Aura of Dark Majesty

[lowix]

Aura of Dark Majesty
“All enemy units within 6” of one or more Vampires with the Aura of Dark Majesty suffer a -1 penalty to their Leadership. This penalty is cumulative with any other modifiers.” --- Vampire book

Consider the following situation:

A vampire with Aura of Dark Majesty is within 6” of the opponent’s general that has a leadership of 10, and he is also within 6” of an opponent’s unit with a leadership of 5. Because he is within the radius of Dark Majesty the general’s leadership now becomes 9. Since the unit is also within the 6” of the vampire, it too will be effected by dark majesty and have its leadership reduced by 1. So it can use its own base leadership of 5 -1 =4 or the general’s inspiring presence of 9-1 = 8.

Inspiring presence does not override negatives to leadership. If Doom and Darkness (-3 leadership) is cast on a unit, the unit cannot ignore the spell by using inspiring presence.

This comes up often, and almost everyone who sees this for the first time, says no this doesn’t work. But I ask them to think about for the next time we play and so far everyone on our second time playing has agreed that the aura works this way.

This comes up a lot at tournaments where I don’t have much time to really explain this thoroughly. Is there an easier way I can explain this to someone I haven’t played before?

 

[tinfish]

Wasn't this covered by an FAQ?
Simply showing them that and explaining what it means, should do the job.

Well, you can use his LD, but you still suffer the modifiers, so using his higher LD would mean you test on IE: LD9 -4, rather than LD7 -4.

The penalty is not ignored, but of course the higher leadership of the general, may well increase your odds, despite the modifiers.

Just take your time, make sure you have the FAQ. To be honest I also forgot about that, so I would have made the same mistake and wondered if you were in the wrong (despite me being in the wrong lol)

Complex game with many rules, not easy to remember them all.

 

[lowix]

Thanks I went to the main FAQ and found this.
Page 10 main FAQ 1.5, bottom right corner.
Q. If an enemy unit is affected by the Doom and Darkness spell,
and the unit is within the general’s Inspiring Presence radius, does
the Leadership value conferred by Inspiring Presence suffer the
modifier even if the General is not affected? (Reference)
A: Yes.

 

[Grish]

I think what lowix is getting at is a 'doubling' of the Aura of Dark Majesty in this scenario.

So the General has a LD10, the unit has a LD5. Both the General and the Unit are in range of the Vampire with Aura of Dark Majesty. So the general has a LD of 9, and the unit, 4.

Unit has to take a LD test. So they use the General's LD (9) and get hit with Aura of Dark Majesty to bring it to an 8. This effectively applies the Aura to a unit twice (sort of, but not really).

If you were just in range of the general, no one would argue the LD would be 9 for the affected unit.
If you were just in range of the unit, no one would argue their LD would be 9 as well.

If those are true, I see no reason that their LD shouldn't be 8 if you combine them both.

Haven't seen this one before, but it seems to hold true.

 

[Seelenberührer]

In the example you gave, the unit can't be affected by Aura twice (which seems to be what you're saying), because Aura affects Ld directly. The unit and the general both have their Ld reduced by -1, and then you get to choose whether you want to use their own 5-1=4, or the general's 10-1=9. The Aura doesn't affect Ld tests themselves, only the Ld value.

Interestingly, this means that being within 6" of the enemy general reduces his usefulness for Inspiring Presence across the board, even if enemy units wanting to use his Ld are not within the 6" radius.

 

[lowix]

Just to clarify I'm talking about 2 different enemy units. One unit has the general in it and some other guys. The other unit does not have the general in it. Both the generals unit and the other unit are within 6" of the vamp with the aura. The other unit without the general will have a leadership of general -2.

So far it’s come up in almost every game I've played. But I like to put my general in the middle.

 

[TobiasRathein]

Just to clarify I'm talking about 2 different enemy units. One unit has the general in it and some other guys. The other unit does not have the general in it. Both the generals unit and the other unit are within 6" of the vamp with the aura. The other unit without the general will have a leadership of general -2.

So far it’s come up in almost every game I've played. But I like to put my general in the middle.

Forgive my ignorance, but how exactly does the ability stack?

Essentially what you're saying is it affects the general's unit to impose -1 LD. Then it affects whatever other units are in range, effectively making them -1 LD. What I do not understand is why you think any units testing for LD while using Inspiring Presence take a -2. This is what does not make sense.

