Are Dire Wolves auto-include?

[Ripper]

Before tonight I had never run VCs without at least 2 units of doggies. I was trying out some new things today and wow did I miss the little guys.

Does anyone here hit the table without dogs on a regular basis?

After tonight, I can't imagine doing it again. They just have too much utility.

 

[Kromul]

I NEVER leave home without them, I freaking love these little dogs (both, rules and visually) and I think they are ones of the better units in the book, period.
Depending on the points of the match, their number may change but somewhere between 2-4 units for 1500-2500 points I usually play is a nice spot. Sometimes I field them in units of more than 5, but usually find worse than more units of 5 >_<

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

The one thing that I think is holding dogs back is that they're NOT fast cav. If they were fast cav I'd run like 8-10 units of 5 dogs with champion and Summon Creatures of the Night on my vampires. Without fast cav they gum themselves up sometimes and get in the way of stuff. Good thing too, as at 40 points for 5 they'd be ridonc.

As it stands I don't think I'd ever leave home without 3 units in a 2,500 and am loving it. Vanguard puts them almost where they need to be, and 9" move gets them the rest of the way. And typically that place is "in front of frenzied shit so that they overrun into the middle of nowhere.

One thing I have found that makes them even better is to run them 2 or 3 wide instead of 5 wide. 5-wide makes it easier for them to block multiple units, but 2-wide makes it really easy to wheel (more maneuverability) and really easy to force whacky overruns since their flank is so large. Here's an example:

.0000000000
.0000000000
.0000000000
.dd
..dd
....d

So the dogs here are arranged 2-wide, and angled with their front facing slightly towards the left. The majority of the unit is in the dog's flank, so when they charge they have to wheel aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way around and be facing almost 90* from where they currently are. If the rest of my army is to the right they'll stuck either charging to clear the dogs then reforming to face right (pinning them in place for a turn) or free reform+moving to the right (halving their movement, and keeping the dogs alive for another day).

If they're frenzied (<cough>skullcrushers</cough>) they're forced to overrun off into the middle of nowhere. Better yet I can put ANOTHER unit of dogs 8" behind the direction of overrun so that they're likely to hit me then be forced to overrun AGAIN. Now they're probably 16" or so away from where they want to be, which is going to take them nearly 2 full rounds to come back from (free reform+move first turn, march second turn), and you've had 3-4 turns to deal with everything else unmolested.

2 units of dogs is 80 points, and what else out of core is going to do that kind of leg work for you? What are 8 ghouls going to do? What are 16 skeletons going to do? 10 if you take full command. 26 zombies you can make a better case for, but you can probably already fit a whack of those into your army and your march/IoN bubble is only so big...

 

[Kingside_Bishop]

Dire wolves are clutch. We have to spend our points on core, and they're usually not very good investments, but dire wolves are probably the most useful core choice we can make. I wouldn't want to run my BK bus without my wolves, and having a couple of darts around for assassinating characters has been useful on a couple occasions, as well.

I wouldn't leave home without them. Unless maybe I was using an all infantry horde list for fun, but then we're not talking about a competitive build.

 

[Thalasarian]

The one thing that I think is holding dogs back is that they're NOT fast cav. If they were fast cav I'd run like 8-10 units of 5 dogs with champion and Summon Creatures of the Night on my vampires. Without fast cav they gum themselves up sometimes and get in the way of stuff. Good thing too, as at 40 points for 5 they'd be ridonc.

As it stands I don't think I'd ever leave home without 3 units in a 2,500 and am loving it. Vanguard puts them almost where they need to be, and 9" move gets them the rest of the way. And typically that place is "in front of frenzied shit so that they overrun into the middle of nowhere.

One thing I have found that makes them even better is to run them 2 or 3 wide instead of 5 wide. 5-wide makes it easier for them to block multiple units, but 2-wide makes it really easy to wheel (more maneuverability) and really easy to force whacky overruns since their flank is so large. Here's an example:

.0000000000
.0000000000
.0000000000
.dd
..dd
....d

So the dogs here are arranged 2-wide, and angled with their front facing slightly towards the left. The majority of the unit is in the dog's flank, so when they charge they have to wheel aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way around and be facing almost 90* from where they currently are. If the rest of my army is to the right they'll stuck either charging to clear the dogs then reforming to face right (pinning them in place for a turn) or free reform+moving to the right (halving their movement, and keeping the dogs alive for another day).

If they're frenzied (<cough>skullcrushers</cough>) they're forced to overrun off into the middle of nowhere. Better yet I can put ANOTHER unit of dogs 8" behind the direction of overrun so that they're likely to hit me then be forced to overrun AGAIN. Now they're probably 16" or so away from where they want to be, which is going to take them nearly 2 full rounds to come back from (free reform+move first turn, march second turn), and you've had 3-4 turns to deal with everything else unmolested.

2 units of dogs is 80 points, and what else out of core is going to do that kind of leg work for you? What are 8 ghouls going to do? What are 16 skeletons going to do? 10 if you take full command. 26 zombies you can make a better case for, but you can probably already fit a whack of those into your army and your march/IoN bubble is only so big...

