2500 Vampire count

[Sodanjumala]

Okay, I'm a new here in the forum but I'm not really like the guy who introduces him self in separate topic. So I jump right into the business.

Well I had the book for 1-2 years now and even snatched couple of guys (Vampire Lady, Konrad, Cheap Dire Wolves and even 15 Grave guards for 5€) but I haven't really started an FB army before. But lately the allure of undead has been really strong and noticing that you don't need 300+ models for an army, I thought about again and decided to go for it. So to the list:

Vampire Lord: 620
- Armour of Destiny, Enchanted Shield and Ogre Blade
- Lv 1 Wizard with Lore of Vampires
- Red Fury, Dread Knight
- Zombie Dragon

Vampire: 184
- Fencer Blades, Dragonhelmet and Heavy Armor
- Lv 1 Wizard with Lore of Vampire
- Quickblood

Necromancer: 130
- Lv 2 Wizard with Lore of Vampire
- Book of Arkhan and Ironcurse Icon

Necromancer: 105
- Lv 1 Wizard with Lore of Vampire
- Staff of Damnation

Skeleton Warriors: 180
- 30 Skeletons
- Full Command (Musician, Champion, Standard Bearer)

Skeleton Warriors: 230
- 40 Skeletons
- Full Command

Crypt Ghouls: 210
- 20 Ghouls
- Crypt Ghast

Dire Wolves: 40
- 5 Wolfs

Dire Wolves: 40
- 5 Wolfs

Grave Guard: 320
- 20 Guards
- Full Command
- Great Weapons
- Bonner of Barrows

Black Knight: 305
- 10 Knights
- Full Command
- Lances
- Barding
- Banner of Swiftness

Spirit Host: 135
- 3 Spirits


Total: 2499

40 Skeleton formation is in Horde -formation and is "protecting" Necromancer with Ironcurse. Second Necromancer goes with 30 Skeleton formation that is in deep formation. Vampire goes in Grave Guard formation supported by Knights. Lord (and his pet Dragon) ruins somebodies day. Spirit Host and Wolves act as annoyance (other being real pain in the ##### for monsters).

I'm not expecting this to be excellent list but I'm not seeking for tournament winning set in the first place. And most of the stuff isn't bought yet so I'm very open for suggestions (no zombies however!). Going to start with Battalion and maybe get the The Black Host as it's very affordable.

And before somebody says "Vampires isn't for beginners" I have to say that I'm 50% evil and my dices even more evil so I should be more then good enough!

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

1) Your Vampire Lord has two magic armours, which is illegal (armour of destiny and enchanted shield). You can only have one per category. Just give him talisman of preservation instead.

2) Your hero vampire really isn't a very efficient use of points. 4 attacks at S5 isn't going to kill much of anything, and 2W T4 4+ isn't going to last very long, WS10 or not.

3) Your highest level wizard is only level 2, which means you're lacking in magic defense. Because of the way casting works you're strongly incentivized to have a level 4 wizard.

4) 30 skeleton warriors is way too small, even if you're jamming it full of vampires. You'll want minimum 40 models. The 20 ghouls is also way too small, in my opinion. They have no save and really aren't all that fast, so they'll take loads of wounds and crumble real quick. Undead don't do MMU very well.

Also the only two Vampire units capable of running in horde are ghouls and GG, and you need 35+ to do that effectively. Skeletons should only ever be run 5-wide unless you're running something like Lore of Shadow. And even then...it's risky. I2 WS2 just bleeds too much CR.

5) Black Knights really have no purpose beyond delivering vampires into combat quickly and efficiently. They don't have much punch on their own, and can't hold out in sustained combat. The grave guard are also way too small. Either drop the black knights to flesh out the GG unit, or drop the GG to buy something else.

6) Spirit hosts are chaff. They're better off in three units of 1 than 1 unit of 3.

 

[Sodanjumala]

And I completely forgot that 1 x Magic Item per type. Silly Me.

I think most things can be fixed by dropping the Zombie dragon from the list and making Vampire Lord spellcaster focused. Hero Vamp can be then replaced by more efficient Wight King. Propably it takes a while to rewrite most stuff.

And as a quetions if Skeletons are not used in Horde is the unit size 35-40 good in 5x line up or should I go ridiculous?

 

[Alastor]

Ok, so here's a few things:

1) Drop Dreadknight from your VL, especially if you're dropping the Zombie Dragon too. Your VL needs to be in combat with rank and file where he can generate CR. I would keep him as a blender, dropping the dragon and Dreadknight gives you enough points to make him a fully tooled up blender at level 4, add Quickblood and/or beguile for a powerful, very tough combat beast. Drop in a talisman of preservation and downgrade to heavy armour. This may be the "standard" build, but there's a reason it's so popular.

2) Drop the ghouls, up the skeletons to a minimum of 40. 20 ghouls will do absolutely nothing.

3) Your Black Knights are sort of doing nothing. They move faster than everything else except the wolves and you have no mounted lords or heroes to join them and make them a powerful punch, drop them and up your grave guard. Again a minimum if 40 is a food guide.

4) Spirit Hosts work best as individual bases, but larger units do have limited use.

 

[Sodanjumala]

Okay round 2! Fight!

