40k beginner army

[Sweeney Todd]

You do realise you don't have to win right?
I find losing to be just as entertaining when gaming in 40k as winning. You actually learn alot from losing as well.

That's a bit of a dangerous generalization IMO. I know what you mean(that you learn much more from losing than winning), but other people may take you 100% literally.

It isn't fun when one person takes a WAAC army against a friendly fluffy bunny list. When the outcome is decided before any dice are even rolled, the game is a pointless waste of time IMO. Nobody really learns anything from this kind of game.

 

[Troll]

I have found that a WAAC list that is fluffy as well can be just as easy to build.

If you think about it, build your list to handle all threats, but keep in a theme, then you should do well.

My Tyranids have a strong poison theme, where all the little guys have toxin sacs. Why, because against t3 armies, reroll to wound. t4+ armies, i still wound on 4's. Its also fun to watch your opponent cry when they have to remove mephastan or wraithlords from the table because of poison.

My Guard, very thematic. Traitor Guard. IG list build, but set up like chaos. All mechanized, with veterans for troops, and as much plasma and melta I can throw in there. Why? Nobs and helmets cry when they get hit by ap2 or 1. The troops suffer a lot from a massive amount of heavy bolters mounted on Chimeras/Leman Russ/Banewolfs (the two flamers on those). What I lack in range, I make up for in effectiveness in short range. Solid list, very fluffy, and I don't use orders... There is my draw back, and its a matter of choice (and just down right forgetting about them)!

Chaos, I always play pure cult. Be it Nurgle, Tzeentch, Khorne, or Slanesh. I can build a solid list out of all the cults, but I don't because its not fluffy! Do they still win? Yes. They do have their weaknesses, but you learn how to deal with them.

All of these make a solid list and a solid player after you learn how to play with the army accordingly.

I am still learning with my VC, just because I don't know the WHFB armies all that well, so as I play the different armies, I figure out how to prep for them in my standard lists. I still keep a very heavy magic and anti magic build, just because that is the majority, and I keep it in tune with the classic Von Carstien build.

You have to learn to crawl before you can learn to run...

 

[Danceman]

By the way: has anyone had games with the new codex yet? I'd be curious to hear how the army works now.

I am likely to have a bunch of games on friday next week. I aim to have atleast 4-5 games. Only 1k games(the standard at my club). I know most people play 1500-1750 games but just like the 1k more. In the club we've bought every army together(the armies we didn't already collect individually) so I should be able to get a wide range of armies to face.

Any unit in particular you're interested in?

 

[Dogmar]

That's great news Danceman!

Are you changing your list from game to game in order to try almost everything? I ask because I'm assuming that you have a wide range of models as a veteran.
If so I'm interested what differences in playstyle the army offers and which combinations (be it units or weapons) work well together apart from the standard "dark-lance-kicks-butt" thing.

I am especially curious about the cabalite warriors because many guys on the interwebs (I googled "dark eldar forum") think they're rubbish compared to wyches and advise to build wych-cult lists for competetive play. It's just that I think cabalite warriors are cool and I definitely want them in my army if I decide for DE in (or is it "at"?) the end.
Also I have no idea about the unit which have no models at the moment - so wracks and grotesques. While I'm at it I'd like to know whats so special about harlequins? Why would I ever take them over 3+AS S5/6?! killer incubi (which strike in initiative order? and ignore armor saves!).

Basically that means I'm interested in almost everything, I'm just a very curious person I guess .

@Troll: great advice there, I like that fluffy can also mean competetive. Being fluffy is generally more important for me than competetive because I never liked the WAAC guys at the local store, so I try to play friendly games with more friendly people. Still, good to hear that it's possible if required.

 

[Danceman]

Then you will be pleased. My initial army will be a Kabalite army(warriors, trueborn, incubi, ravagers and possible also the mandrakes). Then also the beastmater unit and haemonculi units interest me greatly(just imagine the many conversion options!).