I am very new to Fantasy, and am thinking of buying a box of wolves today.
I will need how to learn to use these guys, well, because I agree with how useful they can be.
Never having actually used them, leaves me scratching my head on HOW to use them properly. I look at that diagram you made there with the "d" and I don't understand what you are trying to convey... it looks like the dogs are already in combat...? Why would the enemy have to wheel?
Sorry for my noobness.

 

[Powl]

In the diagram, the small Wolves unit is just in front of the enemy unit, positioned in a way to receive the enemy charge on the (in this case right) flank. So it has to make a big wheel to complete the charge.

I always bring Wolves as well, 2 units of 5 for extra drops in deployment. Fast redirectors or warmachine hunters, or if nothing else something my opponent has to shoot at instead of going for more expensive things.

 

[Sanguinus]

To expand on Powl's clarification: the unit of wolves is facing north west, with the front right corner facing the enemy unit. They are close but not actually in base contact.

 

[Xelgno]

Im not sure if this helps but this is the way im seeing it.

- - - - -
- - - - -

\\\
..\\\
....\\\

 

[SnEaKyGiT]

very basic but thought it might help.

 

[countulrich]

very basic but thought it might help.

If they aren't frenzied, then that unit isn't going to overun like that, they will just combat reform to face you again, and then you won't have the juicy flank charge. No good general gives you his flank like that unless he has to.

That said, yes wolves are auto include. My games are all 2000-2500 points, and ever list automatically has at least 20. I might take 4 5's, or a 10 and 2 5's, or 2x10, but there will be 20 wolves in there somewhere.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

If they aren't frenzied, then that unit isn't going to overun like that, they will just combat reform to face you again, and then you won't have the juicy flank charge. No good general gives you his flank like that unless he has to.

That said, yes wolves are auto include. My games are all 2000-2500 points, and ever list automatically has at least 20. I might take 4 5's, or a 10 and 2 5's, or 2x10, but there will be 20 wolves in there somewhere.

They won't, but that means they'll just reform and you've effectively pinned them in place for a turn. Maybe now that infantry unit can get a charge against them, and without the benefit of laces and +1 CR knights aren't nearly as scary.

 

[Burnanation]

Almost always an auto include.

I usually take a unit of 10 with a champ so they can charge and challenge Lord on Scary Monster and hold the lord of at least 2 rounds of combat.

Then I might grab some smaller units for the redirects.

 

[Bounce]

Personally i dont find holding an enemy unit up for one turn that helpful but the wolfies still come in handy. You can always do the samething with bats. spirit hosts or even zombies if you want.

 

[RarerMonsters]

Water is wet, fire is hot, Dire Wolves are our best core choice.

Aside from being cheap, fast redirectors, cheaper than a min-zombie unit, and our other choices being mediocre for anything but tarpitting, wolves offer an extremely important asset: Vanguards.

Vanguarding is one of the most important phases of the game, especially for enemies who can vanguard their redirectors up fast with no fear of us shooting them off the table.

Vanguarding a wolf-pack up the full 12 just to prevent an enemy from pushing up Elyrian Reavers, Dark Riders, Warlocks, or Gyros is a huge benefit and should not be ignored.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Every list I make runs atleast 4 wolf packs

 

[The Sun King]

I almost never play with them. Not that I dislike them, they're very good, but I just seldomly have the points for them in my lists and 3 single model SH do their job far better.

 

[Alabaster427]

After destroying countless war machines (even a steam tank once) and accomplishing other seemingly impossible endeavors (one wolf killed a unit of 15 thunderers with a general), I always take dire wolves. I even have some lists where they make up my entire core selection; and if so, I always take a vampire with "Summon Creatures of the Night."

 

[Blutsauger]

I almost never play with them. Not that I dislike them, they're very good, but I just seldomly have the points for them in my lists and 3 single model SH do their job far better.

What does the rest of your list usually look like? I like to take very mobile, aggressive lists, and the direwolves allow me to a) make cheap deployment drops that I can re-deploy with a vanguard move, b) use their vanguard move to immediately put the pressure on the enemy line by threatening missile troops and warmachines and placing themselves in inconvenient places and c) tie up any lone characters by challenging them with the Doom Wolf.

 

[HugoMac]

They have veery different uses, Sun King:

- Wolves avoid enemy´s vanguards (by doing it themselves), hunt warmachines, and redirect (dying, it´s true).

- Spirit Hosts "only" tarpit units. Yes, they EXCEL at this because can do it for the whole game, if the enemy doesn´t have magical attacks, but it´s hard to see them doing anything else (not impossible, of course).


Apart, wolves are core. That´s maybe the BEST thing they have.


I´m not saying wich one is better, both are awesome units (probably the best chaff in the game along with fell bats... who are also ours :devil2, but i can´t see how one could substitute another, trying to fill all roles.

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

I see everyone comparing these guys to Spirit Hosts and Fell Bats but… DIRE WOLVES ARE CORE!!! There is absolutely no comparison because of this. WFB is the IRS, and core is our tax. This unit makes me happy to pay my taxes! We have a ton of sweet non-core stuff in our army that the Spirit Hosts and Fell Bats compete with. Dire Wolves compete with a bunch of units that are meant to tarpit, bunker, or die (or overpriced Ghouls).

