Any tips vs Lizzies in 8th?

[LevDaddy]

Hello to all,

Tomorrow starts an 8th league at my LGS. It's my first league/tournament ever. We'll be playing once a week for about 2 months. My lofty goal? - don't finish last.

I am pretty new to Warhammer having played about 20 games in 7th and 2 or 3 test games in 8th, so I need all the help I can get. My first game is against Lizardmen. I've only played them once in 7th so I am not very familiar. I have no idea what my opponent will bring.

The league will be pitched battles, 2000 pt lists, 4 turns, most points left on the table wins.

I'm thinking of running a Hybrid Lord with Red Fury, +2S sword, Beasts/Death magic and defense. A support vamp with vampire magic and the Helm. BSB with Rampager's standard and a Necro. Big block of Skellies, big block of Ghouls, a ghoul bunker for my support vamp and Necro, and a big block of GG (HW&S). I'll finish it up with a Varghulf and some Bats/Wolves.

My plan is pretty standard point deny and grind while buffing my big blocks and keeping them rezz'd up. I'd like to stay away from the Purple Sun spam as I don't think that is all too sporting and I am not that competitive.

I know Saurus can be stout and a Slann and Steggies can be brutal as well. Any tips and combos are welcome.

 

[Count Lasombra]

Whatever you do avoid the Slann's TLOS w/ your general.
Avoid combat with his saurus/temple gaurd if you can.I would try to put some wraith's and a banshee in.Great anti-skinkers,also the banshee's scream can waste alot of LM units(steggie) b/c their ld stat is rather low.
I would want double vargulf and black knights on one flank,since the game is only 4 turns,a timely concentrated attack could net you points w/o retaliation.
It's bad news generally though LM are an MF.
Bring a feedback scroll
He will be throwing 6 dice a turn and praying for a miscast.

 

[stevielash]

Watch out for cupped hands to the old ones , lets them shift a miscast to one of your casters likely your general, i think it has a limited range though.

 

[Count Lasombra]

It's range is the slann's LOS.

 

[LevDaddy]

Thanks for the tips guys, great stuff so far.

I'll probably take my Lord in a Hellsteed so I can get in and out of danger and throw in some Wraiths/Banshee as well.

Any magic suggestions? If he does take a Slann, what's my best bet of getting some magic to work?

@ Count L - Why the Feedback Scroll? I've had it used once against me and it didn't do much of anything. If he rolls 6 dice to cast, doesn't miscast, and then scores a few 5 or 6's for the feedback wound roll, can't he just ward them off? Also, doesn't the Slann have 5 wounds? It doesn't seem worth 50 pts to have the potential to do a wound or 2.

 

[Count Lasombra]

Even wounding the frog gives you a slight psychological edge.My primary army is lizzies,and one likes to think his frog is hid good
Really though,it may kill a skink preist on EOTG.It seemed like a good impulse suggestion.
You should be able to cast some spells succesfully,but don't expect to prevent the slann from casting.Pit of shades is your friend.
Combat-wise if you can get behind his line,a few casualties on the TG will expose the frog to a rear charge.
A varghulf in the ass could close the deal.erv:
Throw a unit under the bus to set it up.I have overextended myself b4 and suffered from this.

 

[WhiteStar]

A few ideas on the magic side.

-The Purple Sun of Xereus will slaughter Lizzies
-Spirit Leach is very effective on Stegadon's and Skink mages

Otherwise

-His Saurus will pour out decent amount of attacks and have solid toughness, you might be better of with Ghouls chewing at them with poison rather than Skellies

-As said, Banshees are good for the same reason Spirit Leach is good

-Depends on how you play the Black Coach (does it suck dice during the opponents turn?) might be a solid choice - it will hamper his magic phase and allow you to have missile to take out smaller units, especially if you get him etheral

-Great Weapon GG will have a field day with the Saurus

-A corpse cart (or even two!) with bale fire will mess with his magic

Some thoughts! Let us know how it plays out!

 

[Fodderboy]

Go ahead and use Lore of Death to snipe the frog if you like, but throwing 5 dice at Pit o Shades (big template, of course) from Lore of Shadows will take out the bulk of the unit around the frog. Watching 60% of the bodyguard unit disappear on turn 1-2 will totally put them on the defensive.

 

[LevDaddy]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. After researching some things I think I will go with Shadow rather than Death or Beasts. PoS and the RiP hexes will work wonders I think.

My battle is tonight, I will let you know how it goes.

 

[N.I.B]

Lizardmen are just brutal in 8th ed. Ld 9 Coldblood, it's like an ITP army that are allowed to flee when it's beneficial. Slann can cast more or less the whole lore of Life in a single magic phase! Throne of Vines is the must-stop spell, the rest you just have to take on the chin. Those Stegadons will never die.

I like to play aggressive, depending on respective builds. If I see an opportunity to send Grave Guards against the Slann Templeguards, I will take it. Since you now have to stick to your choice of magic lore, chances are good that the Slann will have Lore of Life which isn't that good against Wraiths. So Wraiths is good meta in LM-heavy tournaments.

 

[Forge]

Lizardmen are just brutal in 8th ed. Ld 9 Coldblood, it's like an ITP army that are allowed to flee when it's beneficial. Slann can cast more or less the whole lore of Life in a single magic phase! Throne of Vines is the must-stop spell, the rest you just have to take on the chin. Those Stegadons will never die.

