Against Skaven Tactics

[billybaker101]

So i have a match against skaven on the weekend at 2k points and am looking for useful tactics and hints as to what works and what to avoid. All i know of his list is that he is rocking up a screaming bell.Is this something to be weary of? Is it best to tarpit or try and take it out asap?
Another question is should i take a SH as i gather they have tons of magical attacks and will probably get fried early. Or is this a way to try and screen my TG from damage?
Also im wondering if ogre blade is over kill on these guys as most of them are toughness 3 or 4, but it would wreak that bell pretty quick. Just trying to get as much in for my points as poss this is what i have so far.

Master necromancer lv 4 top

Vamp lv 1 barded steed, HA, shield, ogre blade, Talisman of endurance, book of arkhan Red fury QB

Wight King HA GW Barded

5 x dire wolves
5 x dire wolves

20 x zombies
40 x zombies standard
40 x zombies standard
25 x Skeletons banner musician sword and board

9 x Black knights command, barded, lances banner of barrows

6 x crypt horrors

1 x spirit host

1 x TG

 

[Bullhax]

So i have a match against skaven on the weekend at 2k points and am looking for useful tactics and hints as to what works and what to avoid. All i know of his list is that he is rocking up a screaming bell.Is this something to be weary of? Is it best to tarpit or try and take it out asap?
Another question is should i take a SH as i gather they have tons of magical attacks and will probably get fried early. Or is this a way to try and screen my TG from damage?
Also im wondering if ogre blade is over kill on these guys as most of them are toughness 3 or 4, but it would wreak that bell pretty quick. Just trying to get as much in for my points as poss this is what i have so far.

Master necromancer lv 4 top

Vamp lv 1 barded steed, HA, shield, ogre blade, Talisman of endurance, book of arkhan Red fury QB

Wight King HA GW Barded

5 x dire wolves
5 x dire wolves

20 x zombies
40 x zombies standard
40 x zombies standard
25 x Skeletons banner musician sword and board

9 x Black knights command, barded, lances banner of barrows

6 x crypt horrors

1 x spirit host

1 x TG

Well your biggest problem is that you're horribly over your lord allowance (about 170 points over) loose the MN

If the vampire is not a lord he has too much gear and to many vampiric abilities.

A doomwheel or warp lightning cannon is your TG's biggest problems they can zap it FAST..

If it's a tailored list I'd loose the SH, skaven have too many magical attacks.

I'd actually for once even loose the TG as it will get killed - fast and it's scream attack is somewhat lost on most of the skaven units as they have so many bodies.

Ramming a bus down the throat of the bell unit is not a bad idea.. The grey seer on top and the bell is worth a lot of points and at 2k his seer is not fully equipped. He has 4++ though so consider bringing the OTS.

I'd loose the wight king and get in a baby vamp with red fury (or QB and a weapon that increase his number of attacks) so you can rake up those kills. Consider the sword of anti heroes, S7 is rarely needed against skaven I'd rather have more attacks for more red fury!

Be wary of his slave units, I'd take the banner of swiftness instead of the barrows one and get more black knights they are there as a delivery system not to kill stuff.

 

[billybaker101]

woah cheers for the goof on the points thats what you get when you rely on programs to tally up your army for ya i guess. Be sad to see the TG go but i had a feeling he would just get wasted straight off the bat.

Not feeling the wight king huh? fair enough, sword of anti heroes is a great idea i hadnt thought of that perfect for killing that seer.

Cheers im gonna re do the list

 

[billybaker101]

also do you mean im over my hero allowance? as the lord allowance is just the master necro other vamp is a hero?

 

[Bullhax]

also do you mean im over my hero allowance? as the lord allowance is just the master necro other vamp is a hero?

My point was that I couldn't see if it was a lord or hero The load out suggested lord but then you would've been way over in lord allowance.. Remember heroes can only take 50 points worth of items and 50 points of powers..

I'd go with a Vampire lord instead of a master necro as he is what will bring the pain and a bus won't be effective without one!!

