Are Ghouls too cheap?

[Zaak the Uncanny]

I've just finished the second game of warhammer with my Lizardman brother Fishhead (see Guy in Gunhearts) in which he's quit halfway, declaring that vampires are unbalanced, especially ghouls. Now, don't take this up with him, but I would like to be able to explain to him why they're not. Unfortunately, I'm starting to believe him.

The first battle he quit, I did take a reasonably cheap list (magic heavy, summoned ten tonnes of ghouls). However, this army list I think was balanced. I was winning, and even he admitted that I made better tactical decisions, but he still came out at the end saying that ghouls were under-priced.

Now, Blood Knights, the Drakenhof Banner and the Helm of Command aside, are vampires too cheap? Those things are a given (ninja zombies?!), but other than that are Vampires overly cheesy and under-priced?

I suppose the main issue is Ghouls. They cost very few points (like an infinity sign standing up), but have two poisoned attacks, toughness 4, fearless and cause fear. The only things they have against them are no armor (largely compensated for by the extra toughness) and the fact that they crumble. On top of that though they can be summoned FOR FREE. And don't even mentioning the speed on them with Ghoulkin and Vanhel's...

Does anyone else think that this is extraordinarily cheap? I try to argue with him that the points to summon new ones is included in the Vamps, that ghoulkin and Vanhels cost points else where and that they're a glass hammer, but even these arguments are starting to seem flimsy to me now. Are ghouls too cheap, and if not, why not?

 

[TMS]

On top of that though they can be summoned FOR FREE. And don't even mentioning the speed on them with Ghoulkin and Vanhel's...

There's your problem. Ghouls are fairly priced where they are now but the ability to summon new and unpaid-for ones right out of the ground is unbelievably powerful. The solution I've found to this (as I perceive it) sole unbalancing factor is to simply drop the master summoning powers - now you'll get to use and recycle that which you pay the points for. A unit of 10 Ghouls without the master power around will be hard pressed to get much of anything done, needing a greater starting investment in points. Makes for a much fairer challenge for your opponent to overcome, in my opinion.

I am a little bit surprised by your post though. I've only had terrible luck against Saurus with my own Ghouls, their armour save coupled with the large number of S4 attacks they throw out usually chew through my ghoulies in short order.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I don't take master powers in my army, and i take a unit of 20 ghouls which are known for doing nothing where i play, 20 of them on the charge lost to a unit of 20 night goblins!!! (*grumbles about nets and bad luck*) never mind saurus

Anyway I think they're fairly pointed themselves, but the master powers are very cheap for what they do, Personly i think it should be 15 points just for the +1.

Try playing him without any master powers, see if it makes any diffrence.

 

[Zaak the Uncanny]

Yes, but ghouls absolutely shred through skinks, and with a multi-directional charge by ghouls and black knights they can even crush Saurus.

Also, last battle I never ended up using my master summoning powers. I took 15-strong ghoul squads, and they made mincemeat of him.

I don't know whether it's just him using Skrox (skink/kroxigor) squads, but they've been able to slaughter him thus far. :/

 

[TMS]

Yes, but ghouls absolutely shred through skinks, and with a multi-directional charge by ghouls and black knights they can even crush Saurus.

Well, there's your reward for outmanouvering him.

Edit: Have your friend considered using Scar Veterans mounted on Cold Ones, by the way? If placed in a unit they'd make them immune to the auto-breaking feature of fear.

 

[Falahk]

out of intrest, what does his list normaly look like? and what does your list normaly look like?

 

[Zaak the Uncanny]

Yeah, my brother does use a scar vet on cold one.

These are 1000point lists. I take 2 units of 15 ghouls and 2 units of 5 black knights. I have a magic vampire as my general and a mounted combat lord. He takes two skrox units, 4 terradons, some skink skirmishers, a unit of 15 saurus, the aforementioned scar vet and a lvl 2 skink priest.

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

i take two units of 20 ghouls in my army and my lizardmen playing friend has never complained, though he does take more saurus than skinks. thanks to his armour save his saurus usually does a little better in combat than my ghouls but the poisoned attacks kind of balances it out. Ghouls aren't overpriced, i think its probably your friends list thats the problem, skinks are only slightly better than zombies with an armour save and one skink priest against two vampires means that at least some of your raising spells will definately get through provided you aren't unlucky with your dice rolls. why dont you try swapping armies next time you play and see if its the units you take or the tactics you use that beats your friend?

 

[leo85]

Hmmm 15 x2 ghouls, and 5x2 black knights, with a magic vampire. At 1000 pts theres not much out there that can beat what you got at 1k pts. I love the raising aspect of the new book, I mean a VC lord should be able to summon hordes of undead and that what I really love about the new VC. Being able to raise BK and ghouls with invo makes your list very powerful lol so at 1k games, if it's against your brother you shouldn't be raising stuff at all beyond their starting number nad not even bother raising BK's lol.

 

[FatOlaf]

Are Ghouls too cheap?
Yes, combined with the spam ability, it makes for one hell of an annoying experience for opponents.
They are the norm now in UK tournies and combined with one dice ghoul spamming..

I for one love Skeles and take them for the AS and the ability to take full command and magic banners, no one ever seems to mind this (especially since I seem to be very good at losing this year...:mrgreen

For friendly games I agree with the other posters, drop the master ability and use the ghouls you have...

For tournies, it's fair game.....(even though people will still moan despite the fact they are fielding 12 flamers, oodles of Horrors etc....)

 

[doombunny666]

All lists are unfair it is up to the player to play them in a fair and balanced way Lizards have their own one 4 engines, we have invo spam all armies have a spam technique.

But no i dont consider ghouls underpriced when a Saurus is 11pts...

But then again Im a guy who goes round with a horde of skels chopping at random enemies so dont take my word for it...