Inspiring Presence replaces the effective LD of the unit; as such, it would not inflict double penalities because you are in range of both. I understand how it could, but without the rules specifying this otherwise it inflicts the penalty once, that's all.

 

[Grish]

It does make sense to me.

If the General had Doom and Darkness inflicted on him, then his LD would be 7 and that's the LD that would be passed on to his units. This is confirmed by the FAQ.
-A general passes on his Modified LD value.

If the unit, and not the General, was in range of AoDM then their LD would be at 6. I don't think anyone here would disagree with this. So what we can establish is the General's modified LD, whatever it is, is used for Inspiring Presence and then AoDM kicks in. If you disagree with this let me know, because that would make the AoDM power virtually useless.
-AoDM takes whatever LD the unit has, including a modified General's LD from Inspiring presence, and reduces it by 1.

Now, let's assume there is no Doom and Darkness. if a Vamprie with AoDM is in range of the General's unit, and no other units, AoDM would make the General's LD9, and that's the modified LD that would be spread to all units wishing to use Inspiring Presence.
-AoDM is always in effect. It is on before the General passes on his LD value.

So if you agree with all of the above individually, I see no reason that:
1. AoDM affects the General's Inspiring Presence LD value
2. AoDM stacks on top of any other affect such as Doom and Darkness (or another AoDM)

The part that doesn't 'feel right' is that it affects itself.

If this were the case:

EEE___________EEE
EEE____15in___EGE
_V1____________V2

E=Enemy, G=General, V1 and V2 are both vampires with AoDM, I see no reason why V2 wouldn't affect Inspiring Presence and then V2 lowers it again with his.

 

[Seelenberührer]

For it to stack, it would need to affect both the Ld value itself AND the Ld test itself (i.e. the unit picks up a -1 from the test, and the general picks up a -1 Ld from the affect on the value).

This is an important distinction. When a unit takes a Ld test, they are taking that test against a characteristic. An ability can modify this in one of two ways, either it can modify the test roll itself ("all Ld tests are taken at -1", "suffers a -1 modifier to Ld tests", etc), or it can alter the basic, background Ld against which that test is taken, as in the case of Aura.

Because Inspiring Presence allows you to choose which Ld value to use, you can only be hit by Aura once. Even if it were affecting the roll itself, you would still only be hit once. In order for it to stack it would need to be affecting both static Ld (on the general) and the test roll itself (on the unit).

If you were just in range of the unit, no one would argue their LD would be 9 as well.

I would. If the general is outside the range of the Aura, I don't see how his Ld can be modified by it.

 

[Seelenberührer]

If the unit, and not the General, was in range of AoDM then their LD would be at 6. I don't think anyone here would disagree with this. So what we can establish is the General's modified LD, whatever it is, is used for Inspiring Presence and then AoDM kicks in. If you disagree with this let me know, because that would make the AoDM power virtually useless.
-AoDM takes whatever LD the unit has, including a modified General's LD from Inspiring presence, and reduces it by 1.

Now, let's assume there is no Doom and Darkness. if a Vamprie with AoDM is in range of the General's unit, and no other units, AoDM would make the General's LD9, and that's the modified LD that would be spread to all units wishing to use Inspiring Presence.
-AoDM is always in effect. It is on before the General passes on his LD value.

So if you agree with all of the above individually, I see no reason that:
1. AoDM affects the General's Inspiring Presence LD value
2. AoDM stacks on top of any other affect such as Doom and Darkness (or another AoDM)

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. The problem with this logic, for me, is one of ordering. In order for the Aura to stack, it needs to be a localised "effect" that takes place in a specific order: you would need to determine a -1 modifier to the general BEFORE you determined the Ld value of the unit, rather than at the same time or the other way around.

Whereas I think the Aura is intended to be a constant modifier, rather than an effect, always in operation (y'know, like an "aura"). As such, the Aura is never "applied" at any particular point in the game (in other words, it isn't specifically applied when a test is taken), it is just always in effect. This would mean that it could never take effect on a Ld value that it is already effecting. It also couldn't take effect on something outside the radius.

 

[Mad 'At]

I'm with Lowix and Grish.