I do not have a lot minis left, a significant part of my army got lost when I moved(many moves to many places), possibly stolen. Still I have a good sized kabality army and units mentioned above. The slaughter will be great!

As for forums I recommend;
40kOnline(originally Eldaronline)
Librarium Online

 

[Sweeney Todd]

While I'm at it I'd like to know whats so special about harlequins? Why would I ever take them over 3+AS S5/6?! killer incubi (which strike in initiative order? and ignore armor saves!).

Why take Harlequins? If you think Incubi have high Initiative, wait till you see the Harlequins. Plus, more attacks than an Incubi, Fleet of Foot, Rending, and Furious Charge. I'm not sure if Harlequins can benefit from Power through Pain, but they are less reliant on it than other units because they don't need PoP to give them Furious Charge, they already have it as part of their base stats. Rending makes any to wound rolls of 6 count as an automatic wound(regardless of opponent's T value) that ignores armor saves. This allows them to engage virtually any enemy type save Walkers thanks to their high amount of attacks and this special rule.

Oh, they also have Hit&Run, which allows them to disengage from combat, assuming your target actually survives a round of combat from Harlies. Usually you would disengage in the enemy turn's combat phase, so that when your turn comes immediately after you may move and charge again. Plus, as I have mentioned before they are unshootable at medium-long range.

PS: I included Harlies having Rending in the comparison as I remember that the new Incubi are exactly the same points cost as Harlies with the Rending upgrade. Also, do Incubi benefit from Combat Drugs? If not, I don't see how you can even get them to S6.

 

[Bishop]

Must be referring to the Incubi "champion" which can be upgraded to S6.

Also, note that Incubi have Fleet as well now...my jaw dropped when I saw this. :devil2: The only real strike against previous ed Incubi was their "slowness".

I play CWE as well... and have over 40 Harlequins (played Harlequin CJ lists in 2nd). And tbh,I rarely use them in my Eldar lists. I simply don't think that the cost difference is justified over cheaper options in the CWE list.

I suspect that the same thing might apply to DE... though, I have less options (simply cuz I have less models)...so they might make an appearance in a DE list...time will tell.

 

[Dogmar]

Thanks for the links. They're very helpful. I'm curious to see how your DE fare. Good luck for that.

On the harlequins: They have some interesting rules, but I don't find rending to be that good. The Incubi have power weapons iirc, so all their attacks ignore armour saves, not just the 6s. I don't know if the Incubi have combat drugs. To be honest I just wasn't sure if they were S3 or S4 basic, so I used the slash. Maybe the champion is 1S higher than the regular guys, that would make sense.

I'll skim the forums, but I'll leave my decision until I playtested a little.

Cheers,

Dogmar

 

[Danceman]

Harlequins with Harlequin's kiss(rending) so actually cost the same as an Incubus. As for S3/4 they are S4 on the charge as they have the Furious Charge special rule. Even so I'd go with Hekatrix Bloodbrides over Harlequins. Much cheaper with virtually the same results. If you want the harlequins for rending, then the Incubi is so much better. Consistantly stronger and PWeapons are standard.

Harlequins have a coolness factor but if you want to max out effeciency then I'd with with Incubi or Bloodbrides(or even Wyches as these do not eat up precious elite slots).

Cheers, D.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Thanks for the links. They're very helpful. I'm curious to see how your DE fare. Good luck for that.

On the harlequins: They have some interesting rules, but I don't find rending to be that good. The Incubi have power weapons iirc, so all their attacks ignore armour saves, not just the 6s. I don't know if the Incubi have combat drugs. To be honest I just wasn't sure if they were S3 or S4 basic, so I used the slash. Maybe the champion is 1S higher than the regular guys, that would make sense.

I'll skim the forums, but I'll leave my decision until I playtested a little.