 

[Kaladas Harkon]

I also don't agree that Ghouls are too cheap when you can get Dark Elf Spearmen for 6pts each, including the spears.

 

[Gaz Taylor]

I also don't agree that Ghouls are too cheap when you can get Dark Elf Spearmen for 6pts each, including the spears.

But can you summon new units of Dark Elf Spearmen into play or replenish and increase current units?

As mentioned, Ghouls are around the right price but when combined with Spam Raising and being able to produce new units of them, they do become silly. My only complaint about them though is that out of a choice between Skellies and Ghouls, Ghouls will win most of the time due to being 'better'.

 

[Reincus]

Ghouls are better in more situations.

I do run a block of skeletons for the hellfire banner. The flaming attacks are good for anything that has regen, which is quite a lot of models/units these days.

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

But can you summon new units of Dark Elf Spearmen into play or replenish and increase current units?

As mentioned, Ghouls are around the right price but when combined with Spam Raising and being able to produce new units of them, they do become silly. My only complaint about them though is that out of a choice between Skellies and Ghouls, Ghouls will win most of the time due to being 'better'.

you cant produce new units of Ghouls, just increase the size of existing ones with the right master power which we can do with all our core units, and we can raise units back to their original number like Grave Guard and Black Knights and even heal our Vampires and Blood Knights,
when we can do that and Ghouls are one of our only units without some kind of armour/ward save i wouldn't say they are too cheap when combined with our raising ability, the only thing that makes them better than skeletons IMO are their poisoned attacks, T4 is great against little things but against the heavier core troops around they die just as easily as skeletons in armour, maybe more so. our invocation spell is like the power of darkness spell that the Dark Elves have where they get D3+1 extra power dice added to the casters. it only casts on a 4+ as well. raising is our trademark ability

 

[Johnny B]

For friendly games I agree with the other posters, drop the master ability and use the ghouls you have...

I don't feel you should restrict yourself just because your opponent hasn't learned how to fight VCs yet. I'm not advocating full-blown cheese, but you playing with a handicap isn't going to make him a better player. Vamps make more troops, thats our thing and always has been. I suggest your brother tries an Engine or two

A Ghoul spam-raising list is like an all fast cav and Hydras DE list or an all-chariot Beasts list. Its hard, but not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[artisturn]

I don't think ghouls are too cheap but as a VC player I am happy that I can INVO back my ghouls to their starting size or if I am lucky enough past their starting size.

When I bring ghouls I like to start them out at 20 models at the smallest I don't like bringing small units and hope that I can increase the starting size it is too risky if I am unable to increase it is a waste, ghouls just don't last when you bring them in any smaller then 15.

At least that is the experience I have had with them.

 

[flogger474]

I feel that ghouls are too cheap. 8pts for basically an orc with additional HW,... BUT.... W/ poisonous attacks, fear, undead, ability to raise them back up too and past starting size, march before game begins!. W/O musician, Standard bearer, 6+ AS, oh and animosity, lol.

So when it all comes down to it and to my personal experience ghouls are tactically under priced. with a lil' support=brickwall with a bite!!! Never leave home W/O them in competitive environment.


I like to think of ghouls as dirty orcs, lol.

 

[Sception]

I'm not sure whether ghouls are too cheap or skellies too expensive. Magic banner or no, there's no comparison with ghouls being more resilient, way more offensive, and potentially getting a free pregame move. Ghouls at 10 per model, or skellies at 6 per model, or both at 8 per model but with ghouls losing the master ability while skellies keep theirs would all seem to do the trick.

Sadly, who uses such house rules? For now there is what there is, and ghouls outshine our other core block options and are a royal pain to play against in magic heavy armies. If you're a casual player don't take ghouls, or don't take master abilities, or both. If you're a tourney player using a magic heavy list then do take both, and hope you don't face off against daemons, or a lizardmen army with heavy magic defense.

 

[Danceman]

Yes, if used with the mastery power. Otherwise I feel they're quite fairly priced.

Also, allowing yourself not to rely on magic too much is a reward in itself. You still have your IoN spells cast on 4+ which is still good but not overwhelming as it does not allow you to rely on magic in the same way as before.

Cheers, dmn.

 

[Canada Steve]

NOt sure where but someone mentioned that you can wrap round woth ghouls on an attack so the flanks get covered too ??? I cant fidn this anywhere and am not sure if it is right or a house rule ????

 

[TMS]

I've never heard of anything like that being possible with Ghouls, Steve. Wrapping around was a thing of 6th edition and in no way should Ghouls still be able to use it.

 

[Rebel]

I think ghouls are fairly priced, but the Summon Ghouls power is underpriced.
Especially in an army made up of something like 3 small units of 10 ghouls, supported by 2 to 3 summon ghoul casters. I think that summon ghouls is abused in situatuations like these where the player takes the minimum amount of ghouls then spam invocations them.o_o

Without the Master Power I think they're fairly priced, but as Johnny B said, don't give up things so that you're opponent can have an easier game

 

[Grish]

A Ghoul spam-raising list is like an all fast cav and Hydras DE list or an all-chariot Beasts list. Its hard, but not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah, those Damn Beasts With their Core Chariots!!! What's a Vamp to do!? lol

 

[StirogiPerogi]

Ghouls are a great troop choice, but they are far from under-priced.

The toughness 4 and the extra attacks are really good, but ghouls have no command options other than a champ. Poison attacks are really nifty until they run into armor. No options for standards and musicians hurt Ghoul units when they are involved in drawn out combats.

Ghouls are great against low armor,high toughness, and not striking first opponents.
Ghouls are bad in situations where you need combat resolution.
Ghouls will have trouble with any threat that can wipe out the front rank.(This is magnified by not having a standard.)