The general feels the presence of the vampire and gets frighted (his Ld is lower) the men around him look to him to gain courage, but sees that he is scared and dose not gain as much courage as they would otherwise (his lowered Ld is passed on), but the men around him also feels the presence of the vampire a becomes even more scared (the passed on Ld is lowered even further). Just to give you a fluff description of it :tongue:

Let see it this way (and I know this is pretty much what Grish said, I just want to pinpoint where we disagree).

1) The general is within range of a vampire with AoDM. The generals Ld is lowered form 10 to 9. The unit next to him (which is with 12" of the general but not within 6" of the vampire) is under the effect of Doom and Darkness lowering their Ld from 7 to 4, the FaQ Lowix mentions makes it clear that the unit can use the generals Ld, but that will be lowered by Doom and Darkness aswell. The units Ld is lowered from 9 to 6. Can anyone argue with this?

2) Now replace the Doom and Darkness spell with another vampire with AoMD. AoDM and Doom and Darkness use pretty much the same wording for the effect (...suffer(s) a -x penalty to its/theirs Leadership...). The total effect should therefore be pretty much the same, except that the units Ld is in the end 8. Can anyone argue with this?

3) Now remove the second vampire and move the first to be within range of both the general and the unit. The only difference now is that the penalty on both units is from the same source. I see nothing in the wording of AoDM that would contradict that the penalty would effectively (sort of) take place twice, and thus lowering the Ld of the unit by 2. Can anyone argue with this?

EDIT: I also found this BRB FaQ, page 4:

Q: If a unit taking a Leadership test has a modifier to its
Leadership, will this modifier still apply if the unit uses the generals
Leadership, because of the Inspiring Presence special rule for
example? (p10)
A: Yes.

This replaces Lowix' FaQ in my second point. Though only when taking a Ld test, so the units Ld could be 9 when they aren’t taking a test, so for example when screamed at by a banshee.

 

[Seelenberührer]

I think I argue with that above, and your argument doesn't actually address any of those points. Your description relies on the Aura affecting the static leadership of the general, and then affecting the test itself, which the wording does not give it the ability to do.

The judgment of the FaQ regarding Doom and Darkness seems to imply that the -1 would affect the test itself (which is different from my reading). If the general and the unit were both within range of D+D, would that stack to -6 Ld? I think not. The FAQ just says that it applies also to the general's leadership if they are out of range.

So again, we're back to it only taking place the once, but taking effect whether or not the general is in range of the vampire (which is not what I would take from a strict reading of the book, but seems to be what the FAQ implies).

Furthermore, the book says that while it stacks with any other effects, it seems to rule out stacking with itself - you don't get additional penalties to Ld for having multiple vampires with the Aura in range.

 

[Grish]

So answer these two examples and I'll be happy.
Example 1:
Vampire with AoDM is near a unit (LD7). General is 10" away (LD10). Unit needs to take a test; LD 10 or 9?

Exmaple 2:
Same as above, but Vampire is near the General's unit. Does the LD7 unit, when using Inspiring presence, test on a 10 or 9?

If it "takes place only once" then it should be the same in all cases; is it before or after Inspiring Presence? My answer, is neither; it is always applied. It takes place before and after. Otherwise one of these examples yields the result of 10, which I do not agree with.

Cheers

 

[Seelenberührer]

According to the FAQ, I'd say 9 on both counts (RaW, without the FAQ, I'd have said 10 for example 1). The FAQ permits the effect to modify the General's Ld in the case of the use of Inspiring Presence, rather than permit it to stack.

 

[Fodderboy]

I argued for the double-tap on leadership for the previous book (link) but the consensus on no uncertain terms was that the AoDM modifier was applied only once, in this very same scenario.

I won't be getting the book until I'm gainfully employed, so can anyone tell me if there's a difference in the wording between the two books I should know about?

Everyone screams cheese when you first try to justify it, so talk it through with the TO ahead of time.

 

[Grish]

I would have argued for it then if I had seen it.

If you take the stance that the unit's LD doesn't matter and only the Generals LD matters, then AoDM only would work on units that are:
i) Outside the Generals Inspiring Presence Range
ii) The General.

Anything within range of the Generals IP would simply override this ability, which I do not think is the case. We had a bit of this dicussion on sequencing, and Doom and Darkness was clearly NOT overriden by the generals IP (because it would make it a horrible spell).

