Are VC over powered?

[Fearful Dave]

Well I've been following a thread on www.warhammer.org.uk for quite a bit and they've been discussing how the VC need to be handy capped in order to be played against. They site the bunker unit of GG. Drakenhoff banner and helm as the primary culprits. I'm thinking of spending a good bit of money on my VC recently to start an army and join a campaign. I intend on fielding GG but staying away from drakenhoff/helm. Will I still be having a hard time finding people to fight against? Should i take up woodelves over VC?

(threat is at...http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=43382&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

 

[ScreamEchoes]

No, ppl just fear all new stuff, where i play the fuss is all about demons now. and soon its something new.

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

Seeing as we can raise and heal everything I think we are a little over powered

Look at all our power dice in a 2000pt match! like 8 or 9, now thats a bit much

 

[ScreamEchoes]

Seeing as we can raise and heal everything I think we are a little over powered

Look at all our power dice in a 2000pt match! like 8 or 9, now thats a bit much

we pay for that kind of heal/raise, and deamons can ditch out more dice easily. And that heal aint overpowered, u cant heal but one wound for our important units. Our core sucks, we cant choose flee reaction.

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

Daemons aren't that over powered, they are very elite. They can't flee either, although Nurgle might be a bit over powered, a unit with a herald IS over powered

blood letters are alright, but with one attack, they can't dish it out that much anymore. Daemonettes are good enough, but still Strength 3. Horrors are not meant for combat, but can shoot bolts quite well (Bolts are scary assed!)

The only really overpowered parts of daemons are their characters, skull taker is far too cheap, but so is Konrad. Epidimius is, as are the blue scribes. The masque isn't all that good, but can be a right pain in the side.

The core choices for daemons remain dull and not that effective.
Thats the same as ours.
Example: They have plague bearers, cost a lot and have a 5+ ward save and poisoned attacks. We have Ghouls, who cost less, have no ward save, have basically the same stats with 1pt less in strenght, but still have poison attacks. Then when they die, we raise them up again. Daemons stay dead

We Crumble, which can be very bad, but is predictable. Daemons are unstable, which can kill all of them at once through a bad instability test, and is not predictable at all.

Oops, that was a bit of a rant...

 

[Skillmatic11]

I just want to point out that you CANNOT compare Skulltaker and Konrad...Konrad can suffer from Stupidity OR Frenzy and at the right time they are both a GREAT hindrance. Secondly, with our Characters...OUR ARMOR SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! everyone only has heavy armor...oh I'm sorry, the one guy, Vlad, who's suppose to be a BEAST in combat, doesn't have armor at all!!!! Neither does his Bonnie, Isabella!
Deamons "Crumble" like we did back in 6th edition. They no longer have to test or go POOF.
What makes VC such a good army is that our opponents have to decided whether or not to Dispel the Raise Dead on his flank/rear that's gonna negate ranks or the curse of years that can take out half a unit. Or do I spend two dice dispelling an ION or a Bound Spell. I've heard people complain about VC since Feb, and I've always say we have the crappiest units stat wise. Our best units are GG and Blood Knights. Everything else is cannon fodder...its a war of attrition. To beat VC you must negate our strength not play to yours....

 

[JohnnyAngel77]

To beat VC you must negate our strength not play to yours....

Agreed. I've had a draw with my Empire against VC and have seem other Empire players beat VC plenty of times now. Every game so far I have heard of an Empire playing against Daemons has been more or less a loss...aka...massacre.

 

[Zephyr]

I never saw VC as overpowered. It's really the same whining every time a new army comes out.
Every army has its strengths and weaknesses and VC have a lot of exploitable weaknesses inlcuding hordes of units with stats even skavenslaves laugh at. If we field a more combar-worthy unit we really have to pay for it.
Daemons and High Elves on the other hand, those I have trouble with. I played against a test-list for Daemons this week and it was an absolute massacre...

