8th Black Knights

[Kalandros]

Cavalry will strike in 2 ranks as well, just not the mounts, only the front mounts get to attack.

Couple this with Banner of the Barrows for +1 to hit and a unit of 12 black knights that ignores the terrain's 'Dangerous test' (roll a 1 = lose a model) for cavalry, they can seek flanks with relative ease. Give them a Wight King too of course, though you also need to keep a Vampire model nearby - Varghulf would be perfect for that - apparently it counts as a big monster so it gets +d6 attacks at the end of the combat.

I can see potential here, I don't think I'll be shelving my black knights, not only because they are not built yet though.

 

[loquar]

Thats a very expensive unit, if it doesnt break the enemy on the charge which it likely wont then you effectively end up with 2 ranks of grave guard with a slightly better save and some rather uninspiring mount attacks. Likely to end in crumbles and tears IMO

 

[Fodderboy]

I think bulkier BK units will be quite viable. We'll just need the extra rank for breakage, but overall I think the unit will be more robust than the 5-man units we were using previous edition.

As we know from playing Brets, nothing feels so much like "I'm so screwed" as when you're flank charged by ranked cav.

 

[Udo]

I think if we use the big units of black knights, that we will probably want to kit up a character with blood drinker to lead them. Otherwise if they dont have that then i think that they will probably be charge once and do a lot of damage then be ground down after that.

 

[Johnny B]

It'll be interesting, thats for sure. Small units seem way too risky now with the Initiative order striking, so I think its dedicated, points-heavy combat units with a character only, from now on. Even then, you can't smash through like in 7th.

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

Well small high elf units will still have a bit of fun, like swordmasters, its just everyone else's small units that will suffer a bit.

 

[midean]

A unit of 12 knights with BoB comes in at 357 points. And thats without a character to boost them. For those points I'd rather have a unit of Bloodknights. You may lose the terrain advantage but you deal out more first turn damage and can stay around for the second and still dish it out. Not saying bk's don't have their place...Just not in that size...

And it seems that everybody is planning on going along with the increase in points for the battles. Have you thought of the tactics/size of units to use in 8th with the standard points you play with now? Changes a lot things.....Try coming up with a list thinking about the new rules and the old point limit. You field less core/same amount but bigger units. And not much changes with the specials and rares.....points are not there to spend.....

 

[Vlad Von Carstien]

The only problem I see with the massive blood knight brick Idea is the sheer amount of pionts and the % limits. Dont get me wrong I love blood knights but in 2000pts that is alot of pionts.

 

[Crovan]

Sounds like the criticisms assume an unsupported charge. Sounds like VCs got spoiled during my 7e hiatus. Add in some ranked skellies and it gets a lot better for SCR.

Blood Knights wont break ranks, so you're looking at a stubborn unit against most things. The CR difference plus stubborn makes me think (hope) the blood Knight deathstar is dead.

 

[Fodderboy]

Consider a unit of Knights as an escort for the BSB.

BSB has Dread Knight and Supernatural Horror.
Unit has Screaming Banner.
Terror +2CR
2 Standards +2CR

Forcing 3 dice for Ld effectively lowers enemy leadership by 2, so against units with starting Ld 8, they now have an effective leadership of 6, meaning they will have WS 1 60% of the time. Lower leadership units will be in even rougher shape.

Give the BSB AoDM, stick him on a horse with some variety of magic armour, and that same unit now has an effective Ld of 5, and so failing 72% of the time.

Black Knights are far from gone. I think they will become relegated to mobile vamp support (like the rest of our troops).

The only reason I even included the vamp is for the Terror. If Shades of Death holds true, we can just cast it on the unit with the Screaming Banner for a merry ol' time.

Mobility has been and always be a key component of the game, and our BK's, especially with the new movement options, will be running around to their dusty little heart's content, getting exactly where we need them to get to.

Not every unit we face will be horde-sized. There will be one or two key bricks, and then support. BK's hammer at the support, just like they do now.

 

[Faceface1991]

BSB has Dread Knight and Supernatural Horror.
Unit has Screaming Banner.
Terror +2CR
2 Standards +2CR

Terror gives you +2CR?

 

[Originman]

Terror gives you +2CR?

Pretty sure that was a rumour that ended up being false.

 

[Originman]

Forcing 3 dice for Ld effectively lowers enemy leadership by 2, so against units with starting Ld 8, they now have an effective leadership of 6, meaning they will have WS 1 60% of the time. Lower leadership units will be in even rougher shape.

Give the BSB AoDM, stick him on a horse with some variety of magic armour, and that same unit now has an effective Ld of 5, and so failing 72% of the time.

I hate to play the math-geek here, but saying "3d6 take the 2 highest" effectively reduces their leadership by 2 is a poor approximation at higher leadership scores.

If they had a starting Ld 8, it would mean they have ws 1 ~52% of the time (not 60%), and if you threw in the AoDM guy, it would make it ~68% (which is a lot closer to your 72% estimate).

Also, you can't have a BSB with both AoDM and Terror (too many points).
And putting a Vampire in BKs kills their Ethereal movement abilities, which would make them a lot less manueverable (or at least keep them from ignoring the negative terrain effects in 8th)
A Wight King BSB, with a banner to support the unit (Barrows or BloodKeep) might be a good idea.