Cheers,

Dogmar

You misunderstand the utility of Rending. Rending will allow you to deal an automatic wound on a 6 tha ignore armor save, regardless of your target's Toughness. So a Toughness 8 Wraithlord that would be completely immune to a S4 Incubi's attacks can be taken down quite easily by a group of Harlies. Also, Rending gives an extra d3 of armor penetration on a to-penetrate roll of 6, giving Harlies some ability to deal with vehicles as well. The Harlequins also have more attacks than the Incubi, making them better at dealing with, for example, a full 30 man mob of Ork Boyz.

That aside, if Incubi gain Fleet and have Combat Drugs then those are huge mitigating factors. I too would go with Incubi if I were starting DE. Harlequins have greater synergy with CWE due to the presence of the psychic power Doom, which essentially allows you to re-roll to rend.

@Bishop: The extra points cost of Harlies over Scorpions and Banshees is entirely worth it IMO. They perform the roles of both aspects and can do it nearly as well if not better than both of them. That aside, they don't fit in some CWE lists due to their lack of a dedicated transport option, if you play a fully mechanized force you probably won't want to take them. My Footdar packs a full 10 man squad of them, all with Rending.

 

[Bishop]

I generally play a mixed Eldar list a la Biel-Tan. I use my Scorpions primarily in a counter-assault role. The Banshees are part of the Mechanized wing. I find that I can't fit the Harlequins well into either role, in my list, as I'd have to take smaller units and/or cut out additional items to fit them into my already very tuned list, found here

Yes, Harlequins due have their place... I just usually can't find the room to fit them into my lists, due to increased point costs over other options.

My list is now posted here on this forum (I usually just refer to my post on Warseer, but I'm on this site more then any other [except maybe Google :tongue: ] ... so I should post it here somewhere.)

 

[Dogmar]

Okay, so I played a few Assault on Black Reach games at the local store yesterday and I really like the mechanics of 40k. I've found it quite easy to learn and generally a bit faster and more aggressive than Fantasy.

I've also watched a few other 40k games that afternoon, as it seems that noone plays WHFB any more - how sad .
Anyway, there was:
1.doubles with DE+Necrons vs. SM +IG ... the result was that the Necrons got completely annihilated by turn two, because of some nasty special character and a few good rounds of shooting. The DE player then had no chance to win and got shot to pieces in the following turn. A generally very bad result after that the SM player told me that DE are a bad army that gets shot to pieces too easily as the transports are open, which is a fluffy but rules-wise bad thing, and that their vehicles are generally too fragile. He added that they're brilliant in CC but as soon as a unit is gone and they stand alone in the open they're pretty much dead. Shooting-wise he said that DE are very bad and that CWE are better at it, but still not the best army.
2.Tau vs. Eldar - "conquer and hold" mission (or whatever it's called).
Tau devastated the Eldar, because superior movement on the Tau side and the horrendous firepower of the fire warriors made short work of the spacy elves. That again made me doubt the usefulness of Eldar and got me into Tau again which seemed, although they have almost no CC power, very versatile and strong.
3. DE vs. Daemons
Annihilation mission. Minor victory for the DE who finally managed to take out the whole Daemon army. Made me somehow confident that they're not as bad as that strange SM player suggested. Still a Keeper of Secrets cut down about 25% of the DE force alone with a few lucky rolls (Archon + incubi + wrack squad) until the wyches came in and finally managed to bring it down with a lot of casualties. Overall a good game on both sides. Seems that DE are indeed strong if used right. The DE player told me that the shooting isn't that bad but it is a must to combine it with CC powers because of the low fire rate of the DE weaponry. Conclusion: Use ranged weapons (which are reliable but do not fire that often?!) to thin out the enemy units or to bring down tanks. He also mentioned that the jetbike's fly-over attack is pure gold. As it's only S4 I doubt that though - any input on that?

It's still a close race between DE,Tau and CWE for me, but for now the DE are slightly ahead the others.