Vampire Lord: 499
- Lv 4 Wizard with Lore of Vampire
- Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation and Enchanted Shield
- Heavy Armor
- Quickblood and Red Fury

Wight King: 134
- Sword of Might, Potion of Strenght and Luckstone
- Shield

Necromancer: 130
- Lv 2 Wizard with Lore of Vampire
- Book of Arkhan and Ironcurse Icon

Necromancer: 125
- Lv 2 Wizard with Lore of Vampire
- Power Stone


Crypt Ghouls: 310
- 30 Ghouls
- Crypt Ghast

Skeleton Warriors: 245
- 40 Skeletons
- Full Command
- Banner of Swiftness

Skeleton Warriors: 230
- 40 Skeletons
- Full Command

Dire Wolves: 40
- 5 Wolfs

Dire Wolves: 40
- 5 Wolfs

Grave Guards: 460
- 30 Guards
- Full Command
- Great Weapons
- Banner of Barrows

Hexwraiths: 160
- 5 Hexwraiths
- Hellwraith

Spirit Host: 45

Spirit Host: 45

Spirit Host: 45

Total: 2948

And I really thought I had to remove a lot of stuff but I managed to save some. And I managed to squeeze in some Hexwraiths that are actually quite useful.

 

[Alastor]

Sorry, I meant Quickblood as well as Red Fury. Without Red Fury your blender lacks any real blending capability.

I still think your grave guard are a little small. I'd go 35 as a bare minimum, preferably 40+.

Also, I may be miscalculating but you are spending a couple hundred points more on core than the 25% tax. This is rarely a good idea, our core is crap, ghouls especially as you'll expect them to actually do something. I'd drop the ghouls, make sure you boost your other units to reach the 750 points on core, then use the remainder to boost your GG and buy Red Fury.

 

[Sodanjumala]

Okay made some changes but I have to disagree for Core choices. Yes our Core is garbage but useful garbage and Ghouls aren't that bad. Ghouls can actually bite and lack of infantry could be fatal in some cases. We need numbers because it would be awful if opponent outnumbers in units.

Oh and unit size of 30 for Grave guard does work.

 

[Alastor]

Ok mate, you asked for help with your list and I have. If you disagree with any of my tips then crack on any way you see fit, but I don't appreciate comments like "oh and Grave Guard do work in a unit if 30."

In my experience if you start with 30, you're hitting with what? 22-25 on a good day against a decent opponent who recognises your threat. I prefer smashing into combat with 32-35 as I find this is where the balance tips in our favour against most armies.

In regards to ghouls, they are outperformed by everything else in our core, but if you like them, keep them.

If I have misread your tone, I apologise.

 

[Sodanjumala]

Well I maybe should have said that "I think Grave Guard still functions good enough in unit size 30" rather then in snobby brat tone. My apologies. Oh and I still understand why Grave guard should be taken in larger units however I'm not big fan of larger elite units as it's then easier for opponent to avoid the unit.

However I still wonder as my impression about Ghouls is that they are best choice for Core in offensive output or have I missed something or do you regard Ghouls poorer choice because they are more expensive to be used as core unit?

 

[Alastor]

My opinion on ghouls can be broken down into three statements:

1) Ghouls only look good compared to our other Core.

2) Ghouls carry the illusion of strength, not strength itself.

3) Ghouls eat points that could spent on cheaper units, more effective units or just more drops.

Essentially, although poisoned attacks are great, I would prefer more dire wolves, zombie bunkers or skeleton busses. None of our core units can amount to anything more than a tar pit or redirectors, spending that many points just to get poisoned attacks seems odd.

 

[estwheadn]

So I think there's a lot of tough choices when you are building a vc list and you are trying not to make them. You have to go black knights or graveguard. I see that you've made the choice for graveguard which is good. The other choice you have to make is in the core. YOu have to go either zombies and ghouls. Or just skellies. There isn't room for skellies and ghouls in the same 600-750pt core block. I would drop the ghouls completely. Not because I don't think they are awesome (I run a unit of ~40 in 2400pts), but because they take up too many points when used along side skeletons. That leaves you with another 195pts. That's enough to add a couple more units of dogs and a big unit of zombies!
I know you said you don't want zombies but like, unless it's for fluff purposes you should consider it. They're so bad that they are powerful. Enemies try to avoid them because they don't want to get stuck for 6 turns fighting a 120point unit. They basically take units out of the game without killing them. Besides with all those lore of vampires casters you can double that unit's size in 1 or 2 turns. Speaking of which if you are going to be running 2 big skeleton blocks in your list you should definitely give one of your necros master of the dead. I'd also swap out the power stone for a dispel scroll.
Another thing is that I don't like wight kings on foot. He's supposed to be tough and with just a 4+ armor save he's not that tough. I think you were better off with a baby vampire. To make them effective just give them red fury. Also if you do take the wight king on foot I would go for additional hand weapon because a) model looks sick and b) try and get the most out of killing blow in challenges. I don't think your necros need to be level 2 either. Drop the lvl 2 upgrades and spend those 70 points on making your wight king a vampire. IMHO 3x lvl1 > 2x lvl2 when you already have a level 4 in the army.

Last thing is I feel like you need to work a terrorgheist or mortis engine in here somewhere. Then you can give the skellies spears so they hit harder while not sacrificing defense. With double mortis engine you could definitely get away with running those spear skellies in horde formation.

 

[Sodanjumala]

Okay let's go like this. If I go with zombies and skellies (I see the reason behind that) wouldn't the amount of zombies (as in per guy) go rather ridiculous as the game goes on so how many zombies I should have in excess so I wouldn't run out of guys?

 

[MorgretBonesmasher]

I think you are ok with 150-175 zombies to start with, I know it seems a lot but you'll raise a lot and add a lot with Invocation of Nehek. I have currently 75 zombies, so i need about 75-100 more. For now I'm getting used to skellies which I have 80 of them, want 20 more, with spears and handweapon shield.

A lvl 4 master necro with Master of the Dead is a good one to have. I use that as my lvl 4 caster. My blender lord without magic upgrades since my lvl 4 does the work. I think the Book of Ashur is a good addition with my limited experience as VC player.

 

[Sodanjumala]

Okay, based on this threads answers I find it pretty over the top so I most likely make another thread to talk these thing over. Of course in the other section.