That said, I agree with your observations of the role of BK in 8th edition VC armies. I like them, and with terrain being as unpredictable as people are saying it might be, it will be nice to have a hammer that can ignore it.

I also like the screaming banner. Though in Black Knights and Grave Guard (who could take it without the BSB) I think it will generally be more worthwhile to go with the dependable barrows banner, as it has a very similar effect offensively.

 

[Fodderboy]

I hate to play the math-geek here, but saying "3d6 take the 2 highest" effectively reduces their leadership by 2 is a poor approximation at higher leadership scores.

Plot the bell curve and tell me what it looks like.
[attachment=742]

For a back-of-the-napkin discussion, an LD decrease of two seems close enough for rock-lobbers.

As for the rest of your points about totals and etheral movement, I agree, but I was simplifiying. Terror could be achieved on the BSB with either Scabscrath or 7th Edition Shades of Death.

Yes sticking a vamp in there negates their etheralness, but they are more robust than dogs, and I think there will be cost issues with Blood Knights.

 

[Originman]

See the truncated look of the 3d6-take2highest graph? Because of that, your mean is a hair less than 8.5. So really its about a 1.5 point shift, which probably isn't worth the points, considering (as I mentioned) you can get the offensive half the effect reliably for 5 more points.

Which is unfortunate because I really like the style of that banner.

I agree with the problem with Bloodknights. Too pricey to get 2 ranks, and TLOS might hurt them a bit, with stray bolt throwers, etc.

 

[Onikaigo]

I've....never taken a knight unit more than 7 models wide.

I don't play Brets. (Yet) I play Vampires. And my Vampires don't win by heroic cavalry charges. We pull you into the muck and snack on you until you get up and B-slap the person that was eating you.

It's how I roll.

So, I give the concept credit that it could very well be viable, if you want to spend that many special points into a single unit. It would definitely negate ranks, and prove an exciting option....but I don't think I'd do it. I'll be giving a long hard look at my oh so loved Black Knights and see what I can do with them come 8'th edition.

 

[Fallen Angel]

I know that at least I will run a six man knight unit with strigos banner and a WK bsb with SoK and NS. Gives a very mobile hero/heavy armour-killer unit. My lord will also use duel blades and crown of commandment to pass of some sweet ws10 to needing units. That is of course unless the duel blades says something "..ws 10 in close combat.." we shall see!

 

[Thanmar Thrask]

As my army seems to head for a Bones&Ghosts legion, I'll make sure to incorporate these guys. Probably as Flank support and Lone Characters/War Machine hunter. With a size about 6-10 with FC and the Hellfire Banner.

 

[N.I.B]

I take it the second rank cavalry models are reduced to one attack each? Not affecting Black Knights, but Blood Knights.

Oh, and Screaming Banner doesn't affect Terror tests, only Fear tests.

 

[Fodderboy]

Oh, and Screaming Banner doesn't affect Terror tests, only Fear tests.

That's not nearly as good as I thought. I had glorified it to read that Ld tests caused by the unit were at 3D6.

Mental Note: RTFM

Edit: Good to see you in here again , your N.I.B.s. Either I've been reading the wrong threads, or you've been quiet for a while.

 

[N.I.B]

I've not been here for quite a while, true. But I soon have 2000 points of Tyranids painted I still play VC though.

 

[Thanmar Thrask]

Looked at known rules again, and I think Black Knights might become a standard for Lone Char/War Machine hunting. ( Unless you skip it ofcourse ) You will be rolling D6+3/4 Pieces of terrain at the start of a battle. Anything from fences, to whole small settlements and rivers to charnel pits.

With this many terrain all over the battlefield, Black Knights will be able to go unharmed through places where other armies might not be able to pass through at all, and evade the main army.

 

[Kalandros]

Movement Penalties over terrain are GONE.
Chariots take D6 Wounds only if they roll a 1 on a D6 first (Ethereal chariot will be ignoring this I think)

Certain terrain pieces will cause damage or cause dangerous terrain test (roll of 1 on a d6 = 1 wound no armor save) - all cavalry (thus ethereal steeds should be exempt) will take dangerous terrain test in forests and possibly rivers.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Movement Penalties over terrain are GONE.
Chariots take D6 Wounds only if they roll a 1 on a D6 first (Ethereal chariot will be ignoring this I think)

Certain terrain pieces will cause damage or cause dangerous terrain test (roll of 1 on a d6 = 1 wound no armor save) - all cavalry (thus ethereal steeds should be exempt) will take dangerous terrain test in forests and possibly rivers.

So Black Knights are completely nerfed? Their only advantage over Blood Knights, in my opinion, was the terrain penalty negation. Now they suck!

 

[N.I.B]

So Black Knights are completely nerfed? Their only advantage over Blood Knights, in my opinion, was the terrain penalty negation. Now they suck!

Crazy talk.

The biggest advantage (close tie with the liability of Frenzy) Blacks had over Bloods, was their cost. And nothing has changed there. For the same price as 5 Blood Knights with Hatred banner you get 10 Black Knights with barding, full command and flaming attacks. Both a hammer and anvil and can take twice the punishment, plus nowadays all models in the unit get to attack. The etheral movement was (is) mostly a gimmick and very situational.