I would appreciate your opinions on the matches and the topic in general

Cheers guys,

Dogmar

 

[Danceman]

That SM player just wanted to brag. If that DE army would be able to take on 2 armies at once I would have been amazed, indeed, that would mean one hell of a power creep as well as no army should be able to pull something like that off. He also pointed out the obvious when he said DE units are easily hurt once in the open but this is nothing new for DE players. Since we tend to make use of cover and speed this would have been much much harder, if not impossible, when you're faced with 2 armies at once, both at the same size as your own. As for worse shooting... I don't think that SM player quite grasps the massive difference between 4+ poisoned shooting VS S3 shooting. I am not saying it OMGWTFAWESOME but it is definitely better(the splinter cannon gaining a 36" range is nice!).

As for the Reavers and fly-by. It is D3 attacks and you have an upgrade of which makes the reaver hit with D6 S6. No AP but in most cases will wound on 2s. Since there are no attacks back at all and with a move of 36" you probably can find a safe-spot for them to land. The pinning upgrade does seem like something you shouldn't overlook as they're half the price of the Cluster Caltrops(the high strength option) and thus keep the cost down. My initial test at 1k games will be six of these with 2 grav-talons(pinning). If used against a key unit you not only will it cause some damage but could completely stop the unit from firing. D3 hits per model is nice as well as you have 2D3 chaces of causing a pinning-check or if you face big nasties with the Cluster Caltrops you've got 2D6 S6 hits on two models(units like ork nobs or tyranid warriors come to mind).

If all goes as planned I will have real-game experience to back up my claims on friday!

 

[Dogmar]

If I'm not completely mistaken the jetbikes also have / can get heat lances which makes them pretty awesome tank killers. Or are the options mutually exclusive? that would be sad.
As for the overall firepower and the effectiveness of the DE, especially when shooting heavy, would you say the SM guy is right? I mean he and his mate stomped two entire armies in 3 turns, which is nothing to laugh at. I've always looked at the Eldar races as shooting specialist, still behind Tau though. So is that true? Also how can you prevent your units from bein annihilated once they defeated a unit in CC and are now stuck in the open?! My idea was to put so much pressure on him, that he has to focus on other things rather than to kill your precious wyches (that now have a pain token). I have no clue how to accomplish such a thing effectively though.

 

[Danceman]

The point I was making was more on DE and their style of play. It is very hard to effective use cover when facing two armies. Second issue would be Necrons and how different they are as an army. Fast-moving and fragile DE teaming up with slow and ponderous Necrons. Combing the SMs flexibility with IG forces complement each other much better. It might sound as if I am making excuses here but I think these are valid points. The points are that DE is liability to the Necrons and Necrons are a liability for DE. One army can, least in theory, "take it", the other needs deciveness and speed.

So I am not laughing it off I am just saying that this particular game should not be used to judge either army in terms of effectiveness.

Also how can you prevent your units from bein annihilated once they defeated a unit in CC and are now stuck in the open?! My idea was to put so much pressure on him, that he has to focus on other things rather than to kill your precious wyches (that now have a pain token). I have no clue how to accomplish such a thing effectively though.

Have more things happending around him. Arriving piece by piece is a death sentence for most DE units. We spoke briefly on Reavers, having these zoom in and pin a unit down then use a warrior squad or trueborn to put pressure on another. However, you will NOT commit to everywhere at once because then you're starting to play into the hands of the opponent. This is where using cover and speed is key. The objective is to give the same enemy units several targets and try to make each choice a bad choice. Like "I shoot them, he will assault me, if I assault that squad, I will get shot and possible assault by this and that" and so on. Don't give your opponent a fair fight.
Second thing to consider is where and when. Is it possible to assault a unit and with a consolidation move have a large chance of reaching cover? Ideally the trademark speed and use of cover, along with redundancy and placement, should not have put you in this situation in the first place. Granted, sometimes it is unavoidable but it is then you should try and make your opponent second-guess his or hers decisions. We do have enough speed to make this happend!