I would argue the same here, that IP sequencing had some unintended consequences and this is one of them. So if you agree that AoDM can work on a unit that is inside the general's IP range, then you should (in my opinion) agree that it therefore works After the Generals IP, and Before, and therefore stacks.

 

[TobiasRathein]

It's pretty easy to argue for this either way.

I would play it just like Doom and Darkness. It can affect a unit that is able to use IP, however it does not double stack.

 

[Soren]

I won't be getting the book until I'm gainfully employed, so can anyone tell me if there's a difference in the wording between the two books I should know about?

Here you go:

"All enemy units within 6" of one or more Vampires with the Aura of Dark Majesty suffer a -1 penalty to Leadership. This penalty is cumulative with other modifiers."

 

[unitled]

How about the following situation: I cast doom and darkness on the general and unit, taking then to leadership 7. The unit is in my vampires aura, taking them to leadership 4. On a leadership, this unit uses the general's, leadership. Surely this would take them to six, right?

 

[Seelenberührer]

How about the following situation: I cast doom and darkness on the general and unit, taking then to leadership 7. The unit is in my vampires aura, taking them to leadership 4. On a leadership, this unit uses the general's, leadership. Surely this would take them to six, right?

According to the FAQ, yes.

 

[unitled]

Why is it then different when the first effect is the aura rather than the spell?

 

[Seelenberührer]

Because they're two different effects.

Within the 6" bubble, there are two different things causing modifiers to Ld. These are constantly in effect, but they only become relevant when a Ld test needs to be made. There is the -3 from Doom, and the -1 from Aura, totalling -4.

This is a very different situation from somehow expecting the Aura to apply to the general, and then somehow apply AGAIN for the unit.

Again, this comes down to order of effect. For Aura to stack, the following would need to take place, in the following order:

1. Aura applied to General
2. Unit takes General's leadership
3. Aura applied to modified leadership
4. Test taken

Whereas in actual fact the Aura would be applied to everybody at the same time:
1. Aura applied to General and unit
2. Aura chooses General's modified Ld over their own modified Ld.
3. Test taken.

 

[unitled]

So a unit inside or outside the aura is immune to it as long as they are within range of the general?

In my example, doom and darkness was only in effect on the generals unit, so why can't my leadership 5 unit pick to use the generals modified leadership over their own?

My brain is stuck thinking of it as a subroutine... When the generals leadership is called up by having to take the test, you go back, work it out, then come back to the target unit and modifiers are applied to the returned leadership; in this case, 9 is returned from the general, then the modifier brings it down to 8.

 

[Seelenberührer]

The two routines are in parallel, not in series. Aura applies to everything within the AoE simultaneously, and constantly (i.e. even when you're not taking a test, the unit's Ld is still reduced by -1). Then, due to IP, when the unit is called on to take a test, it gets to choose which Leadership they will use.

For it to work as a subroutine the way you describe, the Aura would need to to have a localised zone of impact, rather than a constant effect, and it would need to affect both the Ld characteristic (of the general) AND the Ld test (taken by the unit) as separate entities.

I do get what you're saying, and it's not totally unreasonable. All I'm saying is that, given current information, I don't think that's how it would go.

EDIT: Where the General is outside the radius of Aura I would interpret the Aura as a kind of sink-hole in the radius of Inspiring Presence - the General's Ld drops by a point where those two radii overlap.

 

[Mad 'At]

Again, this comes down to order of effect. For Aura to stack, the following would need to take place, in the following order:

1. Aura applied to General
2. Unit takes General's leadership
3. Aura applied to modified leadership
4. Test taken

I don't see why you wouldn't do it in this way. At anytime when you want to know the Ld of a unit you have to check for a number of thing. Amongst them is checking it the unit is with range of IP, if yes then you must check what Ld the general currently has. To do that you consult his printed characteristic value and apply any modifiers to it. AoDM is one of those modifiers so if he is within range of the vampire then reduce his Ld value by 1. You also check if the unit has any modifiers to its Ld, if so then apply them the Ld value you wish to use (the highest possible in the unit or if possible the generals). Remember that IP always gives the Ld to units in range, not only when taking a test.

Rather than being something that is applied at a specific time I think AoDM is accounted for at anytime you want to check what Ld a unit has. Of course this is difficult to discuss because GW rules are very unspecific on when you do stuff.