I like to play aggressive, depending on respective builds. If I see an opportunity to send Grave Guards against the Slann Templeguards, I will take it. Since you now have to stick to your choice of magic lore, chances are good that the Slann will have Lore of Life which isn't that good against Wraiths. So Wraiths is good meta in LM-heavy tournaments.

there 100's of ways to destroy a stegadon before it even touches you, Konrad, GG with GW's, Lore of death, lore of shadows, blood knights, tomb banshee, black coach, vampire lord with frost blade ect.

 

[LevDaddy]

Great success!!!! A victory for the Vampire Counts!

I played a solid game and my poor opponent had terrible terrible luck. He practically missed every crucial roll the entire game.

Quick recap - I had 20 GW GG's front and center with the Drakenhoff BSB and even though he nuked a few in the first 2 rounds, I Van Hels them straight into his Temple Guard/Slann on turn 2, and I whittled and whittled away. I had a caster Lord on a Hellsteed constantly maneuvering and putting pressure on his big blocks, and a support vamp in the backfield, I forgot to use the Helm all game and didn't even need it. I had some junk Skellies on 1 flank just to spread him out, and I had a strong flank with a big unit of Ghouls, Wraiths/Banshee, and a Varghulf on the other. He had 2 big Saurus blocks, the TG/Slann, a Steggie and an Engine.

Long story short, Shadow magic was the real winner here, and I didn't even get off 1 Pit of Shades!!! It was all about the three hexes, you'd be amazed at what -D3 WS, casting on a 5, can do for 2 rounds of combat. He didn't think of dispelling it once because of the looming Pit of Shades and it had a big effect on the central battle. The other hexes were great as well, practically neutralizing his Stegadon the whole time.

By turn 3 every unit on the table was in combat, and by turn 4 his Slann was facing imminent doom, and he surrendered. A solid victory for my first ever league game. It was the first game I've played where I had a battle plan and felt in control from start to finish. His poor rolling helped a ton, but I kept the pressure on and had the psychological edge the whole game. I'm looking forward to my next game, next week, against either Skaven or Ogres.

 

[Count Lasombra]

 

[Dogmar]

Congratulations on the win. I personally always felt LM to be a hard enemy, because of both, the magic potential the slann brings to the table and the serious hurt saurus warriors with spears can do to your troops.

Would you mind posting your army list in the Legions of the Night forum? Im really interested in your character setups, as Im currently struggling with the decision to go for a combat or a caster lord in 2000pt games. I have found both to be really worth the bargain.

Once my combat lord who was accompanying Black Knights tore apart an entire unit of saurus warriors from the flank.
But as you have experienced, the caster setup also has huge advantages. the hexes are nothing to laugh at, Im sure your opponent will watch out for these more in future games.

The key to fighting lizzies imo lies in flanking his blocks and limiting his magic, be it through a black coach or through so much pressure on his units that he is forced to spend his PD to keep them going via Lore of Life (which is at least in my meta the most common setup on any lvl4 with access to it).

I might be a little late with my reply, sorry for that but maybe its going to help you in the future

just my 2 cents, cheers, dogmar

 

[LevDaddy]

@Dogmar, Thanks for the 2 cents, I posted my list, here:

https://www.vampirecounts.net/thread-10838.html

Some more thoughts on the battle:

My Lord wasn't anything to scream about build-wise, but he was not the key to my strategy. The key for him was the Hellsteed. Once I noticed that my opponent had little shooting (just the Boltgun on top of 1 Steggie), I had it in me to fly my Lord from unit, to flank, to unit, to wherever I needed him to go throughout.

My opponent took Lore of Light. He thought the bonus against undead would help him do some serious damage, but it ended up not being that critical because everything was in combat relatively quick, thus, no more magic missiles. I had to let some missiles and buffs through and take them on the chin, but they didn't prove as effective as my Shadow hexes and Vampire magic. We chatted after the game and he regretted not taking Lore of Life and vowed to do so in the next match.

Vampire Magic was a big winner as well. I had such free reign in the magic phase though because of his horrible dispelling rolls so I'll take it with some salt, but I think I will take a Forbidden Lore vampire with Vampire magic in every game. The lore is just so useful. Curse of Years, Wind of Undeath, Van Hel's, Magic Missile or Rezzing, pick your poison, all are so useful against pretty much any army and all are so easy to get off due to the minuscule casting values. I got off a 4 wound Wind of Undeath turn 1 and charged it into his Engine turn 2 and froze him for the rest of the game.

As Dogmar said, taking a strong flank was priority #1. I had my Wraiths, my Varghulf, my Ghoul bock and my Lord all on one side. Psychologically it caused my opponent to hesitate and turtle up which gave me free reign in the movement phase as well. Wraiths were in combat with a big block of Saurus on Turn 2, and Varghulf joined in on turn 3.

Also, I had a big block of junk Skellies on the other flank. A "these are supposed to die horribly but as long as they hold up a bigger, better, block of the enemy for at least 1 turn they are worth their weight in gold" block of junk Skellies. It worked well, I didn't even put them in march range, and I barely moved them. They literally were there to die (again ). They took the charge from some Saurus Spearmen and held up for, I believe, 3 rounds of combat. I got that tactic from the Brettonian Youtube battle reports by Once Bitten (which are a grrrreat learning tool, btw), and I like it. I might even split them up into 2 naked units of 15 so I can out-deploy my next opponent and divert even more attention over there, who said medium blocks were dead?

That's all for now. I'm going to have Warhammer weekend against my brother in law's Dark Elves. Hopefully we can get 2 or 3 big games in, I may post some stuff.