However, DE are called the most unforgiving army for a reason.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

IMO the Space Marine guy sounds sanctimonious. Don't take his words to heart. His breed are too used to their 3+ saves and AV14, non-open topped transports. They cannot conceive these being taken away from them, and thus when they see the DE codex they immediately dismiss it as 'weak, 'underpowered' and so on. Consequently, when they play against DE they think 'easy win' and when you spank them with DE, they then cry 'cheese' and basically whine about your codex being broken.

I may be overgeneralizing, but that's the image in my head when i see Space Marine players talking smack about DE. In closing I'll leave you with this anecdote(paraphrased slightly):



Mongol chief: CONAN! What is best in life?

Conan: To crush Space Marine players, drive them before you and hear the lamentation of their Apothecaries

 

[waaanial00]

Space Marine players, and I am one of them, generally look down on open topped light vehicles because their tactics do not and can not work with them. For Marines its all about hiding in Rhinos, accelerating into the danger zone to deliver some Bolter fire and then getting back into their Rhinos to redeploy.

Dark Eldar shouldnt be mindlessly committing like that! They should be moving with purpose and striking where it will cause the most amount of pain.

Still the Marine player is kind of right, the vehicles are fragile. Doesnt mean they are doomed because of the way in which vehicle damage is worked out in 40K, however it does mean that they are prone to being damaged severely. However being open topped means that you can drive damn quick up to the enemy, jump out and then into combat. Just like an Ork I might add. Vehicles may be easy to damage but it matters little when they have got you to where you need to be.

As Danceman has said though, and as others have suggested, DE are massively difficult to get to grips with. Early you suggested you were up for the challenge, I wouldnt worry too much at this stage about seeing DE getting thumped. You will see a lot of that because they are the new shiny things and lots of people will be flocking to them because their rules seem really broken. Trouble is that in order to get the most out of them you have to be very tactical and I doubt most of the 40K community are up to the challenge of making DE work.

 

[Dogmar]

It will take me some time to build up my first 40k force and to get a grasp over the rules anyway, so I hope the hype is gone then. DE definitely sound like fun, because they remind me so much of my loved woodies - although they're admittedly more evil. And while the woodie playstyle changed in Fantasy pretty heavily, it is still good old guerilla in 40k. Also I'm glad they're quite devastating in the right hands and are not inferior to any army out there right away. Additionaly I'd consider myself a good tactician in general, although I don't intend to bragg with it - I'm not THAT good . Still, as soon as I get to know the new game system better I think I can win with DE.

Still I'm not completely sold on them. Does anyone maybe have a Tau force and can contribute some personal experience and/or anecdotes? I'd gladly appreciate that, as they don't look that strong on paper, but are said to be very powerful in the right hands.

I think I can dismiss CWE, they're cool and all, but from the two Eldar races I think the DE offer more opportunities.

 

[nichorn]

I agree with you guys about eldar the new de models are really cool and at some point because its begging to be done i'll convert some mandrakes to vampires, i don't think you shouldn't count out ig though i have 4000 points worth and wheather used as a gun line or a more fluid force i have success and fun. i like taking a combo of gun line and some fluid tank/deep striking units, they never see it coming when half your ig sunddenly surge forward lol. i've found the new combined squads rule works well 20 or 30 guards men as a group are hard to shift. for every 10 guys you can take a sergent, heavy and special weapon. had a 30 man squad beat a genestealers squad in combat last time i played nids!

 

[Dogmar]

Interesting point nichorn, but still I don't really like the look of IG - too 21st century for my taste.

So, Danceman, did you play your games on friday? I'm curious to read about the results somewhere. Or will there even be a whole battle report?

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Besides their WW1 aesthetic, another downside to contend with is the powergamer bandwagon. Everyone(or at least, everyone who cares about that kind of thing) knows that IG are amongst the top 3 competitive armies, heck, they are probably still top dog at the moment. At the very least, it's undeniable that a lot of their vehicles are waaay underpriced. Your wins may be a bit too easy for your liking should you play IG. And even if you're not a powergamer a lot of people might think you are one, with all the negative associations that the label comes with.