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

New armies always look over-powered. People thought Orcs and Goblins were over-powered when the new book came out, but now they're very beatable. They have choppas? Oh no, they still can't hit me. Black Orcs can be scary, but they still aren't great

Pretty soon, the new daemons will be badly re-done (after a fixing FAQ) conpared to the new Dark Elves. Fact.

As for comparing Konrad to Skull Taker, that wasn't the best example
Skull taker is a character killer not a unit killer, but he is the only M4 member of a Khorne unit. Stick him on a Juggernaught (sp?) and he is just not right, a basic 0+ armour save??? Expensive, not too bad, and when he is in a unit of blood cruchers... no comment

Konrad is a unit killer and a hero level character killer, and he buys back his points through hacking apart core units such as Empire soldiers (well in fairness, everything hacks them up) and Orcs and Ogre Bulls (probably the best target to face him with). He probably will take on an Ogre Bruiser and (un)live to tell the tale.
Skull Taker would, in a challenge deffinately. Because that is when he gets his killing blow, is it not?
Its the way we can magicly upgrade Konrad that gives us the edge (casting Miasma of Undeathly Vigour is a great balance tipper), mostly Khorne will have a magic resistance, that can't stop healing units after his basic despell dice are gone. Mixing gods is a whole other story, far too much to get into here

Oops, another rant - I really should stop these

 

[Viking]

I've only got 3 games under my belt but here is my very early take on the army, so take it for what it's worth. Forgive me if this winds up more of a "battle report", I will try to keep this to the point.

I've only played in small , 1k point games against my best friend, who has fielded Ogre Kingdoms each time. We are both still learning the rules before we head over to the local game store to play against a wider field, so we are definitely screwing things up here and there.

He beat me first game, close to a tie (minor victory I suppose, we really aren't keeping track of points so much as just getting our feet wet.) The last two games however, I have fielded different army lists, though I've stuck with atleast 6 power die so I could use magic to the fullest. I've found the Helm to be outrageously useful, the the point of cheesy. Whether it was two ranks of spearwielding Skeletons, Zombies, Ghouls, even Dire Wolves fighting with WS 6 against the Ogres, he's found it nothing but frustrating.

He had no answer for a great weapon wielding Grave Guard unit of 20 strong the second match. Third Match 4 Blood Knights w/ Mounted Vampire ran through his "Death Star" unit of 5 Ironguts + Bruiser (and actually now that I check, I believe he might have fielded a Tyrant "Lord" by accident. Not sure, I haven't paid close attention to his army list.) Mounted vampire set purely up for combat with Dread Knight, Walach's Bloody Hauberk for high armor save, Infinite Hatred, etc. etc.

That was turn one with help of a Van Hel's he couldn't dispel, ran off the table while pursuing, the turn it came back on I van hel's it into the rear of his Ogre Bulls that were mired in combat with some ghouls, and eliminated them pretty handidly. He was expecting me to hang back and summon for the first turn, I decided that engaging him early was the best route, and I was right.

So, while my Killing Blow is useless against him, between Blood Knights mobility, Grave Guard's strength and combat res, healing, and definitely Helm I am finding that he is going to have serious trouble with my army no matter what I field. This isn't even mentioning that I haven't fielded Spirit Hosts or an ethereal vampire to try to keep things even as he is light on magic weapons.

I don't want to keep crushing him because he'll get frustrated at some point (I have a histroy of beating him at most games we play against each other, despite the fact that he memorizes the rules much faster than I. I always get the lion's share of beginner's luck between the two of us.) I am so new that I have no idea how I'd even the army's out, or if that is even necessary, I am just finding that atleast against Ogre Kingdoms, I am not having too difficult a time so long as I build the Vampires strong and stick with a sound strategy. Not that it takes Sun Tzu to say "use blood knights to kill all their units" because that's a pretty easy strategy to employ.