I generally love WK's but you need offence in that bus not defence a vampire will give you that.. Remember you have to chew through a lot of bodies 3 WK attacks won't do that for you

The TG is normally a good choice but if this is a tailored list against skaven I wouldn't bring it too much stuff that can kill it and fast..

If you want a MN to lead your army I'd lose the black knights as they won't do enough on their own..

 

[billybaker101]

Cool ok so swap my hero vamp to a lord. turn my master necro into a level 2 necro.
And gain a hero vamp instead of the wight are we thinking red fury and sword of anti heroes for the hero vamp? So i have some points over and im not sure what best to fill them with i can boost the crypt horrors to 8. Anything else be effective against these ratmen?

 

[billybaker101]

Also is it best to make the vamp lord a level 4?

 

[billybaker101]

ok so now it is something more like


Vamp lord lv 4 Shield; Heavy Armour; Barded Nightmare; GW; Red Fury; Quickblood TOP

Vamp lv 1 barded steed, HA, shield,sword of anti heroes, Red fury



5 x dire wolves
5 x dire wolves

20 x zombies
40 x zombies standard
40 x zombies standard
25 x Skeletons banner musician sword and board screaming banner

9 x Black knights command, barded, lances banner of swiftness
8 x crypt horrors

I really wanted book or arkhan on here but cant see a way to squeeze it on. My points are sitting at 1,955 so 45 points on something else any ideas???????

 

[Bullhax]

Cool ok so swap my hero vamp to a lord. turn my master necro into a level 2 necro.
And gain a hero vamp instead of the wight are we thinking red fury and sword of anti heroes for the hero vamp? So i have some points over and im not sure what best to fill them with i can boost the crypt horrors to 8. Anything else be effective against these ratmen?

The Lord build I would suggest would be:

VL:
Level 3 LoV, barded nightmare, heavy armour, enchanted shield, Sword of anti heroes, ToP and OTS. QB and RF.

Baby vamp.:
Level 1 death, barded nightmare, lance, heavy armour, dragonhelm, DS or Book of Arkhan, luckstone. RF or QB.

On the baby vamp. I'd go with RF against skaven as you will need to kill a lot of rats, book of arkhan will help you with the rerolls.

CH's are great 8 is normally the magic number and will work well against skaven.

I'd reduce the core to 500 points.

Left over points could be spent on a necro too keep the zeds at full "health"

Edit:
I'd consider changing the enchanted shield to the charmed one if you think me might go shooty.

 

[billybaker101]

Ok so with changes the list now reads

VL:
Level 3 LoV, barded nightmare, heavy armour, enchanted shield, Sword of anti heroes, ToP and OTS. QB and RF.

Baby vamp.:
Level 1 death, barded nightmare, lance, heavy armour, dragonhelm, Book of Arkhan, luckstone. RF

Necro Lv 2 LoV dispell scroll

5 x dire wolves
5 x dire wolves

20 x zombies
40 x zombies standard
40 x zombies standard
35 x zombies standard

9 x Black knights command, barded, lances banner of swiftness

8 x crypt horrors

with all this i have 64 pts remaining wondering if to increase hero vamp to level 2 to get more death spells. Also am i looking for a particular spell for his lore of death or just going for the signature spell?

Or boosting the black knights maybe what do ya think?

 

[Adam_Barrow]

2 units of 2 Fell Bats will spend those extra points nicely. Get his Slaves with your Zombies and waste his tarpits while your mobile bus kills the Bell/Monks/sometimes Rogres. Your Knights need to avoid Warpfire Throwers and Poisoned Wind Mortars (both Weapon Teams) and anything with the name Globadier, Orb, or Globe.

Will there be a Wheel involved? Or an abom?

 

[billybaker101]

Cheers Adam for the heads up i dont know his list other than screaming bell and some clan rats it could be anything really. Fell bats hey. I hadn't considered them is that just more chaff to tie him up i take it? Also how is death magic against skaven worth taking or going for shadow? im very new to this game so im struggling to see the perks of having another lore in there.