 

[Danceman]

So, Danceman, did you play your games on friday? I'm curious to read about the results somewhere. Or will there even be a whole battle report?

Illness got in the way but there will be a game this friday, even if I have to play on the kitchen table and use the toaster/frying pan as terrain.

I have made some observations though;
1. I love razorflails(re-rolls to hit and to-wound). Especially on bloodbrides.
2. Reavers flyby + Mandrakes = Faster pain token for the Mandrakes. So FnP + their shooting attack = sorted. This also works with shooting as we've got a fair deal of long range firepower now(splinter cannons are 36"!".
3. 6 Reavers seems to be the way to go. Upgrades not really nessecary though I would actually recommend putting 2 blasters with the unit.
4. 5 trueborn + 2 Splinter cannons + Venom with splinter cannon = cheap unit with a very high rate of fire. Alternatively, 4 TB + Haemonculi with Hexrifle.
5. I adore Ravagers with flickerfields and Nightshields. Also, do not underestimate dissies. They rip through marines, even termies(AP2!). I suspect my 1500+ lists will always include 2 Lance Ravagers + 1 Dissie Ravager. All with nighshields and flickerfields.

I am not really that amazed by the incubi though I want to test out the 5 strong squad in a venom more extencively before dismissing it. Bloodbrides on the other hand is very appealing.

I am also quite curious about fielding more a haemonculi coven army but first things first.

 

[Dogmar]

I'm sorry to hear that you got sick. I, too, don't feel too well at the moment, but I'm recovering I think.

To comment your observations:
Do you think wyches outclass the kabalite warriors because of more useful equipment / higher survivability once in combat?
Interesting to see that you've found a use for the mandrakes. I browsed the forums you suggested and most people found the models astonishing to look at, but the unit not perform well in combat.
Assuming Reavers are the jetbikes: why would you recommend to not upgrade them. From my understanding of the rules D6 S6 hits and possible pinning checks are nothing to laugh at.
Also, what's the point in having a haemonculus run with trueborn? The trueborn seem to be more of a improved version of the normal kabalites and thus a ranged unit. Basically they are kabalites with more special weapon options. The haemonculus on the other side has close combat equipment by default (handweapon + pistol)

Sorry if I'm posing some super-annoying / dumb questions here, but seeing that DE are my favourite for now I'm curious. I still need some input on Tau although the apparent lack of variation in the army list is kind of disappointing for me. By that I mean the most effective build was, is and will be a ranged focus. I don't see an entire kroot army work somehow.

Cheers,

Dogmar

 

[Danceman]

Haemonculi is there to use his hexrifle. Sniper rifle which can kill a carnifex with a single shot. He also grant them FnP.

With Reavers upgrading them with caltrops is only 2points less than another Reaver. I never consider any advice to be absolute, so if you think your list will do better with having 1-2 reavers with caltrops, then do it. Too many upgrades and the points quickly run out.

Wyches and warriors in combat. Wyches, hands down. 4++ saves, drugs, more attacks, wych weapons and I6. Warriors = always keep your distance unless you fight guardsmen or something equally useless.

 

[Dogmar]

I see, you can build your haemonculus to be a ranged specialist and thus fit to the trueborns.

Your point about the reavers is true, as I don't own the codex yet I didn't have specific point costs to base my thoughts on. It might be a good idea then to get more bodies, i.e. jetbikes, and just invest in the things that can pin an enemy down. Pinned models can't move or shoot in the next turn, is that right?!

Also I was never saying that kabalite warriors are meant to be in combat, although I'm wondering why they got 2 attacks. As a ranged unit they don't benefit in any way from that. Generally you should be mixing kabalites with wyches, is that the right conclusion?! The next problem would then be to find the right mixing ratio. With too few combat units the wyches will get annihilated fast, but with too many, thinning out the enemy lines won't work that reliable. Also I think there might be a money issue, since as far as I have read every unit should bring it's own transport, which gets rather expensive fast.