 

[Trevy the Great]

I don't think VC are overpowered...not by a long run. As it's been said, all players complain about new armies, until someone finds a way to beat them. Ours is quite easy; take lots of Magical defense.
As it's been said, our troops suck, and are fairly expensive for their stats. When beaten badly enough, crumbling can kill us even more quickly than simply running away (although all in all I prefer Crumbling). Our characters are expensive and even Close-Combat oriented ones find themselves invariably multi-tasking due to their automatic 1 Lvl. of magic. Our Special characters don't have quite a lot going for them (the exceptions being Konrad and Mannfred) and end up being just slightly more powerful and expensive versions of our normal choices.

 

[N1AK]

In my opinion Vampire Counts are a very competitive list, perhaps a little more so than most. But with that said I think people's opinion of the list exceeds the truth.
Facing an army of fear causing, unbreakable (in effect) and magically boosted troops requires players to play differently. But as long as lists like 2 Stanks & WAlter, 2 Treemen and BSB, SAD Skaven, Thorek Gunlines, Star Dragon & Princes HE etc all exist we are not that bad.
I Think where VC differs a little is our list is virtually all capable, so even our more friendly lists are still effective, where as armies like Empire etc suffer more by taking more balanced lists.

 

[Bug16]

I don't think that VC's are overpowered, they're just more forgiving when it comes to making mistakes during the game.

 

[Falahk]

funny that you linked to TWF.....they are always like that on a new book...as for vampires....the basic Vampire Lord is to good, as is a Darkenhof banner bsb and the abilety to recast dance....

other then that, id say that gw did a good work on the VC(dispite the fact that im not really pleased with most of the new models and the fact that bloodlines went away...)

 

[chris_havoc]

OK I would agree with people that VC are overpowered on some levels. Like the Helm of Commandment is slightly intense. However! I don't think people can really complain about the Drakenhof Banner the thing costs 125 points! That's the same cost of a unit of 14 ghouls + Ghast! Sure regeneration is amazing but seeing now that the Daemoms get it with the Nurgle herald I get the feeling that Games Workshop is starting to give armies a reason to use flaming attacks again. I just have a general disagreement about how people think VC are overpowered. Every time I have played with the Drakenhoff Banner I have lost and every time I've used Grave Guard they fail miserably.

Black knights have ethereal movement which is awesome and killing blow but with only one attack per model big freaking whoop, right!? Blood Knights are amazing, true enough, but they cost so many points and use rare slots! Unlike High Elves we don't have 4 rare slots to play with. Fell bats are probably my favourite unit right now flying AND fear is so awesome I could cry! Bat swarms are pathetic, why take a unit that can fly but only 10"? Skeletons are cool but slow and struggle to hit anything. They are able to take a magic banner though which is nice. Zombies I can't really comment on zombies as I've never really looked into using them as anything but raised dead. Ghouls are my second favourite unit currently they're tough as hell and poisoned attacks are a big advantage! Dire wolves are pretty cool but they count as cavalry so only one wound can be healed and they only have US 1 so if one model dies you don't break ranks. The corpse cart I have never really played with so I can't comment. The varghulf is an amazing flanking unit and really effective if it gets a flank charge on a big unit despite it not breaking ranks it usually does enough damage to not be hit back. I'm not the biggest fan of ethereals for some reason. The black coach seems like a really powerful unit but again it's quite expensive even though it's worth the points it is another rare slot. Grave Guard just don't do it for me but I think it's because I like faster moving units so complaints there may be valid. I think a lot of people focus on obvious things like the drakenhof banner and don't consider it's down side. The helm too is amazing but easily negated by engaging the vampire's bunker unit in combat with flyers making sure not to let the vamp get into combat. Sure the flyers will probably go down but probably stay there for one round of combat at least and that frees up whatever is benefiting from the helm to be more vulnerable to your attacks. I think it's true that people just haven't quite figured out how to cope with the VC yet but they will and soon enough it'll be another army getting the mark of overpowered soon enough. Dark Elves! *COUGH*

 

[Falahk]

Dire wolves are pretty cool but they count as cavalry so only one wound can be healed and they only have US 1 so if one model dies you don't break ranks.

dire wolves are fast cav, thos have US2 per model (unless you could provide me with an FAQ that say otherwise....all rules in the VC book and rule book tell me that one dire wolf has US2)

 

[Lord Fear]

There are some overpowered combinations, it's certainly true. But there are overpowered combos for most armies (2 Steam Tanks, Thorek etc.). The fact our most overpowered combo comes from a pair of magic items is what causes the angst, as when you're facing a pair of Steam Tanks, you know they're there right from the start. If there's a Dragon or special character, you know what you're facing. If you're facing a BSB with Drakenhof Banner bunkering up a Lord with Helm of Command, you only find out about that when combat starts...