 

[countulrich]

Yeah, if SH and DW were in the same category maybe there could be an argument, but they are core, and they are lovely, lovely amazing core. In a tournament a couple of weekends ago, I was facing another counts player who had mini-Manfred on an abbysal terror. First turn my unit of wolves charged him, directed attacks and him and killed Manfred. I lost the wolves to the terror, but that was a glorious moment ...

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

I want to get some wolves. After my first game, I'm disappointed in the core. Ghouls, Zombies and Skeles all do the same thing = nothing. Just a slow moving bunker for your vampires. No shooting, no movement, no strength, no defense, no abilities, annoying charge limitation, utter crumble in close combat. My entire core selection was literally nothing but a giant ball of "Look out sir!".

So wolves start 24". i guess from the back they might be in range to march right away. Then what? Do I charge a warmachine to distract it for one round while I hope to danse macacabre up the field?

How many can I manage? can i have 5-10 in games up to 2500? Or do i really need a bunch? (i want to convert hobbit fell wargs which are expensive)

 

[Skittelz1981]

Well, i think you need to realize that even wolves belong to the list of crappy core. The point is more; what do you do with your core, how do you play it.

Your zombies/skellies/wolves and even the ghouls to a certain extent are indeed crap and most of the time fail to achieve when it comes to dealing damage.

But then again, that is not why you take them erv:

Your entire core basically is distraction. Use them just like that. You can afford to bump all your zombie and skeleton units and wolves as bait and to grind a few enemies down or at least keep a few nasty units locked for a good part of the fight. Its only 625pts and likely to be 6-8 drops.
By that time, most of your opponents will have nothing left to deploy and thats when youre actually starting.

Your true points are in other things entirely, things you reveal their position usually later on when most opponents have already setup their entire army. Giving you the opportunity to counter his deployment and use that core for just the right thing; making your enemy chop down worthless zombies and wolves that are in the way/blocking/redirecting/tarpitting and messing up his movementgame. Meanwhile, your true hitters (the ones you need to pick the right fights with and be careful with them) are prancing about like happy gays on the Gaypride festival and the enemy is trying to chew through 60 zombies worth 80 points cause you only fielded 40 and raised beyond starting size......

Get that vamplord in the right place, get those crypthorrors against the right target or those Vargheists. Your TG's are flying around and shrieking stuff to pieces while he is still chewing on useless zombies.
Blackknights have room aplenty without fear of flanks from the wrong enemy because.... theyre still chewing on zombies, ram those with their spears in the right place and see magic happen without spells.


Your core is throw away bait, dont hesitate and pitch them in the right place. you dont even need to charge. Place them so that they cant do anything but charge your zombies, making them loose 2-3 turns and then have the next redirect ready.

Ive had more success with VC in playing pointsdenial by using core as a big buffer. Ive had my core last 6 turns (ofc i lost some points in rare and special) but thats 6 turns of combats for my opponent that reap only very meager amount of points.

 

[Blutsauger]

I want to get some wolves. After my first game, I'm disappointed in the core. Ghouls, Zombies and Skeles all do the same thing = nothing. Just a slow moving bunker for your vampires. No shooting, no movement, no strength, no defense, no abilities, annoying charge limitation, utter crumble in close combat. My entire core selection was literally nothing but a giant ball of "Look out sir!".

So wolves start 24". i guess from the back they might be in range to march right away. Then what? Do I charge a warmachine to distract it for one round while I hope to danse macacabre up the field?

How many can I manage? can i have 5-10 in games up to 2500? Or do i really need a bunch? (i want to convert hobbit fell wargs which are expensive)

I run 30 in a 2-3000 point list. I'm thinking about getting another ten.

What I do with them is vanguard them into positions where they can threaten enemy missile troops and warmachines. Now, a lot of enemy missile troops won't be too worried about a unit of dire wolves. They'll get a stand and shoot, usually have a rank, sometimes have a standard, and in many cases will have ASF, or T4, or some other way of stymieing your wolves. In those instances you can either gamble on a charge (if they are a smaller unit, if they have been affected by a spell, or are just a naff unit like Empire handgunners or Skinks or something) or you can just plonk your unit of Wolves in front of them, and force them to take a -2 'To Hit' modifier for any units they want to shoot at.

Against Warmachines the wolves tend to fair much better. Even with ASF or T4 or some other trickery, the Wolves will almost always at least score well enough to remain in combat and keep the guns silent. This is a huge priority for most enemy players since they often rely on their warmachines to take out our heavy hitters. They're combat units simply aren't going to stand up to a unit of Black Knights with a Vampire Lord in their ranks, so the only option they usually have is to pepper it with cannons, stone throwers, bolt throwers, hell blasters or organ guns. If you take those tools away from them, it's usually a very simple job of pushing your units into combat and deleting enemy units.

 

[Mistress Zed]

Well, this thread has made me decide to give my direwolves a second shot. I've only played a few games so far, and the wolves just seemed like free points to the enemy. But, I guess they did tie up a cannon for a bit. I can see their potential. Thanks for the insights!