 

[Bullhax]

Cheers Adam for the heads up i dont know his list other than screaming bell and some clan rats it could be anything really. Fell bats hey. I hadn't considered them is that just more chaff to tie him up i take it? Also how is death magic against skaven worth taking or going for shadow? im very new to this game so im struggling to see the perks of having another lore in there.

Yes but the fact that they can fly makes them very good chaff They will actually help a lot with getting your bus where it needs to go and getting the units you don't want to ram into your bus away.!

Well both lore are very good but their big killer spells rely on hitting the I of the enemy, and skavens are very high. But both lores are VERY good and could very well be used against skaven too, they both have debuff spells and good damage spells.

Give them a thorough read and feel free to ask specific questions if you have any, it is the best advice I can give you.

 

[billybaker101]

Ok so i see the obvious appeal to purple sun the likelihood of rolling for that and actually being able to cast it are slim to none. Pit of shades looks like a great spell but once again a high casting value with a level 1. The death lore does look better with spirit leech being quite possible to cast shame the vamp only has ld 7 mind you i think the seer has about the same so it would be down to the dice how that would play out. As well i think doom and darkness would be great and getting those skaven to fail ld tests for fear or fleeing so i feel that would be the spell to help me the most. The more i read about the death the more i see the appeal for killing off lone players. Im just wondering if a level one will have the options i need? Im thinking d & D and fate of bhuna would be great spells to throw out especially as the other player wont realize i have that lore until i go to use it. But realistically what are the chances of getting either of them?

 

[Bullhax]

Ok so i see the obvious appeal to purple sun the likelihood of rolling for that and actually being able to cast it are slim to none. Pit of shades looks like a great spell but once again a high casting value with a level 1. The death lore does look better with spirit leech being quite possible to cast shame the vamp only has ld 7 mind you i think the seer has about the same so it would be down to the dice how that would play out. As well i think doom and darkness would be great and getting those skaven to fail ld tests for fear or fleeing so i feel that would be the spell to help me the most. The more i read about the death the more i see the appeal for killing off lone players. Im just wondering if a level one will have the options i need? Im thinking d & D and fate of bhuna would be great spells to throw out especially as the other player wont realize i have that lore until i go to use it. But realistically what are the chances of getting either of them?

You've got it yes. But your vamp. is not Ld 7, when in range of your lord he uses his Ld so he's Ld 10 so spirit leach is the only thing you go for with your level one, unless your roll actually by chance gives you something that would be even better in the current battle. The fact though that you know you can get spirit leach is what is appealing, having to rely on luck for something to succeed is never a good strategy.!

It can be used on rare choices with great effect as well, the doomwheel also only has Ld 7, same with the WLC, the HPA has Ld 8 and regen so might not be the best target for a snipe..

You openly roll for spells so you have to show your opponent what spells you have so no secret spells sadly

 

[billybaker101]

Oh right that changes everything. Spirit leech here I come bye bye grey seer. Thanks for all the pointers bullhax

 

[Bullhax]

Oh right that changes everything. Spirit leech here I come bye bye grey seer. Thanks for all the pointers bullhax

You are very welcome I gladly answer the questions I can

 

[billybaker101]

Wow so i played the game last night. He slaughtered me there were some definite mistakes on my part but holy shit skaven can be surprisingly tricky. He ended up having a plague furness and a sreaming bell. And those things are a real pain in the ass. I got a flank charge on the furness with my bk and targetted the rank and file i suspect i should of gone straight for the furness. as 3 turns later im still there with only one black knight left and my lord and hero vamp remaining. His magic totally dominated mine i wasnt able to get many invo's off. The biggest problem was the bloody scenario where i had to set up my whole army first so he could just pick his match ups. The poor old horrors got bogged down by like 50 or 60 slaves and took 3 turns to get rid of the little pests. he ran rat packs in dart formation so i could only kill one per turn and he had 2 freaking cannons shooting the hell out of me. Very frustrating. And this spell he had called wither wiped out an entire unit of zombies in 3 turns as i didnt have the dice to dispell. i think if i could have taken the furnace out then maybe the tide could of turned but other than that i dont know what else i could of done. Blasted rats