 

[Grish]

You can almost bank on the Helm of Command in a tournament game I would think.

It is so ridiculously useful for low WS undead troops it merits an addition to almost all lists.

 

[N.I.B]

I'm always surprised that people keep bringing up the boosted Grave Guard unit, as overpowered. The Drakenhof Banner in a large unit of Black Knights, however...

The new book is stronger than the old one, and probably the new tournament top dog for a while.

Otherwise what N1AK said, especially this part

I Think where VC differs a little is our list is virtually all capable, so even our more friendly lists are still effective, where as armies like Empire etc suffer more by taking more balanced lists.

 

[Lord Roke]

dire wolves are fast cav, thos have US2 per model (unless you could provide me with an FAQ that say otherwise....all rules in the VC book and rule book tell me that one dire wolf has US2)

Fast cav - Yes ... US2 - No ... they are not 'mounts' and they do not have 2 + wounds, sorry only US1.

~Roke

 

[Danceman]

dire wolves are fast cav, thos have US2 per model (unless you could provide me with an FAQ that say otherwise....all rules in the VC book and rule book tell me that one dire wolf has US2)

Fast cav - Yes ... US2 - No ... they are not 'mounts' and they do not have 2 + wounds, sorry only US1.

~Roke

Page 71, in the small rulebook. Dire wolves are indeed US2.

.

VC is a top tier army, of this there is no doubt and we can produce some filthy combination if we feel like it. I believe alot of responsebility is with the VC player when making lists, at least when it comes to friendly games.

 

[ScreamEchoes]

maybe overpowered versus not-updated armies, these new books have all been pretty nasty.

 

[Skillmatic11]

I personally don't use the HELM and I still manage to win...granted I've only played about five games so far, but the helm isn't broken, nothing is overpowered...its just how the games is being designed now oppossed to the last 6th editions books and early 7th ed. The biggest UPGRADE to VC to ME, is that our Vamps now can use magic WITHOUT being a Necrarch. That is the BIGGEST change to me, yet its so subtle....

 

[Nights Thrall]

Hell No! :grin:

 

[Nathanial Von Carstein]

Depends on who you ask. Some friends and I moved from 40k into WHFB. My Vamps so far have been almost unbeatable. But...this is due to my opponent's tactics!

The main complaint is 'fear'. But...this is my opponent's fault.

See, my friends are still drawn to 'shiny'. The big, super-unit. So much so, that they forget their base infantry...or field them in blocks too small to matter. I end up crushing them in combat rez, then auto-break them through fear.

Now, my opponents play Lizardmen, Orcs & Goblins, and Dwarves. I should have significant troubles with them. Base Saurus warriors scare the heck out of me. But, last game, I hit a block of 10 Saurus Warriors, full command, with about 12 Skeletons w/Vampiress and 12 Grave Guard w/Wight Lord BSB, full command on both. I won (barely), he autobroke. I rolled right into his Temple Guard (10) and 2nd Gen. Slaan. Next round, same outcome.

...then I had to listen to complaints about fear.

20 Saurus warriors, alone, would likely have stalled me. Combat rez is brutal.

So...sometimes it's your army. Other times, it's your opponent. Fighting VC is different. You don't win wars of attrition. You need to decisively crush a unit, or it will revive. We break easy, though, under sustained attack.

Honestly, as a VC player, base troops scare me far more then fancy, high-point beasties.
-Nathanial Von Carstein