BK unit, but you don't have to always do the "stock" BK bus to be successful. Only thing I would change in this list is the 36-dude Zombie unit. 36 Zombies doesn't do much. You need more chaff anyways, so why not jam more Wolves instead?

 

[Rockdacasbah]

Honestly I already have over 100 zombies painted... and I have no desire to paint anymore wolves either. The 36 man unit, clogs up an enemy unit and by the time it sees combat is normally 50+.

 

[gilbo12345]

I'm pretty sure you can't charge Black Knights through enemy units, they get to move through terrain like ethereal, whereas Hexwraiths have a special ability which allows movement through enemy units.

 

[Seneschal]

Yeah, that's not legal at all.
And I advocate for the use of a VL in a black knight bus because they will struggle to do damage otherwise. A veteran player will see a bus with no character support as easy points and give it a lot of attention.

 

[heldantes]

It seems stupid that they can't March or charge through a unit yet can do so through terrain.

I know it doesn't say specifically "move through terrain AND units" but I would take it as meaning that.

 

[gilbo12345]

Yet when Hexwraiths have their own rule which specifically states they can, whilst also being ethereal, it kinda leaves that interpretation dead in the water.

 

[heldantes]

But the hex wraith special rule is purely to distinguish the fact that they cause damage when they pass through a unit. At least that's how I see it. Come on, ethereal! If it can pass through a wall, moving through a gyrocopter or whatever else is no different.

 

[gilbo12345]

But the hex wraith special rule is purely to distinguish the fact that they cause damage when they pass through a unit. At least that's how I see it. Come on, ethereal! If it can pass through a wall, moving through a gyrocopter or whatever else is no different.

"But"...?

Dude, its not about what you think is logical, its about what the rules state you can and cannot do. Please point to where the rulebook states that ethereal units can move through enemy units, if not then please stop trying to justify playing it that way. Some 15 year old who doesn't know better, may read your post and think you are making a valid point and then proceeds to play the game against the rules under the illusion that some guy on the internet thinks it is ok, therefore it is.

Many rules in Warhammer defy what most people would claim "common sense" this may be due to oversights in the design process or simply a matter of balance or simplicity.

Perhaps also consider this response from a previous discussion, (post #5)

"Ethereal says that models treat Difficult or Impassable terrain as open ground.

The BRB says that opposing models are kept 1" apart, and are halted at this distance unless they would be declaring a charge (voluntarily or otherwise), although nothing stops you from being as close as you want to friendly units.

Basically, enemies aren't terrain of any kind and the Ethereal rules don't contradict that in any way. So you definitely cannot move through enemy units. Friendlies can't normally be mvoed through either, and the Ethereal Movement rules don't contradict this, so friendlies cannot be moved through either.

Ethereal only creates an exception when it comes to terrain. Since models are not terrain there is no reason or rule to stop you from acting as if they were any troops in this respect."


https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Can-wraiths-go-through-units

 

[heldantes]

I like the terminal intensity of your reply, but if you've ever played in a tournament that has comped rules or you've ever created "house rules" with your friends, then the rules as written attitude is a bit hypocritical. Personally the way my friends and I play, I hope a 15 year old kid looks on these forums and questions the dogma of GW (yeah I'm being a bit over dramatic!) and creates their own little tweaks. Of course then you could say why play warhammer at all if you're not going to use the rules to the letter, but I'd point again to the many comped tournaments.

So in short, I agree the rules don't let ethereal move through units (save for hexwraiths) but that this is something my group of friends would "comp".

 

[gilbo12345]

I like the terminal intensity of your reply, but if you've ever played in a tournament that has comped rules or you've ever created "house rules" with your friends, then the rules as written attitude is a bit hypocritical. Personally the way my friends and I play, I hope a 15 year old kid looks on these forums and questions the dogma of GW (yeah I'm being a bit over dramatic!) and creates their own little tweaks. Of course then you could say why play warhammer at all if you're not going to use the rules to the letter, but I'd point again to the many comped tournaments.

So in short, I agree the rules don't let ethereal move through units (save for hexwraiths) but that this is something my group of friends would "comp".

Terminal intensity?... Pointing out where you are wrong, and unjustified isn't being intense, its called being right

The only tournaments I have been to (and have heard of) are those which play by the rules, so no.. not being hypocritical, I always play by the rules. However not sure what they have to do with this discussion, red herring much? If people want to change the rules around with their friends then go for it, that was not the discussion here, (hence red herring).

The original poster went to a tournament and used an illegal move which his / her opponent questioned. It has been revealed that such was indeed against the rules, if you agree with this then why argue?

 

[heldantes]

Man, let's chill out a little.

My main comment was "It seems stupid that they can't March or charge through a unit yet can do so through terrain" and then that "I know it's not the rule, but doesn't make sense".

I was never arguing the rule, but bringing forth a discussion about fluff and sense over generalised rules. You clearly want no discussion on that.

 

[gilbo12345]

Man, let's chill out a little.

My main comment was "It seems stupid that they can't March or charge through a unit yet can do so through terrain" and then that "I know it's not the rule, but doesn't make sense".

I was never arguing the rule, but bringing forth a discussion about fluff and sense over generalised rules. You clearly want no discussion on that.

I am chill, I haven't said anything that would infer otherwise; not calling you hypocritical or inferring "terminal intensity" etc...

The discussion wasn't initially about fluff etc, you are free to change it to that, (in a new thread if you want to make one, as to not derail this one), however what I and others were stating (and is the actual context of the discussion) was that it is an illegal move, more-so when you consider that this was done at a tournament.

If you agreed with this, (despite the use of "But") then, I ask again, why are you arguing?

 

[heldantes]

Haha dude, what is this? Surely these forums can allow fluid discussions. It's not like I've gone completely off topic, I put forward the suggestion it would be cool and in line with fluff to make that illegal move legal. The only argument is you are insistent to be "right"...except there's no argument, we both agree the rule is right. This has now become a personality clash and I will call our discussion to an end.

Good gaming and I hope we can have further discussions in the future!

 

[gilbo12345]

Haha dude, what is this? Surely these forums can allow fluid discussions. It's not like I've gone completely off topic, I put forward the suggestion it would be cool and in line with fluff to make that illegal move legal. The only argument is you are insistent to be "right"...except there's no argument, we both agree the rule is right. This has now become a personality clash and I will call our discussion to an end.

Good gaming and I hope we can have further discussions in the future!

All I see is an attempt to save face via shifting goal posts after being demonstrated to be wrong and after attempts to complain about the rules on the basis of fluff, then attempts of insults, etc. Perhaps don't call people hypocrites before you reason to do so, it doesn't make a good first impression

However the crux of the issue is not about whether people can make their own house-rules (which I already conceded people are free to do), it is however about the OP who pretty much forced the opponent to accept his / her wrong interpretation of the rules in a tournament. So again friends who make their own house-rules has no application here, since it wasn't about a group of friends making their own rules, it was about a person at a tournament and enforcing his / her wrong interpretation despite the opponent raising questions about it; hence shifting the goal posts.

Do you think that making your own house-rules on the fly is allowable in a tournament. (rhetorical question since the answer is obvious). Honestly, not sure why this has engulfed the thread. The person was doing an illegal move, stop arguing about it.

Good gaming to you also