 

[Bullhax]

Wow so i played the game last night. He slaughtered me there were some definite mistakes on my part but holy shit skaven can be surprisingly tricky. He ended up having a plague furness and a sreaming bell. And those things are a real pain in the ass. I got a flank charge on the furness with my bk and targetted the rank and file i suspect i should of gone straight for the furness. as 3 turns later im still there with only one black knight left and my lord and hero vamp remaining. His magic totally dominated mine i wasnt able to get many invo's off. The biggest problem was the bloody scenario where i had to set up my whole army first so he could just pick his match ups. The poor old horrors got bogged down by like 50 or 60 slaves and took 3 turns to get rid of the little pests. he ran rat packs in dart formation so i could only kill one per turn and he had 2 freaking cannons shooting the hell out of me. Very frustrating. And this spell he had called wither wiped out an entire unit of zombies in 3 turns as i didnt have the dice to dispell. i think if i could have taken the furnace out then maybe the tide could of turned but other than that i dont know what else i could of done. Blasted rats

The furnace is one of the few things that can deal with armour well in a skaven army, on top of that it makes the unit unbreakable so it won't run away. Getting your most expensive unit stuck in 3 turns of CC is not ideal that's for sure, how on earth did he survive 6 rounds of close combat with your lord and baby vamp? Your Lord alone had 6 S6 attacks with reroll to hit.

Can you write what his list looked like, unit size of the plague monks and bell unit? Just to get an idea It will be easier going forward too, you'll beat him next time

 

[billybaker101]

Yeah ok ive taken a couple pics just to give you the idea they are quite low res but you can get the jist of whats what i think.

 

[billybaker101]

ok so he just mailed me over his list what do ya think?


LORD- lvl.4 Grey Seer Vislikit on Screaming Bell w/ Power Scroll (that I never used because I forgot I had it, halves casting cost for one spell). --475pts.
Spells- (Ruin) Skitterleap, (Ruin) Scorch, (Plague) Wither, (Other) Dreaded 13th.

HERO- Chieftain BSB (no magical banner). --70pts.
Warlock Engineer w/ Doomrocket. --45pts.
lvl.1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace w/ Flail, Dispel Scroll, Opal Amulet (One use 4+ Wd on 1st W). --294pts.
Spells- (Plague) Plague.

CORE- 49x Skavenslaves w/ Musician. --100pts. (<-- LOL)
5x Giant Rats, 1x Packmaster. --23pts.
5x Giant Rats, 1x Packmaster. --23pts.
35x Clanrats w/Full CMD, Shields, Spears, Ratling Gun Weapon Team. --245pts. (Grey Seer unit)
10x Stormvermin w/Full CMD, Storm Banner, Ratling Gun Weapon Team. --200pts.

SPECIAL- 30x Plague Monks w/Full CMD, Plague Banner. --265pts. (Plague Priest unit)
5x Plague Censer Bearers. --80pts.

RARE- Warp-Lightning Cannon. --90pts.
Warp-Lightning Cannon. --90pts.

 

[Mad 'At]

If those were the spells he rolled he was very lucky, those pretty much pinpoints the best spells in those lores, and are among the best spells in the game aswell.

 

[Bullhax]

Pretty solid list, how both his furnace unit and slaves held that long is beyond me..

Your VL alone should kill 7 plague monks average pr turn of CC including RF, if you hit the furnace itself you would've done it in, in two turns of CC, did you remember your Sword of anti heroes, QB reroll and RF attacks?

The senario was a big reason I suspect though, going forward two units of 3 varghulfs will be able to kill the cannons and snipe lone units / weapons teams

 

[billybaker101]

Yeah thats what I thought a combination of bad dice and bad deployment. Cant wait to face him again all attacks are going for the furnace off the charge and take that thing down. Yeah had the sword did forget the re rolls on the first turn so that would of gained a few wounds. Just have to pug it down to experience I guess. Shame though if that furnace had gone the knights would of wrecked everything else

 

[billybaker101]

Yeah that withering spell was nasty I didnt realise it was permanent