2500pts Manny Lists

[Kinne]

Hey all, recently joined member here. I had a VC army many years ago, and Mannfred was by far my favorite character (it doesn't hurt that he's a magic phase powerhouse). So now I'm back in the VC game (my Dwarfs got a little stale after ten years) and I'm ramping up for a tourney in a few weeks. I have two lists I'm going back and forth on. The main difference is a bigger block of Vargheists and a Banshee versus having a unit of Great Guard. Here're the two I'm debating between:

Characters
Count Mannfred - Hellsteed
Necromancer - Lvl 2, Master of the Dead, Book of Arkhan

Core
40 x Skellies - Spears, Banner, Musician
40 x Skellies - Spears, Banner, Musician
20 x Zombies
5 x Dire Wolves - Doom Wolf
5 x Dire Wolves - Doom Wolf
5 x Dire Wolves - Doom Wolf

Special
23 x Grave Guard - Great Weapons, Full Command, Banner of the Barrows
2 x Fell Bats
2 x Fell Bats
4 x Vargheists
Corpse Cart - Unholy Lodestone

Rare
2 x Terrorgheists

The idea is that the Necro is buried with the zombies in the backfield near the cart, skellies and GG, increasing the skeleton unit size and using the Book to make up for the fact that the general will likely be too far away. Manny is on the flank with the rest of the army, adding five wounds to the wolves and bats per magic phase and using Doom and Darkness to set up the Terrorgheists for serious havoc. The Hellsteed gives him the flexibility to jump from unit to unit, or hide in the skeletons against a seriously shooty army (also to note this gives him a great opportunity for firing Purple Sun down low Initiative battle lines). The skeletons can tarpit multiple units each, and the mobile portion can eat pretty much all fast cav and flankers. The bats and wolves can take out artillery, march block, block charging lanes, etc. They're incredibly cheap, maneuverable throw away units if need be.

The second list drops the doom wolves and grave guard to add more vargheists, some hexwraiths and a banshee.

Characters
Count Mannfred - Hellsteed
Necromancer - Lvl 2, Master of the Dead, Rod of Flaming Death
Tomb Banshee

Core
40 x Skeletons - Spears, Banner, Musician
40 x Skeletons - Spears, Banner, Musician
20 x Zombies
5 x Dire Wolves
5 x Dire Wolves
5 x Dire Wolves

Special
6 x Vargheists
Corpse Cart - Unholy Lodestone
2 x Fell Bats
2 x Fell Bats
5 x Hexwraiths

Rare
2 x Terrorgheists

General strategy is the same. The hexwraiths are there to help against high Ld, heavily armored opponents (i.e. Chaos Knights/Warriors) and generally cause havoc. The Tomb Banshee perfectly fit the 95 point gap I had, though I wouldn't be opposed to swapping in more bats, bat swarms, etc.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Banat]

Prefer the second list definitely. 23 Grave Guard is not really enough to be effective in most situations. Ideally 40 although you can get away with smaller numbers in smaller games. 23 might just make themselves useful in a 1500pt match but not a 2.5k.

Would recommend swapping out one of your Tbats for a Mortis Engine (especially forbiddon tome if you can afford it). Your level 2 Necro will be rolling like a Level 4, it buffs your main infantry line with a 6+ ward save meaning you still effectively get your parry save AND get the benefit of spears, AND you still get a banshee scream AND it will deal latent damage out to any nearby enemy units. Charge it deep into the enemy lines before it dies (turn 4 onwards) and watch it clear the board as it explodes.

A lot of people haven't found corpse carts particularly fantastic, as they're super slow and struggle to keep up with the battle lines (cannot march) and Lodestone is definitely the less effective of the two upgrades. Debuffing enemy wizards is cool IF you can get it in range. If you decide to keep it I recommend taking Book of Arkhan to try and get Vanhels off on it regularly.

Run your spear skellies deep rather than wide (the horde bonus is appealing, but less so when your ranks start getting wittled down meaning less and less bonuses to combat resolution).

Looks like a solid list. Remember Mannfred doesn't have a ward save so get him into combat as soon as possible to protect him against magic missiles and direct damage. He's great for hunting down small light armoured units, chaff, warmachines etc. With support from the Vargs, the Tbat, the Fellbats and the Hex Wraiths you've got some really sweet damage potential and spreading the threat out among multiple units, the enemey won't know what to take out first.

 

[Kinne]

Thanks for the input! The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning away from Grave Guard. You're right - they do need to be taken in a large block to be effective. Though I may pick up some GG models because once Nagash hits home, summoning units of GG with the Wight Standard is just hilarious.

Anyway, I'm really hesitant on the Mortis Engine. There are a LOT of cannons at my local tourney scene, many Dwarfen cannons with Runes of Burning, so the Regen wouldn't protect it. And even though it would be a weaker strength, I don't want it exploding in the middle of my battle line.

My revised list is looking more like this:

Characters
Count Mannfred - Hellsteed
Master Necromancer - Lvl 3, Master of the Dead, Rod of Flaming Death, Black Periapt
Tomb Banshee

Core
40 x Skeletons - Spears, Banner, Musician
40 x Skeletons - Spears, Banner, Musician
20 x Zombies
5 x Dire Wolves
5 x Dire Wolves
5 x Dire Wolves

Special
3 x Vargheists
3 x Vargheists
2 x Fell Bats
2 x Fell Bats
5 x Hexwraiths

Rare
2 x Terrorgheists

I'm aware that the Lord choices exceed the normal limit, but my local club has allowed the latest GW FAQ that uses the End Times list building guidelines, so 50% it is! Unfortunately the Undead Legions are not allowed this time around, so no Nagash for me!

Strategy is the same. I dropped the Cart to bump up the Necro. This gives him one additional spell for utility, increases his Invocation results by one and allows him to take the Black Periapt and fuel Mr. Manny. Oh, and I broke the Vargheists into two units. They would lose an attack in two ranks without gaining a benefit, so I was thinking two Vampiric units flying around is better than one.

I'm also strongly considering a list which would drop one Terrorgheist and the Necro for a Vampire Lord on Coven Throne with Aura, Fear Incarnate, Supernatural Horror (lots of Ogre players, too) and the Black Periapt. Building off of Manny's ability to throw Doom and Darkness around, I thought that might be hilarious combination.